Kyzkle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 So here's a fun quote: “Without the bond, I am basically one of them,” [syl] said. “Though they don’t have the capacity to do what we do. And what we do is important. So important that I left everything, defying the Stormfather, to come. You saw him. In the storm.” That means that the Stormfather is probably an active entity in Shadesmar. My bet is that he's some type of spren, like the Nightwatcher or Cusicesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'm in favor of the Stormfather being a Splinter of Honor, myself. ... which would make him a spren, I guess. Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 My bet is that he's some type of spren, like the Nightwatcher or Cusicesh. I'm not buying the Nightwatcher is a spren nonsense Jasnah keeps dropping. Seems like a serious case of misinformation to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Jack Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Traditionally, the Stormfather is always Jezrien. If he's at the helm of their leadership, then it make some sense why the honorsprens have decided to sit at the sidelines.Most of the Heralds are very anti-KR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbug Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'm getting a stormfather is to honorspren as nightwatcher is to wyndle spren. That is, the stormfather and the nightwatcher are splinters, of honor and cultivation, respectively. So, the honorspren (as in the spren of the honor orders) and the cultivationspren (as in the spren of the cultivation orders) regard these big spren as patriarchs or leaders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Most of the Heralds are very anti-KR. I'm not sure how much foundation you've got for that statement. So far, we have one, maybe two, presumed Heralds that are. Seems a little premature to say "most". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummi Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I don't think heralds were against KR , I mean didn't Jasanah said that the helped KR in their training ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 That was before the Recreance. Now.... Reread the Lift interlude with Nalan, the Herald, as Darkness. That's a common theory. Also see Ym's interlude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macen Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think this whole business supports this theory. If it does, mad props go out to FirstSelector. Becuase I never would have thought outside the box like that.Jezrien holding a piece of the shard when he thinks that the KR coming will bring another desolation would make sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 If honor died his shard are up to take, Kelsier taked preservation shard temporaly, maybe something take honor shard he too. After all raw investidure are veryyyyyy dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I don't see how Jezrien could have taken up the whole of Honor. A Shardholder dieing is very different from shattering a Shard. It's the difference between holding a sheet of glass and a thousand splinters. Now a splitter of Honor is something different entirely. I've been toying with this idea though... Jasnah Jam( I love this term) had to have a Cognitive Aspect in order for her to Transform it. Considering it wasn't anything near real jam, I feel that this indicates there is a Cognitive Aspect for everything in the Cosmere. Does that mean that there is a Cognitive Aspect for Tanavast holding Honor in the Cognitive Realm? If so, does it exist in Kaladin's time? If so, is this the fabled Stormfather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 My problem with Jezrien being the stormfather is that he abandoned the oath pact, so I don't see him jumping back on the bandwagon so to speak. I suppose that the remaining heralds could still be trying to help in their own way, but I think they were all too broken to take up that kind of burden. My theory is that the stormfather is one of the unique large type spren, like Cusicesh, and it created honor spren out of the spren it would have been most familiar with, i.e windspren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSelector Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thanks for the support, Macen! DocHoliday, there is a big difference - there's WoB that Splintering a Shard takes considerable time even after the Shardholder is dead. In this case, Tanavast could have died, Honor started splintering, and Jezrien picked up the largest piece. In the language of your analogy, the glass pane breaks on the edges, but there is still a large piece left in the center. Quantumharmonix, even though he gave up the Oathpact, Jezrien would have almost certainly known of the dangers of Honor's power being let loose - look at Sel. In fact, if we consider that Jezrien wanted to believe that the Oathpact would still hold with just Talenel and if we assume that the breaking of the Oathpact is what allowed Odium to kill Tanavast, then perhaps he realized his mistake and worked to correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 If Jezrien was Cosmere aware enough to know about Sel and still quit, that says something about his mental state at the end of the oath pact. I always got from the prelude that he hopes the honor pact will hold, but doesn't truly care anymore. I suppose that when Honor was splintered he could have realized his mistake and tried to fix it. I just don't think we know enough about him to be very confident that would happen, especially given the odd behavior of the other suspected Heralds. It just seems odd to me that the honorspren would take orders from a Herald. For one Honor told Dalinar that the bonding spren were a surprise, which I don't see as possible if the spren were following orders from the Heralds. I could see it being a surprise if the spren started bonding first, then started following the Heralds. But then given the spren's ability to hold a grudge with ordinary humans for the KR's betrayal, I cant see them forgiving a Herald that abandoned Honor. So I don't see it as likely that the spren would currently be following a Herald's instructions. Personally I like how the Stormfather being a spren could explain honorspren being cousins to the windspren. It also seems likely to me that if spren have cities, then they might also have different methods of governing themselves as well. So the honorspren would have something like a monarchy, with the Stormfather as their ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyzkle Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 What if all of the "megaspren" are actually shards of Honor? We have WoB that raw investiture is very dangerous, and the reason Shadesmar is safer on Roshar than Sel has something to do with a "release valve" for all that energy. We've been assuming that the since the spren are so much more common than Seons, they are what allows the energy to slowly bleed away. What if we've got that all wrong, and the NIghtwatcher, Cusicesh, and the Stormfather are actually all spren that have taken up some of Honor's power? Spren are nothing more than ideas given life, so why can't power be given life in the same way? I don't buy that the Stormfather is Jezrien, simply because it makes no sense for him to want to get back into the game after breaking the Oathpact. And why would he want to provide power for surgebinding when most of the heralds want to keep surgebinding away? The Darkness quote that is used for evidence seems to me to support the theory that the drunked man in the prologue is Jezrien. It fits nicely with the corruption of the Heralds theory as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 And why would he want to provide power for surgebinding when most of the heralds want to keep surgebinding away? Read Syl's discussion with Kaladin again. She specifically said that the Stormfather forbade the Honourspren from returning to the Physical Realm. And Jezrien being a blabbering and drooling fool fits with the idea of him passing his consciousness over to the Cognitive Realm. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 WOB says that one herald returned and picked up their Honorblade. Jezrien could be the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 WOB says that one herald returned and picked up their Honorblade. Jezrien could be the one. I think it's Darkness (Nalan). I'm also pretty convinced Szeth has Jezrien's blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Thorn Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I don't buy that the Stormfather is Jezrien, simply because it makes no sense for him to want to get back into the game after breaking the Oathpact. And why would he want to provide power for surgebinding when most of the heralds want to keep surgebinding away? The Darkness quote that is used for evidence seems to me to support the theory that the drunked man in the prologue is Jezrien. It fits nicely with the corruption of the Heralds theory as well. I am going to have to call you out here. To use a metaphor, suppose you are against the idea of prepubescent children being molested and raped; most people are. A god comes to you and offers to make a deal with you; every day you spend with him in hell is a day that no child molestation occurs on Earth. So you spend several centuries in hell having tea parties, and collating tax returns, and watching late-night religious infomercials, whatever. Not ideal, but bearable. Then something changes and the god you made the deal with opens the Viva la Vivisection Day Spa and Resort and has you booked there for the next three eternities. After approximately a millennium of this you have recalculated the cost benefit analysis of the bargain. This does not mean you are now pro-child rape. You are probably STILL anti-child rape; you are just slightly more anti-getting tortured to death every day for the next several centuries. --- They did not decide to "get out of the game" they decided the torture had to stop. Also note that they helped stop the Last Desolation BEFORE surrendering their swords to get out of the torture. So I get the impression a world where the Desolation continued/succeeded is not a place they want to be. So if one of the Heralds had a way to help thwart Odium that did NOT require consecutive centuries of torture, I do not see then saying no just because they had let of their Honorblades. Please note that "Wielder of the Honorblade, Upholder of the Oathpact, Odium's Torture Butt-Monkey" and "Stormfather" are different jobs, with different job requirements. Refusal to perform one job does not imply refusal of the other. (edited for spelling/typos/punctuation) Edited January 23, 2014 by Bramble Thorn 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Please note that "Wielder of the Honorblade, Upholder of the Oathpact, Odium's Torture Butt-Monkey" and "Stormfather" are different jobs, with different job requirements. Refusal to perform one job does not imply refusal of the other. When I pick myself up of the floor I'll +1 this 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I think it's Darkness (Nalan). I'm also pretty convinced Szeth has Jezrien's blade. My thoughts exactly. Assumption: Heralds have a Nahel bond to the Shard Honor (from the Purelike vision, where Tanavast says he was surprised when spren wanted to emulate what he did with the Heralds and so the KR were born). New theory: * Heralds abandon the Oathpact. They tell everyone that was the Last Desolation. Honor is not splintered. * KR do their KR stuff, even though there are no more Desolations coming. * Jezrien goes back for his Honorblade. Then he goes to the KR and tells them the truth. The KR get upset and severe their bonds. * Honor is shattered. Jezrien is the only Herald with a "live" connection to Honor. His mind gets broken when the Splintering occurs. * The Shin take care of Jezrien, which is now drooling, his mind lost. They have his Blade. It ends up at Szeth. EDIT: The Shin knew/know the truth from Jezrien. Being truthless has something to do with Jezrien, and the Last Desolation not being the Last Desolation, the Voidbringers not being permanently defeated, something along this lines. Edited January 23, 2014 by marianmi 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Well said, marianmi. I still don't find myself fully convinced, but there are definitely pieces of it that I like a lot. This is a very well-reasoned theory. Edited January 23, 2014 by ccstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) WOB says that one herald returned and picked up their Honorblade. Ooh, that's pretty awesome. Link please? I was starting to think that maybe the Stormfather was the Splinter that Jezrien held as a Herald before the breaking of the Oathpact, and that it became an independent spren and king of a city in Shadesmar afterwards. But Jezrien retaking his Honorblade and remaining as a Herald and as Stormfather also sounds cool. Edited January 25, 2014 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Ooh, that's pretty awesome. Link please? Here it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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