historic timeline?

[grinachu]

Has anyone come up with a best possible timeline for events like the Last Desolation and The Recreance and Dalinar's visions?

One thing that I never understood was that we are led to believe that Taln's imprisonment won the world 4500 years of peace but in fact Dalinar's vision of Nohadon in WOK showed the aftermath of a Desolation. How are both possible?

[PudgyNinja]

Has anyone come up with a best possible timeline for events like the Last Desolation and The Recreance and Dalinar's visions?

One thing that I never understood was that we are led to believe that Taln's imprisonment won the world 4500 years of peace but in fact Dalinar's vision of Nohadon in WOK showed the aftermath of a Desolation. How are both possible?

 

I'm not sure what the conflict is.  Nohadon could have ruled and written that book after any of the Desolations, including the last one that caused the Heralds to break their oaths.

Edited March 12, 2014 by PudgyNinja

[lDanielHolm]

Has anyone come up with a best possible timeline for events like the Last Desolation and The Recreance and Dalinar's visions?

One thing that I never understood was that we are led to believe that Taln's imprisonment won the world 4500 years of peace but in fact Dalinar's vision of Nohadon in WOK showed the aftermath of a Desolation. How are both possible?

Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation. The Heralds in the Prelude discuss the Knights Radiant, an organisation based, at least in part, on Nohadon's The Way of Kings.

[grinachu]

I guess the two different answers I have gotten exemplify my confusion. 

 

if Nohadon lived long before the last Desolation, as you suggest, why does he mention the return of the Heralds in the aftermath of a Desolation? The Heralds should have shown up together with the Desolation. The tech level in the Nohadon's vision is also higher/more than that seen in the Prelude (i.e. rags vs three story tower).

 

Moreover I had assumed that the Prelude bookended the furthest back in time the story was going to go, at least in terms of on-screen presence.  That however is an assumption not an argument. 

 

If Nohadon lived after the last Desolation how did we see the aftermath of a Desolation in the first place? I thought Taln suffering in Damnation prevented any Desolations taking place. 

[xbauks]

I guess the two different answers I have gotten exemplify my confusion. 

 

if Nohadon lived long before the last Desolation, as you suggest, why does he mention the return of the Heralds in the aftermath of a Desolation? The Heralds should have shown up together with the Desolation. The tech level in the Nohadon's vision is also higher/more than that seen in the Prelude (i.e. rags vs three story tower).

 

Moreover I had assumed that the Prelude bookended the furthest back in time the story was going to go, at least in terms of on-screen presence.  That however is an assumption not an argument. 

 

If Nohadon lived after the last Desolation how did we see the aftermath of a Desolation in the first place? I thought Taln suffering in Damnation prevented any Desolations taking place. 

 

It's pretty well established that Nohadon lived a long time before the previous Desolation. He mentions the return of the Heralds because the Heralds come back before every single Desolation. Afterwards, (whether they live or die) they get sent to Damnation (assumed to be Braize) where they are tortured endlessly until they are sent to Roshar for the next Desolation. 

 

As for the technological differences, there are multiple explanations. They had access to surgebinders that the current world did not have. The death of a large majority of the population and the vast amounts of destruction that the Desolations caused could have triggered something like the Dark Ages. 

 

Finally, Nohadon did not live after a Desolation. He lived through one. He was a King before the Desolation began.

[PudgyNinja]

I guess the two different answers I have gotten exemplify my confusion. 

 

if Nohadon lived long before the last Desolation, as you suggest, why does he mention the return of the Heralds in the aftermath of a Desolation? The Heralds should have shown up together with the Desolation. The tech level in the Nohadon's vision is also higher/more than that seen in the Prelude (i.e. rags vs three story tower).

 

Moreover I had assumed that the Prelude bookended the furthest back in time the story was going to go, at least in terms of on-screen presence.  That however is an assumption not an argument. 

 

If Nohadon lived after the last Desolation how did we see the aftermath of a Desolation in the first place? I thought Taln suffering in Damnation prevented any Desolations taking place. 

 

Nohadon mentions the return of the Heralds in the context that they will return for the next Desolation.

 

After each Desolation, the technology base is devastated.  Each time, humanity has to recover.  Sometimes it recovers better than others.

 

Nohadon definitely lived after a Desolation.  That's how we saw the aftermath, in his conversation with Dalinar.  Daniel is likely right that it wasn't the last one.

[grinachu]

It's pretty well established that Nohadon lived a long time before the previous Desolation. He mentions the return of the Heralds because the Heralds come back before every single Desolation. Afterwards, (whether they live or die) they get sent to Damnation (assumed to be Braize) where they are tortured endlessly until they are sent to Roshar for the next Desolation. 

 

As for the technological differences, there are multiple explanations. They had access to surgebinders that the current world did not have. The death of a large majority of the population and the vast amounts of destruction that the Desolations caused could have triggered something like the Dark Ages. 

 

Finally, Nohadon did not live after a Desolation. He lived through one. He was a King before the Desolation began.

 

Thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

 

You are saying Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation, that he was a King and lived through the Desolation in his lifetime.

 

Ok. So where are the Heralds during this Desolation, why was the destruction so spectacular (9 out of 10 die) and why does he talk about the absence of the Heralds as if they have been missing for a long time? 

 

I just find either explanation somewhat lacking....

[DiamondMind]

Thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

 

You are saying Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation, that he was a King and lived through the Desolation in his lifetime.

 

Ok. So where are the Heralds during this Desolation, why was the destruction so spectacular (9 out of 10 die) and why does he talk about the absence of the Heralds as if they have been missing for a long time? 

 

I just find either explanation somewhat lacking....

 

I'm going to quote the relevant passage from the chapter 60 of WoK that I think answers all of these questions...

 

“The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn’t brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again? A world torn by war and squabbling? If we continue as we have, then perhaps we deserve to lose.”

 

So this occurs after the desolation, when the Heralds have already departed. He speaks of the Heralds as coming again a long time in the future because they are currently suffering in Damnation and won't return until the next Desolation. So many people die and the destruction is so bad because Alakavish did something before the Desolation occurred, presumably starting a rebellion of some sort.

Edited March 13, 2014 by DiamondMind

[xbauks]

Thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

 

You are saying Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation, that he was a King and lived through the Desolation in his lifetime.

 

Ok. So where are the Heralds during this Desolation, why was the destruction so spectacular (9 out of 10 die) and why does he talk about the absence of the Heralds as if they have been missing for a long time? 

 

I just find either explanation somewhat lacking....

 

I'll just try to go through the entire vision and pick out the parts that point towards Nohadon having lived before the previous Desolation.

 

 

"The Desolations are well named. I’ve heard initial counts. Eleven years of war, and nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead. Do we even have kingdoms to lead any longer? Sur is gone, I’m sure of it. Tarma, Eiliz, they won’t likely survive. Too many of their people have fallen.”

 

You can infer that the Desolation has only recently passed. Keep in mind that at the end of each Desolation, the Heralds have to go back to Damnation to be tortured until the next Desolation.

 

 

“The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn’t brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again?"

 

 

 

 When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again?

 

Implies that the Heralds already came and have now gone back. Also implies that another Desolation is inevitable. If another Desolation is gong to come, then the Heralds haven't quit just yet.

 

Important Note: No mention was made of the Knights Radiant. Surgebinders are mentioned, but no Knights Radiant are mentioned at all. 

 

From Chapter 59:

 

"There was some old king who came up with all this. Had his wife write it in a book or something. My mother read it. The Radiants based the Ideals on what was written there.”

 

This is almost certainly referring to Nohadon and The Way of Kings. If the Radiants based their Ideals on what was written in tWoK, then they were not formed until after the vision with Dalinar. However, the Radiants are already established during the Prelude. 

 

Conclusion: Nohadon lived atleast 1 Desolation before the Prelude. 

[PudgyNinja]

Thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

 

You are saying Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation, that he was a King and lived through the Desolation in his lifetime.

 

Ok. So where are the Heralds during this Desolation, why was the destruction so spectacular (9 out of 10 die) and why does he talk about the absence of the Heralds as if they have been missing for a long time? 

 

I just find either explanation somewhat lacking....

 

I think it's safe to assume that a 90% casualty rate is typical of a Desolation, not an extraordinary one.

 

The Heralds showed up prior to the Desolation, assisted humanity, fought the forces of evil and, at the end, returned to whence they came, just like they always do.  I don't see a part where he talks about the Heralds as if they weren't there during the Desolation.