Speculation: All lashings are based on the gravity surge

[Devo]

Hello, this is my first post here and I've just started diving deep into Sanderson speculation but I wanted to raise the idea that's been kicking around my head as I've seen something multiple times recently:

 

In many places (largely the Coppermind wiki) I have seen statements like the following:

 

"The first Order of the Knights Radiant with the ability to bind Surges gravity and atmospheric pressure. The combination of these two Surges resulted in three separate powers which were known as the Three Lashings.^[11]"

 

Is there some confirmation that the combination of the surges is involved in the lashings? The citations on that statement don't support that directly.

Physics tells me that changing the direction of gravity for something, making 2 things attracted to each other, and making everything more attracted to a certain object would all just be gravity. Despite that, it seems like most people are assuming that both surges work together to be the lashings.

 

Counter-evidence 1:

The other identified proto-Radiants (that's what I'm calling them) have very distinct manifestations of their 2 surges.

 

These examples are from the WoR preview chapters on Tor so I'm putting them in spoiler tags:

Lift:

Growth: growing plants, healing

Friction: removing friction from herself

These 2 powers correspond to her surges but they are not combining to produce an effect.

 

Jasnah:

Transformation: Soulcasting

Transportation: Unknown? She did seem to be able to very easily stay ahead of Shallan when Shallan was searching for her. Wild speculation suggests that transportation magic could be involved.

 

Shallan:

Transformation: Soulcasting

Illumination: Illusions

 

 

 

Counter-evidence 2:

Shallan and Jasnah can both Soulcast and it seems very similar for both of them. This suggests that shared surges manifest the same for those who share them (though I won't rule out surges interacting).

Jasnah's thought that Shallan might have been of the same order implies that their soulcasting is the same and that only the appearance of Pattern proved Shallan was a different order.

 

I think there is very strong evidence that although they may only realize 1 power at first (as some of the examples did), each order had 2 very distinct powers.

 

Implications:

Kaladin has another yet undiscovered power. Logically I would expect atmospheric pressure to affect the weather. It's easy to imagine it could create wind (hence windrunners). Kaladin's vision of riding the storm (and conversation with the Stormfather/Voice in the highstorm) could be related to windrunning. It seems like most orders are named after 1 of their powers and nothing Kaladin has actually done yet really relates to wind.

 

Szeth (who has no spren) might have only 1 surge. Since his power doesn't come from the usual source maybe he isn't from an order and he doesn't have 2 surges. This would flow with the theory that Cultivation can grant surges but not as well just as Ruin and Preservation could imperfectly power their opposite's metallic art.

 

Even if Szeth does have 2 surges the other one could be different from Kaladin's making him I think a Bondsmith. But I'm really not

 

 

[Aminar]

We had this discussion maybe a week and a half ago. There's a word of Brandon that says the binding lashing is pressure. The best example is a WoR spoiler, but the physics of it don't fit with gravity.

Sorry

[Moogle]

Welcome to the forums!

 

 

While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force (or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion--binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmospheric pressure.

 

This is from the Ars Arcanum of TWoK. It's possible the Ars Arcanum is wrong, but you'll need strong evidence to argue against it.

 

If the binding had to do with gravity, this would result in objects being crushed. The force exerted would be enormous, if Szeth's comment about most objects breaking before the bond being broken is anything to go by.

 

Curiously, though, you're right - it doesn't seem that any of the three Lashings are a combination of Gravity and Pressure. Each Lashing seems to use Gravity or Pressure, not both. It makes me curious as to what you can do with both. Combining Transportation and Transformation allows Jasnah to do a ranged Soulcast, so it seems like there should be some synergy.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Devo]

Okay I went back and read the Ars Arcanum. I figured out why I didn't see this before. It's because everywhere on the internet the second surge seems to be referred to as "atmospheric pressure" which doesn't really make sense for sticking things together. Here's the passage (bold emphasis mine):

 

 

A Full Lashing might seem very similar to a Basic Lashing but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force (or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion -- binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have something to do with atmospheric pressure.

 

It seems to me that the surge should be called Adhesion and "atmospheric pressure" treated as an effect caused by Adhesion rather than calling the surge Atmospheric Pressure and treating things sticking together like an effect of pressure (which is deceptive since an outside force like pressure is not the cause of the bond).

 

Which leads me to ask, why do fans call that surge pressure?

 

Edit:

Combining Transportation and Transformation allows Jasnah to do a ranged Soulcast, so it seems like there should be some synergy.

Also, is there evidence of this? Do we know that soulcasting itself isn't capable of this? Shallan's beliefs about soulcasting are incredibly unreliable, and it's also easy to imagine that Jasnah is simply a very talented soulcaster.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Devo

[WeiryWriter]

People generally refer to it as Pressure because that's what Brandon has been calling it in interviews and such.  Also when we were filling in the Surgebinding chart a few months back neither Brandon or Peter said anything about it not being the right name.  Of course they could just not be volunteering that information.

 

I do like the idea  though (you have no idea how much) of the surge actually being called adhesion (Adhe-shun), it fits better with some of the other surge names: Gravita-shun, Fric-shun, Illumina-shun, Transforma-shun, Transporta-shun, and Surface Ten-shun. (Yes I realize that last one is actually canon but it fits!

[FingerstyleFunk]

Okay I went back and read the Ars Arcanum. I figured out why I didn't see this before. It's because everywhere on the internet the second surge seems to be referred to as "atmospheric pressure" which doesn't really make sense for sticking things together. Here's the passage (bold emphasis mine):

 

 

It seems to me that the surge should be called Adhesion and "atmospheric pressure" treated as an effect caused by Adhesion rather than calling the surge Atmospheric Pressure and treating things sticking together like an effect of pressure (which is deceptive since an outside force like pressure is not the cause of the bond).

 

Which leads me to ask, why do fans call that surge pressure?

 

Edit:

Also, is there evidence of this? Do we know that soulcasting itself isn't capable of this? Shallan's beliefs about soulcasting are incredibly unreliable, and it's also easy to imagine that Jasnah is simply a very talented soulcaster.

 

Adhesion doesn't really seem to work, since it's implied that there's more to a Windrunner's powers than just the 3 Lashings. The idea behind a full lashing being a pressure effect is that it creates a vacuum between the objects, which creates the impression of adhesion by manipulating atmospheric pressure. There's WoB on this, too, and someone got an RAFO asking whether that lashing would work in a vacuum.

 

You can find a lot of the info on this in this thread (in the WoR subforum, for those who're spoiler-sensitive:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5836-3-lashes-only-use-the-gravity-surge-–-atmospheric-pressure-surge-abilities-are-not-in-ars-arcanum-wor-updated/

 

I like the idea of Jasnah's ranged soulcasting being a combined-surge effect because it explains why other experienced fabrial-soulcasters can't replicate that effect. They only have access to the one surge that the fabrial is designed to capture. Of course, that's assuming that her ability IS unique, which is far from certain, but the theory overall has a nice ring to it.

[Moogle]

Which leads me to ask, why do fans call that surge pressure?

 

It's probable that the bonds between objects are accomplished by creating a vacuum between them. This would fit with Pressure nicely, and it's also possible that Kaladin created a Pressure shockwave against the Parshendi.

 

 

 

Also, is there evidence of this? Do we know that soulcasting itself isn't capable of this? Shallan's beliefs about soulcasting are incredibly unreliable, and it's also easy to imagine that Jasnah is simply a very talented soulcaster.

 

There is no proof of it, but it's a common theory that makes a lot of sense. People were speculating Jasnah had Transportation because of it long before we had it revealed that Jasnah did in fact have Transportation.

 

Makes me wonder what ranged power Order 8 has that the Stonewards can only do at close range.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Devo]

I'd further promote thinking of it as adhesion because that also makes clear it's connection to binding. There definitely a thematic connection between gravity, adhesion, binding, honorspren, being bound to the ground, binding things together, being bound to an oath, syl says that she is an honorspren which means she binds things. <- Stream of conscience.

 

This actually made me think of something. Honor (the idea and the Shard) is clearly central to the knights radiant. Honorspren bind things. All knights radiant get their powers from a "bond" with a spren.

Honor (the Shard) invests magic through binding. Binding is it's thing. It's natural that honorspren which share a name with Honor would reflect

 

I'd bet my bottom dollar that although spren are not (or at least not all) inherently of Honor, the ability to receive power by Binding to a spren is from Honor. (Just as Preservation didn't invent metal or have any more claim to it than Ruin, but burning metal to obtain power was of Preservation).

 

In fact there's something cosmere-level coming up in my mind. Both Ruin and Preservation were associated with metals. Both of them had bodies that were metals when solid. Both of their magics related to metals and they both were on Scadrial.

 

Perhaps Cultivation and Honor have the same or a similar dichotomy. They are both associated with spren. I might call them the Father and Mother of sprenthough the terms may not be accurate in the usual sense. So maybe they both invest power through spren in different ways, Honor through Binding. That also brings me to wonder if certain spren might actually be part of Honor and Cultivation like Atium is part of Ruin. Could Honorspren be the Cognitive piece of Honor? I think I need to get BS's phone number so I can talk this over with him.

A key part of this theory is that Wyndle calls the Nightwatcher "our Mother" which would make sense if the Nightwatcher is Cultivation (or a manefestation thereof)

[Devo]

The idea behind a full lashing being a pressure effect is that it creates a vacuum between the objects, which creates the impression of adhesion by manipulating atmospheric pressure. There's WoB on this, too, and someone got an RAFO asking whether that lashing would work in a vacuum.

I like the idea of Jasnah's ranged soulcasting being a combined-surge effect because it explains why other experienced fabrial-soulcasters can't replicate that effect. They only have access to the one surge that the fabrial is designed to capture. Of course, that's assuming that her ability IS unique, which is far from certain, but the theory overall has a nice ring to it.

As to the vacuum thing, I'll say I don't think it makes total sense. Once the 2 things are touching, there isn't a vacuum between them. And the Ars Arcanum talks about the 2 things being bound together like they are 1 thing, which is actually a more profound connection that being sucked together by a vacuum.

 

I'm not sure we've seen anyone besides Jasnah and Shallan soulcast, so who's to say it can't be done at range. The ardents are known to be untrustworthy and all recorded material as well.

 

Which makes me think of yet another thing. Ruin could change written text. Just throwing that out there.

[Aminar]

The description is that the items will often break before separating, which a powerful enough suction can reproduce. It isn`t molecular merging, it'sa huge sucyion effect(Noting that there is always space between two objects and the stormlight makes a seal.

[Devo]

The description is that the items will often break before separating, which a powerful enough suction can reproduce. It isn`t molecular merging, it'sa huge sucyion effect(Noting that there is always space between two objects and the stormlight makes a seal.

I still don't think this really holds water. For one, creating a localized vacuum with a stormlight seal is a pretty edge case for a Surge name atmospheric pressure. For another, in the Ars Arcanum bit quoted above the force is called adhesion and is said to be concerned with "binding objects together as if they were one". Atmospheric pressure is mentioned only tangentially as something related.

 

The more logical conclusion is that the basic nature of the power is binding things (see above ranting about how much sense that would make) and that the connection to atmospheric pressure is where the weird side effect comes in. Or it's related on some other axis we can't even guess. I remain convinced that the primary nature of the Surge is adhesion/binding.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Devo

[PorridgeBrick]

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2013

Pocatello Signing Report - Lady Radagu (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Would a full lashing work in a vacuum? If not, is that because it works by creating a vacuum between the lashed objects?

BRANDON SANDERSON

First, good question. The way lashings work, it does have to do with pressure. But I can't go into it. I'm going to have to RAFO that one. Again, good question.

INTERVIEW: Dec 25th, 2010

Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

QUESTION

You've mentioned that each of the smaller glyphs on the inside cover of the The Way of Kings represents a type of magic. Can you tell us how many of these types we've seen so far?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Remember that to get an order of the Knights Radiant you take two of the small glyphs and one of the large glyphs. The large glyph represents a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence, what they call the elements of this world, with two magics attached to it. You have seen the Windrunners, which is the first, top-right glyph, mixed with the two Surges—the forces in this world—attached to it. So you've seen pressure and gravitation as mixed together to form a Windrunner. You have seen one of the other Surges, which is Soulcasting—Transformation—though which other Surges that mixes with to form orders of the Knights Radiant I am not specifically going to say at this time. What else have you seen? Those are the only ones that are overt. But you have seen the effects of others.

The surge is atmospheric pressure.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

The more logical conclusion is that the basic nature of the power is binding things (see above ranting about how much sense that would make) and that the connection to atmospheric pressure is where the weird side effect comes in. Or it's related on some other axis we can't even guess. I remain convinced that the primary nature of the Surge is adhesion/binding.

Porridge's quotes pretty much end the debate but just one last note that the two orders who have the surge are called windrunners and skybreakers. Atmospheric pressure fits quite a bit better with those names than an adhesion/binding surge.

[Devo]

Porridge's quotes pretty much end the debate but just one last note that the two orders who have the surge are called windrunners and skybreakers. Atmospheric pressure fits quite a bit better with those names than an adhesion/binding surge.

Those quotes definitely show that Sanderson is publicly calling it pressure. However based on this: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Knights_Radiant which I would assume has the latest info, windrunners and skybreakers share gravity. It seems that "pressure" is shared with either stonewardens or (more likely imo) Bondsmiths, which would actually support the idea that it has a binding quality.

[Aminar]

What if we're looking at this all wrong. What if Spren can use Surges for their Surgebinders, or act as the touch point and that's how Jasnah range soulcasted.

[KiManiak]

You can find a lot of the info on this in this thread (in the WoR subforum, for those who're spoiler-sensitive:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5836-3-lashes-only-use-the-gravity-surge-–-atmospheric-pressure-surge-abilities-are-not-in-ars-arcanum-wor-updated/

 

 

FingerstyleFunk - Thanks for linking to the post.  

 

Devo - I like the idea of your first post.   Unfortunately, as the link has shown, we did have a discussion similar to this about a week or so ago.  Unless we're ready to start doubting Word of Brandon (and Peter), we know the Surge names (Gravity, Atmospheric Pressure) and we know that the Full Lashing uses Pressure.  

 

There's a number of folks on 17th Shard more gifted in Physics than I, that have provided a lot of evidence to support how Pressure can bind an object (Plus, WoB).

 

Still, upvote for having similar ideas!

[tsquared84]

I've been thinking about this lately wondering how pressure relates to any of the lashings. I didn't think about a vacuum being formed between the two objects. But that would only form a bond along the axis where the two objects where touching.

 

With the vacuum explanation, it seems to me that a force along any axis besides the axis of the bond would cause the two objects to slide apart. For example, a block lashed to a wall would have a very strong bond perpendicular to the wall since one side would have atmospheric pressure applied and the side with the vacuum would have no pressure applied, but since pressure is equal above and below the block, any push down on the block would cause the block to slide down, I think.

 

Interesting way to think about pressure though.

[PorridgeBrick]

Friction will keep them in place, however. The atmospheric pressure presses the objects so tightly together that the friction between them is greatly amplified. That's why suction cups work, even with just a slight pressure differential. With complete vacuum, you could have some really crazy suction.

[Swimmingly]

That suggests that Lift could Slick apart two Full Lashed objects, doesn't it?

[PorridgeBrick]

Yes, it does. But if you added a basic lashing to the full lashing, then it would probably stay better.

[Swimmingly]

Then you wrap duct tape around it. Works just as well, and duct tape lasts longer

[PorridgeBrick]

Doesn't duct tape use friction, though? I do agree with the sentiment.

[Swimmingly]

Adhesive glue - wouldn't that be molecular bonds? Plus the tension of the tape wrapped around several times. Anyway, paint it all with two layer wood fixative and it's molecular bonds for certain.

[PorridgeBrick]

Adhesive glue - wouldn't that be molecular bonds? Plus the tension of the tape wrapped around several times. Anyway, paint it all with two layer wood fixative and it's molecular bonds for certain.

Actually, friction is also partially caused by electrical bonds between the surfaces. As an aside, this all makes me very curious as to how exactly Slicking works, since friction is caused by so many factors and nullifying any of them should have very strange side effects. There's the roughness of the materials, the electrical bonds, and the plastic deformation from the objects being pressed together. The only way I can think of to get rid of those is getting rid of electromagnetism... Which would also make Lift break apart and fall through the floor.

[Swimmingly]

Or let her dissolve walls like Nightblood. She can't do this. Glowing gems let you turn stone into wood into metal. It's good to remember that, at the end of the day, it's magic and does not mesh with every one of our physical laws.