Travis1984 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Long time lurker and self proclaimed aficionado of modern day science fiction that falls under the category of: "Great writing as determined by me." I had a bit of a light bulb moment when perusing the thread on Radiants and Spren, and I'm not sure if I've seen the question asked...what role did the Spren play in the Day of Recreance, and what were they and the KR trying to accomplish? Rarely do we see an act such as what occurred happen for no reason. I theorize that the KR (and their Spren) gave up both sentience, power, and shards in an attempt to keep a desolation from returning. I'm on my phone so you will have to take me at my word or look up the quotes yourself, but let's look at some evidence. I'll start with the lynch pin for me. In the other KR/Spren thread, Brandon answers a question concerning Spren sentience. He states something to the effect that some could become sentient but for the choices they made... What choice? To save the world? I think so. Something has happened to allow the Nahel Bond to begin again...was this what the par agenda were trying to stop? By living the codes and preaching the way of kings, you were asking for the KR to rise again, taking back the power to stop the desolation. Darkness also states that they are messing with powers that could bring about a desolation. Wyndle talks about his people ...which implies more then sentience... Anyways my finger is tired, and I didn't proof read. Good luck, and thanks for reading! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 It explains the KR's actions, but it doesn't quite explain why they left their Shards for regular men to use and murder with, and why they didn't tell anyone why they gave them up. Their inability to communicate reminds me of Honor being purposefully obtuse. Maybe there's a connection there? I think the theory is the best fit for the evidence as it stands. KR gave up their Shards in order to prevent another Desolation. A darker side to this theory is that they might have committed mass suicide, though it would probably be easier for their spren to give up the bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis1984 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm not sure if I can fully extrapolate bit I'll let the community think... KR gave up shards (presumably to achieve a greater good)... Syl states the shards are evil (more or less)... Armor doesn't glow anymore... Could Darkness evil be attributed to his Shard Blade? Szeths? Have the shards been tainted by odium ala WoT style? I lie awake at night... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Welcome! Great question! Upvote! Yes, the quote from Brandon about the number of sentient spren being limited by choices spren have made suggests to me that at least some of the Nahel Bond spren created a barrier of sorts to the Nahel Bond. Is it similar to Darkness's quest to prevent desolations? How does this grouping of spren relate to Wyndle's "Ring"? Has something happened to this hypothetical barrier? Could it have been whatever inspired Szeth to do whatever he is being punished for? Could it have been whatever Szeth did? Could it have been what the Parshendi tried (and apparently failed?) to stop Gavilar from doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis1984 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Welcome! Great question! Upvote! Yes, the quote from Brandon about the number of sentient spren being limited by choices spren have made suggests to me that at least some of the Nahel Bond spren created a barrier of sorts to the Nahel Bond. Is it similar to Darkness's quest to prevent desolations? How does this grouping of spren relate to Wyndle's "Ring"? Has something happened to this hypothetical barrier? Could it have been whatever inspired Szeth to do whatever he is being punished for? Could it have been whatever Szeth did? Could it have been what the Parshendi tried (and apparently failed?) to stop Gavilar from doing? Purely speculation, but I see Darkness as an individual who's sense of right and wrong is warped by odiums taint. He doesn't even realize he's being influenced... A you elaborate on Wyndles ring...that isn't "ringing" a bell. I'd feel pretty confident saying the parshendi were trying to prevent the return on the KR... I'm not sure they are the gods...but maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) This could make sense. But i have some doubts, because something don't fit in this history. The Radiants, deliberately, dropped their armors in a place that others would take why do that if their objective are end their orders? And more Honor said that the only thing that could prevent the world end are the Radiants, so why disband in the first place, if they are the sole human hope, something are off here. Also Brandon said that the motives that made the radiants drop their armors aren't necessarily because their discovered the heralds treason (not interelly). They ended their Order with something in mind, some plan but until now i don't see anything that would explain their decision and actions, the best that I got is that Odium could have "tainted" in some way the nahel bond, or something else (the thrill) forcing the Radiants to disband to not be used against mankind. Upvote for you Welcome =) Edited January 8, 2014 by Natans 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Your wish, P...A you elaborate on Wyndles ring...that isn't "ringing" a bell. from the Tor version of the Lift interlude: But no, the Ring said we should choose you. ‘She has visited the Old Magic,’ they said. ‘Our mother has blessed her,’ they said. ‘She will be young, and we can mold her,’ they said. Well they don’t have to put up with—” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaussian Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Given the evidence that we have, I would first assume that the Radiants ran into something that suggested that the desolations were not over, and from that concluded that the Heralds had betrayed humanity. This then led to a considerable amount of discussion as to why the Heralds abandoned humanity, with the final conclusion being that humanity was no longer worth saving or protecting , that they had fallen too far and deserved to be destroyed. This would be an easy conclusion to come to when the knights lived lives of honor that required personal sacrifice for the greater good, and such a life is only a few steps removed from pride. Perhaps the knights had gotten too caught up in their own world and had thus lost unity with the rest of humanity. At any rate, once they made this conclusion they abandoned their shards, and felt even more justified in their decision in seeing how humanity immediately began to use the shards to destroy. Unite them is therefore honor's plea, as only if humanity are united, including the knights radiant, will they be able to have the strength they need to withstand the desolations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis1984 Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Interesting conclusion. It has merit, because I'm confused why they had to do what they did where they did it in the manner in which it was done. I would still argue that the Radiants discovered the betrayal of the Heralds , and so there actions were not as you suggest, a slap in the face, but instead a last effort to prevent future desolations. Otherwise, if humans were to just be destroyed, the desolations would have just continued and BS wouldn't have a book to write! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Hm... I can't believe nobody said this ... but: Black Ajah? What if there was a Black Order? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaussian Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Are you implying that they took leadership and misled all of the knights? Dalinar's vision doesn't suggest dissonance between the knights that would be expected if evil knights were fighting good knights. Also a black order seems unlikely in a magic system where the power you have is based on your actions, so only the truly honorable would gain the magic to become a knight radiant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 To become Aes Sedai you had to swear the 3 oaths, enforced by an oath rod. However, Black Ajah found a way to bypass that, and influence the path of the Aes Sedai with small things. Plus - the power you GAIN is based on your actions ... once you gained the power (e.g. become full radiant) it's not clear that you can lose your power if you behave differently. Maybe depends on the spren, but we've seen spren can be corrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Wow! Just wow! To become Aes Sedai you had to swear the 3 oaths, enforced by an oath rod. However, Black Ajah found a way to bypass that, and influence the path of the Aes Sedai with small things. Plus - the power you GAIN is based on your actions ... once you gained the power (e.g. become full radiant) it's not clear that you can lose your power if you behave differently. Maybe depends on the spren, but we've seen spren can be corrupted. If the Knight started acting poorly, I would think the spren might break the bond. But if they became corrupted together? The glyphs and glowing seem like they would come out wrong, but maybe those too can be faked via lightweaving or by corrupting the armor. The hardest part might be dealing with all the post-Honor spren so they didn't give your emotions away. Edited January 8, 2014 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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