Aoibheann Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) So I've always been struck by how "cheerful" the "voidbinding" chart is. It's always seemed that the "surgebinding" chart is much darker and ominous. I'm starting this as a new thread because I didn't want to necro Bloodfalcon's Theory on "Voidbinding" Chart. WoB says there are 30 different magic systems at work on Roshar, or 10 with 3 different ways to access each. It's pretty easy to see the connection between the Heralds around the Surgebinding chart and Honor. I'm pretty sure that I've seen a quote about Honor "creating" the Heralds. With the Lift Interlude we know Cultivation = Nightwatcher. I believe the stained glass "Voidbinding" chart on the back endpage is really the Cultivation/Nightwatcher chart. The Surges are the same/similar and achieved/accessed via Cultivation rather than Honor. Both charts would show KR orders, and the double eye of the Almighty. Does anyone know of the confirmation via WoB that it was the voidbinding chart? or did we just assume it because we thought of Voidbinding vs. Surgebinding? edited for grammar (and an incomplete sentence). Edited January 8, 2014 by Aoibheann 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) There is nothing establishing that it is a voidbinding chart. It is simply common belief. Edited January 8, 2014 by Shardlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironeyes Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Is the chart online somewhere? I don't have the hardback version of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strife Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Here's a good picture of it:http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2559-surges-and-voids/ I also really dig this theory based upon nothing other than gut feeling and that the "void" chart has a cultivation feel to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The radiant/surge/Honor chart can be found at: http://coppermind.net/wiki/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg The Cultivation chart (I'm going to start calling it this): http://coppermind.net/wiki/File:TWoK_Rear_Endsheet.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Glad someone else is as interested in this topic as I am There are so many clues just in the artwork of the pages that suggest it is an overlap of sorts, but Cultivation's version. My problem is that I have no idea what voidbinding is. It could mean anything. That chart could be a voidbinding chart, and behave in that overlap way. Maybe voidbinding is just surgebinding via Cultivation's method. Maybe it is different terminology for soulcasting? Hard to guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strife Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) My problem is that I have no idea what voidbinding is. It could mean anything. That chart could be a voidbinding chart, and behave in that overlap way. Maybe voidbinding is just surgebinding via Cultivation's method. Maybe it is different terminology for soulcasting? Hard to guess. That's true, but everything in tWoK hints that void = bad. This doesn't have to be true, Sanderson as we all know likes to throw curveballs and surprise reader with what they think they know. A question at OP (sorry but your name is too hard to spell ) though, is it confirmed that Nightwatcher = Cultivation? From reading the Lift interlude, it certainly hints at it, but do we know for sure? Edited January 9, 2014 by Strife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 There's only one quote I know which discusses Voidbinding (rather than the voidbringers): (page 285 kindle) The problem, bright one," Kadash said, "was mysticism. The priests claimed that common men could not understand religion or the Almighty. Where there should be openness, there was smoke and whispers. The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." The only person we've met who seems to be trying to divine the future is Taravangian. There is probably something missing from Kadash's version of Voidbinding. This is (I assume) corrupted by the Hierocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Perhaps I overstated the situation with the Nightwatcher = Cultivation comment. I hope I'm not guilty of being errorgant. Shardlet's theory is convincing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rooster Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The only thing is that both of Lift 's surges are on the "honor chart" and her order is for sure all about cultivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The only thing is that both of Lift 's surges are on the "honor chart" and her order is for sure all about cultivation. It's not written in stone that surgebinding via honor chart and cultivation chart would be distinguishable in this way. Brandon said their are different ways of accessing the magic, but the 10 circles on each could line up where the orders are represented on both. There are a ton of ways it could be interpreted considering we have 0 known facts on that "Cultivation/Voidbinding/Animal/Spren" chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 There's only one quote I know which discusses Voidbinding (rather than the voidbringers): (page 285 kindle) The only person we've met who seems to be trying to divine the future is Taravangian. There is probably something missing from Kadash's version of Voidbinding. This is (I assume) corrupted by the Hierocracy. We do know that Cultivation was good at seeing the future. Voidbinding being hers might make sense, in light of the quote saying that voidbinding was seeing the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 We do know that Cultivation was good at seeing the future. Voidbinding being hers might make sense, in light of the quote saying that voidbinding was seeing the future. Good point. We've also seen (what we think to be) Cultivation's work labelled as Voidbinding in the Lift interlude. It was mentioned there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cad Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I think we put too much into the idea that seeing the future is bad. That stems from the Vorin religion, whose theology is majorly flawed. I don't think that voidbinding has anything to do with Cultivation because of the nomenclature. It's quite possible that Odium is good at seeing the future, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Perhaps I overstated the situation with the Nightwatcher = Cultivation comment. I hope I'm not guilty of being errorgant. Shardlet's theory is convincing. Upvote for your discipleship and the plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 @Shardlet - You're welcome! @ AG Rooster - Someone had a thread which I can't find at the moment (Anyone help me???) This thread tied together the front chart and back chart and point out that the surges on each were very similar with some rotation to the chart. If we assume that these charts show two different ways of accessing the same surges... @Moogle If Taravangian killing bunches of people to try to see the future is related to voidbinding, that's bad. I would say he's been corrupted. We don't know yet that he's a voidbinder, But I don't think he's related to Cultivation. @Bloodfalcon. - Lift claims Wyndle is a voidbringer, but Wyndle denies it, multiple times. I tend to believe the spren rather than the child who tells people she is 10 years old because any age over 10 is unlucky. I'm not saying Lift is stupid, I'm saying she's very superstitious and not well educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hey Aiobheann, since you gave such a good invitation here is a shameless plug for a couple theories I am fond of that compare the two groups of chart symbols. Cultivation's corruption The Tanavallah Others noticed the asymmetry before me, I first saw it through the image below. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 @ AG Rooster - Someone had a thread which I can't find at the moment (Anyone help me???) This thread tied together the front chart and back chart and point out that the surges on each were very similar with some rotation to the chart. If we assume that these charts show two different ways of accessing the same surges... Although I can't find the topic atm, I'll back you up on that. I remember that thread and it compared the rotation as you said. One thing though about the only mention of voidbinding specifically...Szeth does mention that Voidbringers were able to hold Stormlight perfectly. Humans obviously can't, so.... In any event, I think there's a bit more going on than Odium v Cultivation/Honor. At one time perhaps the three may have not been trying to kill each other, although it's been verified that Odium wants to be the only Shard now. With that in mind, it would make sense to me that the Shard-related magic on Roshar might overlap and feed or interact in some way with each other. Three types of magic, three types of Shardblades, and three Shards. @Bloodfalcon. - Lift claims Wyndle is a voidbringer, but Wyndle denies it, multiple times. I tend to believe the spren rather than the child who tells people she is 10 years old because any age over 10 is unlucky. I'm not saying Lift is stupid, I'm saying she's very superstitious and not well educated. Something I took away from that, although I think you're right, is that Lift didn't really think being a Voidbringer was bad, per se. It may have been a bad joke or maybe she didn't know that many in most of Roshar considered Voidbringers as the embodiment of evil, but it's strange she was alright with the idea of Wyndle being a Voidbringer. The thought of it really didn't disgust or scare her at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Studying the 'void bringer' chart, it seems to me that it's Cultivation's way of accessing the surges. Not only is the picture of a woman (Cultivation?) surrounding the chart on the four sides (where in the Honor chart it has the faces of the heralds), but if we are to believe the Cultivation/Nightwatcher theory (which I think is fairly well founded), then flipping one of the sides to get the corresponding surge image makes a great deal of sense (it goes well with providing both yin and yang so to speak, a blessing and a curse). If that's true, then I'd be interested to see what Odium's access chart looks like… upside down symbols? Inverted colouring? One other thing that popped out at me. Szeth says that voidbringers were said to hold stormlight perfectly. I don't think I want to put this forward as a theory because I don't like it, but follow this chain of thought: In WoR, Kaladin is learning to hold stormlight much better, to the point that he is holding small amounts almost subconsciously. This would hint that he is on the way to holding it perfectly. This hints that he is becoming a void binder, and Syl is tricking him, not actually being an Honorspren. Darkness is actually doing a good work by preventing surge binders from binding false honorspren. The betrayal is something to do with real honorspren being mistaken and scorned? Maybe? I don't like it though... While I'm at this, is there a thread about the thrill being related to taking in stormlight? The effects seem similar, and it could go a long way toward recognizing potential surgebinders among the soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraefzke Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) How about this: I have somewhere read the theory that there were five Cultivation orders and five Honor orders of KR. It may be, however, that each order had C-access to one surge and H-access to the other, with no overlaps (e.g. Shallan would be soulcasting via C with her other surge accessed via H and Jasnah would have a C-surge and H-soulcasting). I hope I'm making sense and apologize if not. Edited January 13, 2014 by kraefzke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) @Moogle If Taravangian killing bunches of people to try to see the future is related to voidbinding, that's bad. I would say he's been corrupted. We don't know yet that he's a voidbinder, But I don't think he's related to Cultivation. Cultivation and Ruin supposedly are very close together in Intent, though I can't find the WoB. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that because Taravangian's doing some questionable things that Cultivation isn't involved. He did seek out the Old Magic. Edited January 13, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Can the gem/stone behind the cultivation/void binding chart be the one that Gavilar had? Edited January 13, 2014 by don_karma_II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 @ AG Rooster - Someone had a thread which I can't find at the moment (Anyone help me???) This thread tied together the front chart and back chart and point out that the surges on each were very similar with some rotation to the chart. If we assume that these charts show two different ways of accessing the same surges... @Bloodfalcon. - Lift claims Wyndle is a voidbringer, but Wyndle denies it, multiple times. I tend to believe the spren rather than the child who tells people she is 10 years old because any age over 10 is unlucky. I'm not saying Lift is stupid, I'm saying she's very superstitious and not well educated. I think you are thinking of the thread that I started that you linked above. I mentioned in my crazy rant that they are all flipped (most of them the same way except for 2 if I recall), but the images pasted above by Isomere are like 8000x better explanation than my quick note. And I don't think Lift is a Voidbrinder, I'm saying we are seeing what we have all assumed to be Cultivation's work being mislabeled as Voidbinding. It's possible we haven't seen any Voidbinding yet and it is whatever power produces Midnight Essences and Thunderclasts. I'm kind of starting to believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneward Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 This mostly just speculation, but has there been much discussion as to the identity of the woman on this chart? Compared to the surgebinding chart, she takes the place of all heralds, so she must be important. I think it's likely that the image is a Vorin interpretation of Cultivation. We don't have any idea what she looks like, at this point, but it doesn't seem to be anyone else we've met so far. Jasnah and Shallan both have the wrong hair color. Jasnah has black (onyx) hair, and Shallan has red. Also, being contemporary to the book, they are very unlikely to be found on an old, stained glass window. We can probably rule out anyone born in the last hundred years or so. We don't have many descriptions of the heralds, but I suppose it could be one of them. Assuming that the defining characteristics of the heralds are fairly standard between the stone carvings (chapter heading images) and the chart: Woman Flowing Hair Large Gem on the Forhead The closest match would be Shallash, and Baxil's mistress is described as having dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. (Of course, you can't really trust the looks of anyone with the Illumination surge and a motive to hide their identity.) I also find it interesting that the woman is pictured with her safehand covered. The artist may have included that detail because they were Vorin, and incorporated their religious views into the image, but it's also possible that this person (possibly Cultivation) is the reason behind covering safehands in the first place. Thoughts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 This mostly just speculation, but has there been much discussion as to the identity of the woman on this chart? Compared to the surgebinding chart, she takes the place of all heralds, so she must be important. I think it's likely that the image is a Vorin interpretation of Cultivation. We don't have any idea what she looks like, at this point, but it doesn't seem to be anyone else we've met so far. Jasnah and Shallan both have the wrong hair color. Jasnah has black (onyx) hair, and Shallan has red. Also, being contemporary to the book, they are very unlikely to be found on an old, stained glass window. We can probably rule out anyone born in the last hundred years or so. We don't have many descriptions of the heralds, but I suppose it could be one of them. Assuming that the defining characteristics of the heralds are fairly standard between the stone carvings (chapter heading images) and the chart: Woman Flowing Hair Large Gem on the Forhead The closest match would be Shallash, and Baxil's mistress is described as having dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. (Of course, you can't really trust the looks of anyone with the Illumination surge and a motive to hide their identity.) I also find it interesting that the woman is pictured with her safehand covered. The artist may have included that detail because they were Vorin, and incorporated their religious views into the image, but it's also possible that this person (possibly Cultivation) is the reason behind covering safehands in the first place. Thoughts? In the thread that OP posted in the initial post, I explained that that was the theory I was going with. It is an image of Cultivation, and the safe hand tradition, whether or not that was it's purpose for Cultivation, comes from that image. Apparently those two images are on stained glass windows somewhere, but it has been my belief that that was a clue - not an origin. I don't think they were originally stained glass windows unless they are in the Tranquiline Halls or something like that. Either way I think it was meant to hint that the Vorin religion is based on those charts and many of the traditions have come from drawings and that sort of thing. Pretty sure you aren't looking at Jasnah or Shallan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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