Theory: Recreance

[Derksen]

 

 

So here is my theory about the recreance.

After the Heralds abandoned the oath pact and left the people in the Radiants capable hands.

'“They have the Radiants. That will be enough.”'

We believe some time elapsed after the Heralds quit and the recreance happen. In that time I believe the radiants were still fighting parshendi possibly its not like they disappeared and on the day of recreance dalinar is told by his fellows that they are still at war and the knights where fighting on the front lines. Honor having found out that his heralds had quit on him he decides to take another approach and he either talks to odium and makes another deal or he and the radiants actually sit down with the parshendi. Going off of the possibility of him talking to odium, Honor makes a deal that he will die and he will end the knights radiant/ surgebinding if Odium no longer sends his desolations. Honor might either just be killed in battle by trying to do the whole duelling/choosing a warrior thing and fighting himself finally or just lets himself die maybe even in the hopes that odium would pick up his shard to change odium. Odium doesnt pick up the honor shard though. Before tanavast dies though he disbands the knights as part of the deal. He tells them to break their bonds and that doing so will end the desolations and the fighting. maybe the parshendi also agree to this and broke their bonds with the spren as well which is why they loose all their forms which would be very interesting. Then later on after the recreance in order to destroy the knights radiant reputation so that people wont follow in their ways and bring back surgebinding, vorinism, maybe led by a herald even, went in and destroyed/ altered lots of records of the knights. Doing all of this in order to prevent surgebinding from returning. Somewhere along the lines nalan is told/ or thought it up himself to stop surgebinders, and the parshendi, while they weren't told, see that surgebinding coming back is a bad sign. The parshendi even go so far as to kill their friend on the treaty night, to somehow keep their old gods from coming back. 

Going back to the recreance or The day the knights quit. They were a solemn bunch. There was no anger or despair that would come from just being sick and tired of fighting. Or cheering that they won the war. They just very solemnly took off their gear in sight of the people. They purposely went to the rear guard and took off their gear. This is what leads me to think someone told them to do it and to quit in a visible way. They could have gone and hidden their gear and made sure no one picked it up. They didn't though. Why ending surgebinding would correlate with the desolations I am not sure and I dont know if there is another thread about it. I am just trying to understand why tanavast died and Honor was split, and why the knights disbanded. They were all honorable and had to go through rigorous training so its not like they were of weak character and give up like the heralds. Im not saying the heralds had weak character the difference being heralds lived for a long long time while as far as we know being a surgebinder gave you abilities but you still lived a normal life and still died. Its not like they had a millennia to wear down their souls from torture. Also all of the knights were disbanded at once. It wasn't over the course of time starting with the orders that fought then the orders that did other stuff. It was all at once, or thats how dalinar has heard of it. He always refers to it as that day singular. Just not enough facts yet.

Or Honor, thinking of another way, ends the knights radiant and kills himself in order to make Odium lose his enemy and will not think of the rosharians as a threat. 

This is quite a bit of guess work but it is just something that i have wondered about. It had sounded more... sound in my head but now that it is typed out i'm not sure if it holds together as well anymore. I was going to find quotes but I don't have the time to do that right now.

So pick away or add to it. Have at it.

points

-Honor told the knights to disban

-surgebinding correlates to desolations

-parshendi are no longer a threat

 

[hoser]

Welcome! Introductory upvote!

 

Paragraphs are your friend. I like the bullet points at the end. 

 

At the end, in Dalinar's last vision, Honor seemingly says something like "Odium has killed me".  How does that fit?

[Aether]

You are making a lot of assumptions here, but I have to admit that I like the general feel of it, and that it does fit. I noticed on little hiccup, though:

Also all of the knights were disbanded at once. It wasn't over the course of time starting with the orders that fought then the orders that did other stuff. It was all at once, or thats how dalinar has heard of it. He always refers to it as that day singular.

Consider Honour's opening comments:

 

"They were the first," the Radiant said, turning to Dalinar. Dalinar recognized the depth of that voice. It was the voice that always spoke to him in these visions. "They were the first, but also the last".

"They were the first" does seem to imply that this was only the first happening where Radiants abandoned forsook their Oaths and abandoned their Shards. I interpret the "but also the last" part to mean that these were the last true Radiants.

 

Even though Vorin sources might be tainted in a lot of ways, the common "knowledge" that the Knights Radiant was an evil organization does fit with the implication that some of the Orders (or at least individual members of the Orders) went rogue and misused their powers, instead of abandoning their shards and powers as the Windrunners and Stonewards did at Feverstone Keep. I am not sure conceding this point would change much of your over-all theory, though.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Aether

[Arondell]

Or Honor, thinking of another way, ends the knights radiant and kills himself in order to make Odium lose his enemy and will not think of the rosharians as a threat. 

 

This part I find a little hard to accept.  The nature of the shards tends to cause their holders to become rather monomaniacal.  I think after all the time Tanavast had held the shard of Honor he would probably of been incapable of breaking an oath or ordering others to break their oaths.  It would be counter to the purpose of Honor.

 

Much like Laras the original holder of Preservation was incapable of actually fighting Ruin since to do so would have been counter to the purpose of Preservation.

[DefiantBurrito]

I like the idea of Tanavast sacrificing himself somehow - it seems like the type of thing the holder of Honor would do, and it also sort of explains how Honor knew of his impending death and was able to prepare for it by leaving messages in the Highstorms.

 

I'm not quite sure about Tanavast agreeing to end Surgebinding as a condition of stopping Odium.  It seems like if Tanavast was directly involved in ending Surgebinding, he would have left more direct information about the link between Surgebindings and Desolations in his messages to the future.  Tanavast's advice is "Unite them" and "Choose a champion".... he could have easily said, "Don't let anyone become a Surgebinder" if it was really that simple.

[The Count]

You are making a lot of assumptions here, but I have to admit that I like the general feel of it, and that it does fit. I noticed on little hiccup, though:

Consider Honour's opening comments:

 

"They were the first" does seem to imply that this was only the first happening where Radiants abandoned forsook their Oaths and abandoned their Shards. I interpret the "but also the last" part to mean that these were the last true Radiants.

Interesting, I always considered Honor's comments slightly differently:

As in... They were the first of the KR orders to exist, and the last to give up their oaths... implying that the Windrunners and Stonewards were the most stalwart in their duty.

After all... not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren... lol.

I think both interpretations work.

[Aether]

Interesting, I always considered Honor's comments slightly differently:

As in... They were the first of the KR orders to exist, and the last to give up their oaths... implying that the Windrunners and Stonewards were the most stalwart in their duty.

After all... not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren... lol.

I think both interpretations work.

This... makes sense as well. Poetically so, I might add. But if they were the last to forsake their Oaths and shards, why would the people at Feverstone be so confused by it? If they were really noticeably more stalwart than other Knights Radiant, then they would have to have held on to them much longer than others, making it likely that the guards at the Keep would at least have heard rumours of similar events.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Aether

[Awesomeness Summoned]

This... makes sense as well. Poetically so, I might add. But if they were the last to forsake their Oaths and shards, why would the people at Feverstone be so confused by it? If they were really noticeably more stalwart than other Knights Radiant, then they would have to have held on to them much longer than others, making it likely that the guards at the Keep would at least have heard rumours of similar events.

Perhaps the other orders abandoned their posts in a "quieter" manner than those two did. They could have just left their shards behind in places where they wouldn't have been discovered right away. The general public would notice that the numbers of KR joining the fights had diminished but might not have realized right away it was only the windrunners and stonewards showing up. All they cared about was that KR were fighting. Those two orders were the only orders to discard their shards in such a spectacular manner that obviously showed they were quitting.

[DocHoliday]

You are making a lot of assumptions here, but I have to admit that I like the general feel of it, and that it does fit. I noticed on little hiccup, though:

Consider Honour's opening comments:

 

"They were the first" does seem to imply that this was only the first happening where Radiants abandoned forsook their Oaths and abandoned their Shards. I interpret the "but also the last" part to mean that these were the last true Radiants.

 

Even though Vorin sources might be tainted in a lot of ways, the common "knowledge" that the Knights Radiant was an evil organization does fit with the implication that some of the Orders (or at least individual members of the Orders) went rogue and misused their powers, instead of abandoning their shards and powers as the Windrunners and Stonewards did at Feverstone Keep. I am not sure conceding this point would change much of your over-all theory, though.

They were the first, I think, is the first to lay down the Shards. And the last I think, it's that they were AMONG the last Radiants. No more spren were allowed/willing to bond with people after this betrayal.

 

Edited for grammar.

Edited February 2, 2014 by DocHoliday

[xbauks]

I was going to make a new thread for my theory but it just seems more convenient to put it here. <WoR Spoilers ahead!>

 

Here are the things we know from the books/excerprts. 

1. The KR were still fighting some force when the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their shards. (most probably the Parshendi)

2. Sometime after this, the Parshendi are enslaved and (speculation) all of them are turned into slaveform (Parshmen).

(Alternate theory: The children are born as slaveform. As they age, they learn to change into the different forms.)

3. Only the Stonewards and Windrunners are shown to have abandoned their shards.

4. Nohadon says "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honourspren."

5. From the excerpts, Jasnah tells Shallan "There is a complex sort of conflict between [the Cryptics] and the Honourspren."

6. The Almighty tells Dalinar "I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible."

 

Theory: Some orders of the KR came up with a plan to enslave the Parshendi. This would be opposed by the Windrunners, and perhaps even some of the others (including Stonewards) . To avoid conflict, atleast the Windrunners and Stonewards were kept in the dark about these plans. When the Windrunners and Stonewards found out about the plan to enslave the Parshendi, they revolted. They broke the Nahel Bond and gave up their shards.

 

(Speculation: Perhaps the Honourspren told the Windrunners  that if enough of the Nahel Bonds are broken simultaneously, it would create a strong enough disruption in Shadesmar to break ALL the Nahel Bonds. Thus hopefully stopping the enslavement of the Parshendi.)