Aona/Skai were dead before the first Elantrians came to be

[Mad_Scientist]

Continuing on with my theory threads, I'd like to address some Elantris ideas I have. These theories are related to each other and don't really deserve their own threads, so I'm sticking them together. Let's start with why I think Aona is still hanging around after being killed, and why I think this is important.

Aona's dead, but not gone:

Before Way of Kings was published, Brandon said that we had encountered 4 Shards in his published works, excluding Ruin/Preservation. He later clarified what he meant.

"You've interacted with two directly.

One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.

The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence."

The general consensus on these boards, that I've seen at least, is that Endowment from Warbreaker is one of the two we've met directly(obviously), Odium is the one whose influence we've seen (it killed the Shards on Sel), Skai's Shard is the one whose power we've seen but not met itself, and Aona's Shard is the other one that we've met directly, via the pool near Elantris. This is what I think is the case, and I assume it is such for this theory.

The significence of a certain aspect of that got lost to me though: Aona was dead at the time of Elantris. So how are we interacting with her through the pool?

Now, I know one could say that maybe the interaction with her was the same as the way that Dalinar interacted with Honor, that the pool's voice was just some sort of message left behind by Aona when she died. But I don't think that's the case. The pool responded to what was going on in the present. When the first couple Elantrians were put in the pool, they dissolved. When Raoden was put in and said "not yet," he was able to leave and even had his sanity temporarily restored. (Though I don't know if the sanity restoration was the result of Aona or the result of Raoden's willpower).

In addition, Aona seemed to be very aware of Raoden's struggle and suffering, and his presence in the pool. Honor, on the other hand, didn't even know for sure that anyone would hear his message.

But, I suppose one could wonder why this is even that important. Well, for starters, I think it's an interesting bit of info about the Cosmere. We know Kelsier somehow managed to avoid "going towards the light" after death, but we don't know how precisely. Seeing someone else manage this, especially someone who is actually a former Shard, is intriguing.

It also provides some interesting potential insight into the Elantrian religious beliefs, which the book left vague and mysterious.

The Elantrians worshiped, or at least revered, Aona, aka Domi.

The Elantrians apparantly had a rather curious relationship with the followers of Shu-Korath. This was mentioned in the book itself, with the discussion about the apparant oddity of there being a Korathi chapel built in Elantris itself. More about it was posted Brandon's official site, in some background info given for the Aon Omi jewerly available for purchase.

Before I go any further, I should say that for this theory I assume that the fact that one of the Shards on Sel was a love synonym, and the fact that one of the major religions on that world worshiped a god who's symbol was the Aon for love, and who's entire religion was based on the concept of love, is not a coinidence. Basically, I am certain that Domi and Aona are the same, or at the very least the concept of Domi is based on the people's understanding of Aona.

This brings to light an interested point, though. What little we know of Elantrian religion implies that they worshiped, or at the very least revered, Aona themselves. They also seemed to devote themselves (no pun intented) to following Aona's Shard's purpose, showing love and compassion to everyone.

So why didn't they let anyone know? Why be so secretive about what they believed? You'd think, with them getting along ok with the Korathi church, that at some point they'd come out and say, "Yah, Domi? We actually follow him/her too." But they didn't, and the common people viewed the Elantrians as competing gods, even if the Elantrians themselves didn't seem to care if they were worshipped.

I think the answer is because they didn't want to discuss Domi with anyone, for there were certain things about Domi they didn't want to reveal. Specifically, that she was dead.

Skai/Aona have been dead for a long, long time.

I wish I could find the qoute, but I believe Brandon has confirmed that Aona/Skai died before any of the events of the Elantris. The Reod was not caused by their deaths, in fact, it was just a normal earthquake. I can't find these quotes unfortunately, and if by some chance I prove to be mistaken about them, well, then my ideas here lose some support. But assuming I'm right about those quotes, I think Aona/Skai have been dead since before the very first Elantrians were chosen.

Why? Well, there's the stuff I just mentioned in the previous section, about the Elantrians seemingly not wanting to share what they know about Domi. But there's also the fact that AonDor is only known to have failed once, because of the Reod.

In Mistborn, the death of Preservation didn't seem to have any effects on Allomancy, but the death of Preservation was the death of the mind controling it. The power itself remained intact and unharmed.

In Aona's case, the Shard itself was splintered. I would expect something like this to have some effect on the magic that depends on her power, at least in the immediate aftermath. It would grow weaker, or change in nature slightly, or became unstable. Something. But in all of Raoden's research about AonDor, in all the stories the people had heard about the Elantrians, not once was it ever mentioned that the magic system suffered the slightest hiccup before the earthquake changed the land.

Could Aona have been killed and her Shard splintered without any of the Elantrians noticing it and with no effect on the magic? Maybe. But I have more reasons to believe Aona has been dead for a while.

There's also the fact that the Shaod is set up to occur automatically, without Aona's oversight. Given that it is still happening after her death, that is clear. Now, it's possible that Aona originally picked those who became Elantrians, but then changed the Shaod shortly before she died, so that it would continue to function after her death. But we've heard nothing to indicate that the types people taken by the Shaod changed at any point in time. Could an automatic process have done as good a job at picking people as Aona herself?

Well, maybe she set up the process to be automatic from the start, even while she was alive. But why would she do that? Wouldn't she want to be careful about the people given such divine power?

In thebackgroundfor the Aon Ehe jewerly, we find out that the city of Elantris was not built by the Elantrians. It was already there when the first people settled in Arelon. Sometime after this, the first people were taken by the Shaod.

Why am I bringing that up? Because it indicates that the city was built by Aona herself, quite a while before it was needed. To me, at least, it implies that she was planning ahead, that she was setting things up so that as soon as the first Elantrians were chosen, there would already be a place for them, even if Aona was no longer around to give them one.

I think Aona knew she was going to die, or knew that there was a good chance it would happen, and ensured that her successors, the Elantrians, could devote themselves to the people in her place. I also think that when she was killed, her devotion to her people allowed her to figure out a way to keep her spirit from passing on, so that she could continue to provide some guideance, at least in some small way.

I'm afraid that I don't think I've phrased my thoughts in this thread as well as I wanted to, but it's late, I'm tired, and I want to get it posted. I'll see what other people think.

[Asha'man Logain]

I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'm under the impression that Odium came to Sel killed the Aona and Skai, the resulting battle caused the shard (aona's i think Brandon said) to shatter and cause the Shaod, perhaps even twisting the magic of that world with the Priests who get all disfigured (sorry been a while since i read it).

I of course could be wrong, but this is my general feeling of the events based on what i've read here and other places on the interwebs.

[SOM1else]

I agree with Al, not that your theory doesn't have merit but I have a few theories of my own that I havent posted that heavilly assume Odium killed Aona/Skai and caused the Reod

[Chaos]

I was fairly certain that Brandon said the Reod was just a regular earthquake, but I don't have any proof of this.

Still, Mad Scientist, I think you are, for the most part, right on the ball. The one part I'm not sure about is the part that Aona is "alive". Brandon does equate Shard and Shardholder in his mind--he refers to them both as Shard. So the pool could have been color by Aona's Cognitive aspect, which has simply been carried over after her death. It would still count as direct interaction with her power.

Either way, because I am very confident that the Reod was a regular earthquake, I think this theory is pretty much perfect. The lack of citations is disturbing, but this post effectively sums up what I had already thought.

Plus, come on. There'd be more destruction than just a city if Odium came ten years ago. Granted, we don't much know what happen in Fjordell, but if anything, they seem stronger. I'd expect more destruction, but there isn't much evidence of it. And, of course, if Seons or Skaze are indeed Splinters from Aona and Skai, then logically we have some issues if Odium arrived ten years ago. At least, there are the bigger questions of "what are the Splinters on Sel" that are much more confusing if Odium was recent.

The Dor is a strange thing, and I think it makes more sense if whichever Shard(s) that make up the Dor's power had died a while ago. The Dor is mindless, and has been for some time. Seems to me the logical explanation is that Aona and Skai died long ago.

[SOM1else]

Plus, come on. There'd be more destruction than just a city if Odium came ten years ago. Granted, we don't much know what happen in Fjordell, but if anything, they seem stronger. I'd expect more destruction, but there isn't much evidence of it. And, of course, if Seons or Skaze are indeed Splinters from Aona and Skai, then logically we have some issues if Odium arrived ten years ago. At least, there are the bigger questions of "what are the Splinters on Sel" that are much more confusing if Odium was recent.

Unless his only intention of coming to Sel was to kill Aona/Skai, then Elantris being the only thing destroyed would make sense considering that that is where Aona's well of power is (do those things have a name?) Remember Odium is not Ruin it is Hate/Dishonor his goal isn;t to destroy the other shards planets, it's to kill the shards themselves.

[Chaos]

Unless his only intention of coming to Sel was to kill Aona/Skai, then Elantris being the only thing destroyed would make sense considering that that is where Aona's well of power is (do those things have a name?) Remember Odium is not Ruin it is Hate/Dishonor his goal isn;t to destroy the other shards planets, it's to kill the shards themselves.

We've been calling them Shardpools on the wiki, and I think that's technical enough until we get a more precise term.

I know Odium isn't Ruin, but regardless, a Shard's death would surely have more of an effect than one earthquake.

[Mad_Scientist]

I was fairly certain that Brandon said the Reod was just a regular earthquake, but I don't have any proof of this.

Ah, yah, I remember reading other posts by you mentioning that, it partially inspired this thread. So if it turns out I'm wrong, I'm blaming you!

Still, Mad Scientist, I think you are, for the most part, right on the ball. The one part I'm not sure about is the part that Aona is "alive". Brandon does equate Shard and Shardholder in his mind--he refers to them both as Shard. So the pool could have been color by Aona's Cognitive aspect, which has simply been carried over after her death. It would still count as direct interaction with her power.

I agree that it's a bit unclear as to whether Raoden actually interacted with a sentient mind in the pool, or just a vague shadow left behind by something. His interactions were too short to make any certain judgements. He did think the pool was a living thing, but he wasn't exactly in a position to make perfect judgements at that time. Still, I kind of like the idea of Aona being still alive in a sense, and it fits in with another idea I have.

I have to admit though that pretty much everything I've posted in this thread is on shaky ground. I don't have any real good evidence to point to, so this mostly based on hunches and vague impressions.

[Chaos]

Yup. I'm the one who keeps insisting that somewhere it was said that the Reod was a regular earthquake, so it's all my fault.

Of course, I just asked Mi'ch, and while she doesn't have citations either, she recalls that the Reod was a regular earthquake, and that she is "not for absolute certain", but pretty sure that Odium did not cause the Reod.

So take that for what it's worth.

((For the Alloy release, we will probably have another interview, and so we will try to get a clear answer there, if that happens))

[happyman]

Yup. I'm the one who keeps insisting that somewhere it was said that the Reod was a regular earthquake, so it's all my fault.

Of course, I just asked Mi'ch, and while she doesn't have citations either, she recalls that the Reod was a regular earthquake, and that she is "not for absolute certain", but pretty sure that Odium did not cause the Reod.

So take that for what it's worth.

((For the Alloy release, we will probably have another interview, and so we will try to get a clear answer there, if that happens))

I also believe that Aona and Skai are long dead, and like others, I believe it mostly because the Reod was most analogous to a machine failing. That is, Elantris was created as a machine to fuel Elantrian's power by drawing it from the land. The earthquake happened, and upset this "machine," breaking things in odd ways until it was fixed. Purely a technical issue, the kind of thing that happens when hardware in a computer starts to break down due to simple entropy. There's no evidence of malice in the failure, no technical reason to believe that it was anything other than an earthquake, no attempts to stop the system from working again. There is also no evidence of anything trying to stop the catastrophe. In fact, it sounds exactly like what I would expect in a world where the gods were long dead, but their automatic systems were still in place and running, but without maintenance.

[Mad_Scientist]

I also believe that Aona and Skai are long dead, and like others, I believe it mostly because the Reod was most analogous to a machine failing. That is, Elantris was created as a machine to fuel Elantrian's power by drawing it from the land. The earthquake happened, and upset this "machine," breaking things in odd ways until it was fixed. Purely a technical issue, the kind of thing that happens when hardware in a computer starts to break down due to simple entropy. There's no evidence of malice in the failure, no technical reason to believe that it was anything other than an earthquake, no attempts to stop the system from working again. There is also no evidence of anything trying to stop the catastrophe. In fact, it sounds exactly like what I would expect in a world where the gods were long dead, but their automatic systems were still in place and running, but without maintenance.

Thanks you. I was trying to express that in my post, but I think the way you wrote it out is a lot clearer and more concise.

[Asha'man Logain]

I hesitate to give any import to the pool in Elantris. Going by the annotations that seem to be written at the same time as the text, Brandon does not seem to know himself exactly what the pool was. It certainly does not sound like it has any cosmere wide effects. However, he could have reinterpreted it that way after the Well in Mistborn. I just don't think initially the pool was that important.

EDIT: Cause it's the end of a long shift and I can't spell.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Asha'man Logain

[Mad_Scientist]

I hesitate to give any import to the pool in Elantris. Going by the annotations that seem to be written at the same time as the text, Brandon does not seem to know himself exactly what the pool was. It certainly does not sound like it has any cosmere wide effects. However, he could have reinterpreted it that way after the Well in Mistborn. I just don't think initially the pool was that important.

EDIT: Cause it's the end of a long shift and I can't spell.

I'm trying to remember exactly what the annotations said, but if I recall correctly it was something along the lines of "I first came up with the pool because I wanted to add some mystery to the Elantrian religious beliefs." So yes, when he first conceived it at least, it wasn't as some grand, important thing.

But I also seem to recall a question Brandon got asked in an interview that related to how he came up with his stories and the cosmere aspects of them, and which came first (ie does he first come up with a story element, than create a cosmere background for it, or does he create a cosmere action, then build a story element around it), and he said it was a complicated mixture of both. So I think it's quite possible that the pool was originally just something he thought would be cool, but then became something more.

[happyman]

I'm trying to remember exactly what the annotations said, but if I recall correctly it was something along the lines of "I first came up with the pool because I wanted to add some mystery to the Elantrian religious beliefs." So yes, when he first conceived it at least, it wasn't as some grand, important thing.

But I also seem to recall a question Brandon got asked in an interview that related to how he came up with his stories and the cosmere aspects of them, and which came first (ie does he first come up with a story element, than create a cosmere background for it, or does he create a cosmere action, then build a story element around it), and he said it was a complicated mixture of both. So I think it's quite possible that the pool was originally just something he thought would be cool, but then became something more.

This is entirely plausible. Some of his best plot twists have come from ideas he came up with for technical reasons.

I can't help but feeling, though, like the Elantrian religious beliefs, by the nature of the Cosmere, have to be tied up with the Shards. Even if that's not where the idea started, that's almost certainly where it ended.

[Asha'man Logain]

Yes, that's true it could quite possibly be that. Also with the new Q&A we got, it seems to me implied that Odium did cause the quake, but somehow was there last before there were Seons. So maybe he put some sort of time-bomb like device after shattering Aona? I find it suspicious that he'd blatantly state that the last time Odium was on Sel there were no Seons, but not confirm he didn't cause the earthquake.

I still think the Shards on Sel made the Selians, as seems to be typical on the other worlds.

[Chaos]

My interpretation of that Q&A is this.

Firstly, since the Seons have been around for... well, an indeterminately long time, since no one mentioned the absence of Seons, Aona and Skai were surely dead long before the events of Elantris. And since Odium's trip to Sel was quite short, that implies that Odium did not directly cause the Reod.

I prefer happyman's explanation. It's not that Odium didn't cause the Reod, but if it weren't for his influence, Aona surely would have ensured that the Reod never happened. It's a machine breaking down. Odium did indirectly cause the Reod. It could be because of this complexity that Brandon is hesitant to say one way or another about the earthquake.

[happyman]

Having now read the actual interview, I would say that I am even more convinced that my theory is essentially correct.

Odium contributed to the Reod, in that killing Aona meant Aona's magic system could break down due to simple entropy. No truly complex event has any single cause, and Odium definitely contributed, but if I'm right, it's not that simple. Basic plate tectonics (or whatever causes Earthquakes in the cosmere) would also have contributed, independently of Odium's vital contribution.

Doubtless we'll learn more as time goes on. I'm glad Brandon doesn't tell us everything.

[Squallor]

Is it possible that he went to Sel twice? Once to shatter Aona and Skai, and a second time to cause the Reod? Maybe there were some pesky Elantrians like Galladon interfering with his plans, so he just made a quick stop on Sel to stop their meddling on other planets...

[Chaos]

Is it possible that he went to Sel twice? Once to shatter Aona and Skai, and a second time to cause the Reod? Maybe there were some pesky Elantrians like Galladon interfering with his plans, so he just made a quick stop on Sel to stop their meddling on other planets...

Hum, I suppose it is possible. The quote I found which I hoped to refute your point actually doesn't do that. From the Barnes and Noble Q&A:

I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?

Some world have more than others. You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards. One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.

This is pre-Way of Kings, of course, and combine this with a more detailed list of the four Shards:

You've interacted with two directly.

One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.

The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

I firmly believe Odium is the last one, because we hadn't met it directly, but we sure saw his influence on Elantris's world. So with the first quote, it's clear that Odium was gone by the time of Elantris.

However, that doesn't restrict Odium from going to Sel ten years ago. But I would think if he had, the Letter writer would have mentioned that...

[happyman]

I firmly believe Odium is the last one, because we hadn't met it directly, but we sure saw his influence on Elantris's world. So with the first quote, it's clear that Odium was gone by the time of Elantris.

However, that doesn't restrict Odium from going to Sel ten years ago. But I would think if he had, the Letter writer would have mentioned that...

I'm quite certain that Odium hasn't been to Sel in quite a while. It seems like in the absence of other shards, his very presence would tend to distort people's nature, just by being around, kind of like what we see in WoK. Sel doesn't seem unusually warlike; no more than, say, the real world or the world of Warbreaker.