Shardblades work like Hemalurgy

[DoctorWh0m]

First off, seeing as this is my first post on here, I'm not really sure if someone else has already expounded this (frankly fairly weakly conjectured) theory, so if they have, sorry about that.

Anyway, both Shardblades and Hemalurgy work with Spiritwebs, yes? And we know that Shardblades create a bond with the Spiritweb. So what I was thinking is that maybe instead of simply creating a bond, Shardblades (the present-day versions, not Radiantblades), they work more like Hemalurgy and tear off a part of the Spiritweb to create said 'bond', something that could have changed after the Day of Recreance. It would explain why spren, or at least Syl, dislike the blades, as rather than them being representative of Odium or something like that, they are simply fundamentally broken.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I've been thinking something similar. So modern shardblades would be more like Hemalurgy, since they would  bind a part of someone else's spirit web to you. However the original shardblades would be more like Awakening, since I see them as placing part of your spirit web into an object.

[DoctorWh0m]

The very first person to comment on a theory of mine puts it far more eloquently than I did. Somehow, I suspect this will become a pattern.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I wouldn't say that. I just finished reading Warbreaker, so I've been thinking about the comparison of Nightblood to Shardblades. I hadn't thought about the Hemalurgy comparison until I read your post.

[Moogle]

After giving up their Blades and Plate, the Radiants that Dalinar tries to talk to seem to be lost in their own little world and don't respond to him. If they were giving up a part of their soul, it's easy to explain why.

 

There's other explanations, but I like this one. I think it unlikely but plausible.

[Darkarma]

Well the concept isn't bad but the only problems are from my perspective two WoB

 

Don't have the quotes handy but basically, you have to have intent to work Hemalurgy and steal that specific thing when you impale someone. Shard blades seem to only cut everything with no regard for intent other than to call upon them in the first place, its designed specifically to destroy without retaining anything. Though there is similarities given that they both require flowing human blood, thus the relation to the human heart beat.

 

The second of the two WoB is that Hemalurgy is universal it works any where on any world provided you have the right metal (no scadrial metals, just metal) and intent. Just as entropy is universal (this last part is my inference) or actually Hemalurgy is universal because entropy is as well. Generally speaking no two magic systems occupy the same same space. They may be neighbors such as Sel's dominion based magics, or like Roshar Lightweaving and Yolen Lightweaving but there are differences... with Hemalurgy being well omnipresent, it has no close cousins or neighbors to contend with, it has a domain above the rest of the magic systems in that it has the ability to screw with them as its wielders see fit. It sort of fills the entire category of Entropy based magic leaving no room for something like Shardblade to use a similar method.

 

But this is purely opinion/speculation on my part.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I don't think the theory was about how the shadblades cut, but about how they bond to the wielder. I think they are created in much the same way as Awakened objects, in that you place a part of your spiritweb into the blade. The difference is that when the original owners gave up their blades they left them open so that others could use them, because unless I am mistaken an Awakend object only really works for the one that gave it breath. But this leaving them open is how they are more like Hemalurgy, since the second owner would be stealing the spiritweb of the original owner and grafting it to their own spiritweb. Additionally they might cut the way they do because they were given a command like cut spiritwebs. 

[Swimmingly]

Well the concept isn't bad but the only problems are from my perspective two WoB

Don't have the quotes handy but basically, you have to have intent to work Hemalurgy and steal that specific thing when you impale someone. Shard blades seem to only cut everything with no regard for intent other than to call upon them in the first place, its designed specifically to destroy without retaining anything. Though there is similarities given that they both require flowing human blood, thus the relation to the human heart beat.

The second of the two WoB is that Hemalurgy is universal it works any where on any world provided you have the right metal (no scadrial metals, just metal) and intent. Just as entropy is universal (this last part is my inference) or actually Hemalurgy is universal because entropy is as well. Generally speaking no two magic systems occupy the same same space. They may be neighbors such as Sel's dominion based magics, or like Roshar Lightweaving and Yolen Lightweaving but there are differences... with Hemalurgy being well omnipresent, it has no close cousins or neighbors to contend with, it has a domain above the rest of the magic systems in that it has the ability to screw with them as its wielders see fit. It sort of fills the entire category of Entropy based magic leaving no room for something like Shardblade to use a similar method.

But this is purely opinion/speculation on my part.

I think the mechanism can function similarly without being identical. Shardblades seem to be physical objects with Spiritual substance that can be linked to a Spiritweb. It's a lot more restrictive than Hemalurgy, but might just work based on the same cut-and-paste arts and crafts with your soul. Hoid, of course, is king of the kindergarten arts class.

[Morsk]

I like this, and have a related idea. I think the Hemallurgy analogy can explain the "sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal" that Dalinar perceives in the Recreance vision. A spren is bound to a human, and because the human can think, the spren can think in the Physical Realm. But if the human breaks off the piece of soul that the spren's bound to, the spren is just bound to this little thing, not a whole thinking person, and loses the ability to think.

For some reason they don't recover when another person bonds the Blade. It may be that the death is permanent and can't be recovered from. Or just that the new bonds aren't complete enough to allow thinking.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Morsk

[QuantumHarmonix]

Since Syl told Kaladin that she could stop the process, I think it would've been possible for the bonded spren to let go of the blades. If that is true they wouldn't have been killed, just left lost and mindless. I think this because I seem to remember Syl saying that she remembered being bonding before she bonded to Kaladin. So she at least wasn't killed by the Radiants abandonment of their blades. I however don't think she was trapped in the physical realm the whole time because of the following WoR spoiler.

She had to have eventually made it back to Shadesmar or she couldn't have disobeyed the Stormfather when she left to find Kaladin.

 

On a slightly different topic, can a Hemalurgic spike steal an Awakened object? If so, with no spren attached, could you consider a Shardblade a Hemalurgicly stolen Type III Awakened object?

[Aleksiel]

nyway, both Shardblades and Hemalurgy work with Spiritwebs, yes? And we know that Shardblades create a bond with the Spiritweb. So what I was thinking is that maybe instead of simply creating a bond, Shardblades (the present-day versions, not Radiantblades), they work more like Hemalurgy and tear off a part of the Spiritweb to create said 'bond', something that could have changed after the Day of Recreance. It would explain why spren, or at least Syl, dislike the blades, as rather than them being representative of Odium or something like that, they are simply fundamentally broken.

 

 

Can you explain some more, because I don't get the spiritweb reference? Preferably without spoilers, please.

[QuantumHarmonix]

You could read the Spiritweb article on the Coppermind wiki. I don't think it has any spoilers. 

[+Aletus]

I have been really interested in the semi-confirmed statement that Brandon made about hemalurgy being capable of stealing a bound shardblade. But that doesn't make sense to me really - because Hemalurgy, by definition pretty much, kills the stabee, which would produce a bound shardblade, all the same. 

 

And there's this:

 

Objects are not Invested in their original state. They can get invested through an Investiture performed by a Shard or by a human having met the above-mentioned requirements. An Invested object gains magical properties. Examples for invested objects are:

• filled metalminds of a Feruchemist
• a charged Hemalurgic spike (Vin's earring, Wax's earring)
• any Awakened object, especially Nightblood
• Shardplate and Shardblade
• a Forger's Seal

An Invested object usually can't be influenced by another Investiture.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

One thing to consider is that when we talk about Shardblades, that is from an in world perspective where the characters don't know/can't tell the difference. 

 

From a WoB perspective, we do know that there are, at least, 3 different types of Blades thus far in TWoK and we don't know what separates them yet. 

 

I think it'll be very interesting if we get to start learning some of the underlying differences that aren't apparent to in world characters with WoR. I hope that is true. 

 

As to the OP, my only problem with this idea is that would imply that the day of Recreance changed the way part of the magic of Roshar works. We know that the magic systems are set up based on the Shards in residence in conjunction with the world and the people but that they occur pretty naturally. I.e. no conscious thought on the Shard's part. Maybe they could have change the way it works by breaking their oaths on the Day of Recreance. I guess my other issue is that Hemalurgy very forcefully rips part of your Spiritweb away and the person is never the same. Even the "wrong" blade that Dalinar possesses, doesn't seem to permanent harm his Spiritweb as he is able to change and even give up the Blade. It WILL be interesting to see what if any effect that Blade has on Sadaes and his character/actions. 

 

Personally I think it has more to do with the fact that in world character just can't identify the difference between different types of Blades, and so there are blades of Odium that would feel very wrong to an Honorspren. Dalinar's blade is called Oathbringer though... hope we find out where the Blade names come from at some point, i.e. how old are they. Did the Radiant's name their Blades, etc.?

 

It would be interesting to see what Syl's verbal reaction would have been to the Blade/Plate that Kaladin earned initially. His action of rejecting them are part of what drew Syl more to him, I believe, but for the items themselves I don't think we get her reaction to them do we?