Theory on Nicrosil Feruchemy

[Sasukerinnegan]

Here is my theory

Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum clearly states that Nicrosil stores Investiture. But the form of this storage has not been clarified by Brandon. Nor have any indications been given to what Nicrosil exactly does. I have a theory and I think it is a pretty good one.

 

I believe it works like a coppermind. A coppermind stores memories, so does Nicrosil store Investitures. The investiture can be stored for later use. Now the applications of Nicrosil are then mindboggling, if u think about it. Since nicrosil stores Investiture, so it can store any (and I do mean any!) type of Investiture. This can easily be a means of storing any form of Allomancy, Feruchemy, Breath, Stormlight, Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Forging etc.

 

Next, a Lord Ruler type Individual can then Compound nearly any Allomancy or Feruchemy.

Steps to do this:

Store 50% of said ability whether allomancy or feruchemy

Burn nicrosil used for the feruchemy

U get 500% the original ability temporarily.

 

Finally, consider the implications for a Worldhopper

We have WoB that it is not possible for a person to possess two or more forms of Surgebinding at the same time. I suspect the reason has to do with Investitural density, that there is only so much Investiture that one can hold. But suppose the person stored said ability entirely within nicrosil, then stored other abilities in other nicrosil bracelets. Then a person could tap into whatever Investiture he wished at will, effectively creating a Lord Ruler like Radiant. Add voidbinding and other forms of Investiture to the mix, you could effectively create some sort of all powerful Investiturist. Interestingly, Hoid is known to wield lightweaving, and suspected of possessing feruchemy and breath. He is known to possess a bead of Lerasium. Probably he has other Investitures as well (some sort of time dilation method, immortality). Maybe he's used some such method???

 

What do you guys think?

[Oudeis]

That's a very possible answer, but feels overpowered. Also it's stated in the Ars Arcanum of Alloy of Law that Soulbearers don't fully understand what feruchemical nicrosil does; if it was as simple as you suggest, they would probably have a handle on it by now.

 

Not to mention, in order to GET these powers so that one could begin storing them, one would need an awful lot of hemalurgic spikes.

 

It's one more interesting theory on a way to create one super-powered being, but that's what doesn't jive with the rest of the cosmere. Mr. Sanderson's magic systems all seem to be about finding balance, making it so someone who uses Investiture has an inherent weakness built in so that magic users have a tool at their disposal but aren't inherently superior to a normal person.

[Shardlet]

I agree with Darnam for the most part.  If you do not have allomancy investiture, then you could not reasonably store allomancy investiture, etc.  As an alternative, I could see storing an investiture you do have (which is then stored as generic investiture rather than as allomantic investiture, for example), worldhoppong to another world, and drawing on that stored investiture which is then filtered, as it were, by the realmatics of the planet you are now on and being able to thus use that stored investiture to operate local magics.

[Oudeis]

Interesting... but if you store your ability to use feruchemical nicrosil, you would lack the ability to tap feruchemical nicrosil. You'd basically be locking a key inside a box.

[Swimmingly]

That's a very possible answer, but feels overpowered. Also it's stated in the Ars Arcanum of Alloy of Law that Soulbearers don't fully understand what feruchemical nicrosil does; if it was as simple as you suggest, they would probably have a handle on it by now.

 

Not to mention, in order to GET these powers so that one could begin storing them, one would need an awful lot of hemalurgic spikes.

 

It's one more interesting theory on a way to create one super-powered being, but that's what doesn't jive with the rest of the cosmere. Mr. Sanderson's magic systems all seem to be about finding balance, making it so someone who uses Investiture has an inherent weakness built in so that magic users have a tool at their disposal but aren't inherently superior to a normal person.

The thing about Scadrian Investiture is that, barring hemalurgy, Mistborness and fullmetal feruchemy (Feruchemist as opposed to Ferring), you generally only have access to a single type of Investiture. A Nicrosil Ferring, if he is not Twinborn, has no access to Investiture to store - hence the difficulties.

[Swimmingly]

Interesting... but if you store your ability to use feruchemical nicrosil, you would lack the ability to tap feruchemical nicrosil. You'd basically be locking a key inside a box.

I'm not certain, but I think the genetic ability to store and tap metals is not actually Investiture. Stormlight and the body of Preservation are both sources of raw Investiture. I think the ability to store things would more likely fall under Identity. 

[Sasukerinnegan]

That's a very possible answer, but feels overpowered. Also it's stated in the Ars Arcanum of Alloy of Law that Soulbearers don't fully understand what feruchemical nicrosil does; if it was as simple as you suggest, they would probably have a handle on it by now.

 

Not to mention, in order to GET these powers so that one could begin storing them, one would need an awful lot of hemalurgic spikes.

 

It's one more interesting theory on a way to create one super-powered being, but that's what doesn't jive with the rest of the cosmere. Mr. Sanderson's magic systems all seem to be about finding balance, making it so someone who uses Investiture has an inherent weakness built in so that magic users have a tool at their disposal but aren't inherently superior to a normal person.

I can't agree with this statement. If you think about it, not one of Mr Sanderson's cosmere novels features a main POV character without some form of investiture. Also, Vin kills 400 people in a single night with Zane's help, Kaladin fights an entire Parshendi army singlehandedly, and Shardbearers kill 100s of people in a war. A normal person would find it near impossible to defeat them no matter what they did.

 

 

I agree with Darnam for the most part.  If you do not have allomancy investiture, then you could not reasonably store allomancy investiture, etc.  As an alternative, I could see storing an investiture you do have (which is then stored as generic investiture rather than as allomantic investiture, for example), worldhoppong to another world, and drawing on that stored investiture which is then filtered, as it were, by the realmatics of the planet you are now on and being able to thus use that stored investiture to operate local magics.

 

But then how would it be decided which Investiture of local planet the final result would be? Also note, other than Selish Investitures, none of the others are that regional, they can practically be used anywhere.

 

Interesting... but if you store your ability to use feruchemical nicrosil, you would lack the ability to tap feruchemical nicrosil. You'd basically be locking a key inside a box.

 

The important thing to note here is that partial storage is still very much possible. Also note, alloys like Duralumin have no application on their own and are only useful with other abilities. The difference here between duralumin and nicrosil is that duralumin provides the sum of stored allomancy in a near instant while nicrosil actually stores allomancy, thus making it possible for a twinborn/ lord ruler type allomancer to boost their abilities temporarily way beyond the sum. Also the individual can adjust and change the duration of use. This theory would also concur with the mistborn RPG, where nicrosil is shown to have a duralumin like effect.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Sasukerinnegan

[Shardlet]

But then how would it be decided which Investiture of local planet the final result would be?

 

No idea whatsoever.  I was just tossing out a potential alternative/variation on the OP.

 

 

Also note, other than Selish Investitures, none of the others are that regional, they can practically be used anywhere.

 

Ah, but only if you have that particular investiture.

[Oudeis]

I can't agree with this statement. If you think about it, not one of Mr Sanderson's cosmere novels features a main POV character without some form of investiture. Also, Vin kills 400 people in a single night with Zane's help, Kaladin fights an entire Parshendi army singlehandedly, and Shardbearers kill 100s of people in a war. A normal person would find it near impossible to defeat them no matter what they did.

 

If your only metric is direct combat, then I concur (though you inflated a few of the situations). Though keep in mind, without using Investiture, Kaladin DID, in fact, kill a Shardbearer. Vin, without atium, killed Zane, who was burning it. Yes, many main characters have Investiture, because it is a unique attribute of his worlds, and it is best shown via point-of-view (having Dox watch Kell fly around the city wouldn't have half the impact of showing Kell himself experiencing the feeling of plummeting through the mist). But even the main characters will, not infrequently, show how bad-chull they are by using their knowledge or skill when their Investiture fails them.

 

But direct combat isn't the only metric by which to measure how 'powerful' someone is. Even with ultimate Mistborn power, Elend is a far more effective leader than combatant. Dalinar uses his 'powers' to dig a latrine, and is one of the most powerful agents in the book due to his conviction and honor.

 

So yes, against NPCs and minions, people with Investiture are bad-chull, because that's a good visual. But if you know a lot about a system of Investiture, you can usually exploit its weakness. And the worlds aren't a cage-match; many of his books are driven by people like Sarene or Siri, who possess no magic whatsoever.

 

I also notice you don't argue with my assessment that you're simply trying to find a way to become the most powerful being in the cosmere; your defense is simply, "so does Mr. Sanderson."

[TheOneKEA]

I have a different theory: Soulbearer Ferrings can store Investiture that has been applied to them in any of the three Realms by another magic user, and in doing so, the effects of that Investiture are eliminated immediately.

Stuck to a wall with a Lashing from a Windrunner? Fill a Nicrosil metal mind and the Lashing dissipates.

Receive a bunch of Breaths? Fill a Nicrosil metal mind and you lose whatever Heightening you gained.

Find yourself being affected by emotional Allomancy? Fill a Nicrosil metal mind and your emotions return to normal.

Given how little we know, it's certainly a possibility...

[Oudeis]

I can't agree with this statement. If you think about it, not one of Mr Sanderson's cosmere novels features a main POV character without some form of investiture.

 

Also, I neglected to address this. That's an entirely wrong statement. Siri never had any powers; Vivenna never used any power beyond life sense for the first half of the book. Sarene had no powers, Hrathen had one super-strong arm he didn't use until the final chapters. Gaotana was arguably a main POV character in Emperor's Soul. Even Raoden didn't get any functional Investiture until halfway through the book. Elend is a main viewpoint character during Well of Ascension before he gets powers. Dalinar is a Shardbearer but combat is hardly the focus of his character. Shallan soulcasts twice in the entire book, and even Kaladin goes a while before he inhales his first Stormlight. Yes, POV characters with Investiture are a big part of his books, since it's the only way he can express what it feels like to use a power, but there are plenty of examples of characters who have agency, who are interesting and complicated and evocative and just plain fun, either without any power, or not using it.

[Random man]

My main problem with thinking that Nicrosil stores investiture in the type that you are accessing while storing is that the Ars Arcanum states investiture (singular) for Nicrosil while it states senses and memories (both plural) for Tin and Copper which we know stores as distinct things. As such I think Nicrosil stores investiture as a kind of "raw" investiture without any kind of focus (health, weight, breath, ...).

 

From that I would assume that the investiture you have stored could then be used to enhance whatever investiture you are currently using. Thus a full Feruchemist with access to Surgebinding could convert their investiture of a specific type (like their stored weight) into raw investiture, then later use that raw investiture to help fuel something like Surgebinding allowing them (if they have enough raw investiture) to double the amount of Stormlight that they can use. While this wouldn't let them store say Stormlight for use latter when they have no spheres to draw on, it does allow them to convert any type of investiture they have access to into another investiture they have access to at a later time.

[Voidus]

If your only metric is direct combat, then I concur (though you inflated a few of the situations). Though keep in mind, without using Investiture, Kaladin DID, in fact, kill a Shardbearer. Vin, without atium, killed Zane, who was burning it. Yes, many main characters have Investiture, because it is a unique attribute of his worlds, and it is best shown via point-of-view (having Dox watch Kell fly around the city wouldn't have half the impact of showing Kell himself experiencing the feeling of plummeting through the mist). But even the main characters will, not infrequently, show how bad-chull they are by using their knowledge or skill when their Investiture fails them.

 

But direct combat isn't the only metric by which to measure how 'powerful' someone is. Even with ultimate Mistborn power, Elend is a far more effective leader than combatant. Dalinar uses his 'powers' to dig a latrine, and is one of the most powerful agents in the book due to his conviction and honor.

 

So yes, against NPCs and minions, people with Investiture are bad-chull, because that's a good visual. But if you know a lot about a system of Investiture, you can usually exploit its weakness. And the worlds aren't a cage-match; many of his books are driven by people like Sarene or Siri, who possess no magic whatsoever.

 

I also notice you don't argue with my assessment that you're simply trying to find a way to become the most powerful being in the cosmere; your defense is simply, "so does Mr. Sanderson."

That's not really exploiting a weakness in most of those situations, Vin beating Zane is arguably the only real exploit and even that's not so much a weakness as it is an oversight, if Zane wasn't using Atium he would've lost the fight long before and if not still would have fallen for the feint.

Yes people can be useful without investiture but give any of those people pretty much any type of investiture bar Hemalurgy and it would only help them.

[Oudeis]

 As such I think Nicrosil stores investiture as a kind of "raw" investiture without any kind of focus (health, weight, breath, ...).

 

From that I would assume that the investiture you have stored could then be used to enhance whatever investiture you are currently using.

 

Have you read the book for the Mistborn Adventure game? Tangent, does anyone know if there's a resource to find people who want to play this game?

 

 but give any of those people pretty much any type of investiture bar Hemalurgy and it would only help them.

 

Eh, not really. Being a Smoker or an Aluminum Gnat wouldn't have helped Siri any. Marasi spends most of the book believing her power to be all but useless, and in the end its "use" is frankly a bit contrived; she's right in that it typically doesn't do much good. Hrathen thwarts Sarene's plans expressly by convincing everyone, herself included, that she DID get Invested. And we've heard of another Shardworld where you only gain powers during illness, which sounds like a double-edged sword at best.

 

Yes, Investiture can usually offer you a very useful tool. There are some forms, like Mistborn or Windrunning, that are especially geared towards letting you slaughter a lot of people. Is that always good? Lirin the surgeon didn't even want his son trained in the spear, yet he was (on balance) a rather honorable person; if he'd gained the ability to inhale Stormlight and become fast and deadly, would that have helped him? It wouldn't have actually hurt him but it would have been of little or no use. Unlike a warrior, he didn't get injured often enough for the healing to be at all useful. I can't think of a Lashing that would commonly help during surgery.

 

Investiture can be a very useful tool. The ability to sneak, lie, and manipulate can be a useful tool. The ability to organize and plan can be a useful tool. A very well crafted set of tools can be a useful tool. A lot of things can be useful tools. And you're still arguing that Mr. Sanderson creates super-men, you're not disagreeing with my suspicion that you're trying to use a Nicrosil Ferring to justify making a overpowered character.

 

EDIT: Cuz I forgot to reply to half the things I quoted...

Edited November 14, 2013 by Darnam

[Voidus]

Eh, not really. Being a Smoker or an Aluminum Gnat wouldn't have helped Siri any. Marasi spends most of the book believing her power to be all but useless, and in the end its "use" is frankly a bit contrived; she's right in that it typically doesn't do much good. Hrathen thwarts Sarene's plans expressly by convincing everyone, herself included, that she DID get Invested. And we've heard of another Shardworld where you only gain powers during illness, which sounds like a double-edged sword at best.

Being able to hide from lifesense would be pretty useful to Siri, as would being able to remove toxins and unwanted investiture, I'm pretty sure anyone would be happier knowing that they don't have to worry about poisons.

Marasi's abilities are useful, they are a pivotal point in the book, however contrived it may feel and there are certainly other useful applications for the ability if she chose to take advantage of them.

If Sarene were actually invested that would have actually been helpful, she could have done a lot better in a fight and Hrathen might not have needed to die, her being tricked is an example of someone suffering the consequences of Investiture without actually being Invested, showing if anything that even the minor consequences of investitures can apply just as easily to someone without it.

The magic from illness (Silence Divine IIRC) gives a benefit to those suffering, without the magic they'd still be just as sick, except not able to fly.

 I can't think of a Lashing that would commonly help during surgery.

 

Being able to completely seal a wound over would be pretty useful to a surgeon, even if it's temporary, I can think of one situation where one of Lirin's patients might not have died of blood loss if he could.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Voidus

[Moogle]

I can't think of a Lashing that would commonly help during surgery.

 

Surgery requires a lot of delicate handwork, and holding Stormlight enhances your dexterity. Full Lashings would also serve to temporarily stop bleeding (by allowing you to glue flesh together), allowing the surgeon to sew up the patient quickly with a minimum of blood loss. The young girl in Kaladin's vision died because Kal couldn't sew her up fast enough and she lost too much blood. Really, Pressure sounds fairly useful to a surgeon, though not as much as Growth. I wonder if Kaladin will use it to help him during some field medicine? It would be an interesting use of the power.

 

Gravity is less useful, though could be helpful for making a patient weightless and allowing them to be moved more easily. It could also allow them to float during surgeries, which could be useful.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Moogle

[Kadrok]

What?! Someone started a topic about my favourite Feruchemical power while I was away caring for my niece?! Gah! If I had time right now... the essays I would post!

 

See you tomorrow when I have time again...

 

If I remember...

[Oudeis]

Up vote from someone else currently away from home to help with a niece! Mine is newborn.

[name_here]

Investiture is pretty much universally a positive, although it's not always applicable. AonDor is very broad and if someone knows the correct Aon it'd be useful in any situation. Forging and Soulcasting let you turn things into other things, and since the Cosmere is not post-scarcity
(i.e. there is not enough stuff to give everyone literally everything they want, although this doesn't preclude having enough food and such for everyone) it is quite likely for a situation to arise where you have something on hand but want something else. Allomantic pewter and Windrunning give generic and very broad improvements to physical activity of all kinds, including coordination. Using the Lashings for surgery might be a bit tricky, although Full Lashing for emergency suturing would be really helpful, but the ability to move oneself and heavy objects quickly is generically useful and thus frees up time and effort for any specific activity that they don't directly help with. Awakening basically lets you have more hands for whatever, although unless you've got well-selected Lifeless it won't help much with precision work. Like Allomantic pewter, Dakhor powers seem to have generic physical improvements avaliable, and if you are really desperate/cruel it does have a mass teleport ability in case you need something that isn't close at hand or need to get somewhere quickly. Sazed handily demonstrates that Feruchemy is good for almost anything. Now, individual Mistings/Ferrings are not so broadly applicable, since they've got the narrowest powersets, although the physicals are always at least mildly helpful.

 

That said, someone with Investiture does not necessarily trump someone else who does not have it. It would have been basically useless for Siri unless she had quite a lot, since there were enough priests and guards that fighting them all was non-viable. Even in a situation where violence is heavily involved, Elend is critical despite not having Investiture because he talked the skaa and nobility out of killing each other. Up to the very end, Investiture aside from emotional allomancy or being a zinc ferring would not have helped Sarene much because the whole contest was basically political. In general, the trend is that Investiture does not trump being able to convince people to do what you want.

 

Anyway, as for the original question, I don't think you can really do that. The thing is, in order to store something in a metalmind, you need to have it in the first place. A Nicrosil twinborn could store and compound burning allomantic Nicrosil... which is kinda spectacularly useless because it doesn't seem likely allomantic Nicrosil has degrees. And while we don't know too much about the underlying mechanics, I am supremely dubious that, even if you could store being able to use allomancy at all, you would be able to re-snap as another type. At best, you could repeatedly get and store whatever you can use and tap that, but I expect that you wouldn't be able to do that either. If it were possible, it seems like the others could be exploited in a similar manner to get permanent improvements by storing an attribute and then working to improve that, like storing pewter down to the level of a recent invalid and going through physical therapy to get back to normal, then ending the storage. Since that would be useful but Sazed doesn't do it, I expect it is impossible.

 

I also don't think it stores the ability to use allomancy or whatever, I think it stores actually using it. Also, apparently the RPG says that stored investiture can be transferred to any metalmind of the user. So I think what would happen is that a mistborn with Feruchemical nicrosil could burn steel, store the investiture from the burning, and use that as any of the standard metals. Possibly also as the God Metals, but at an incredibly steep exchange rate because an Atium bead contains a vast amount of Investiture as well as allowing access to the generalized pool.

 

One theory of mine is that TLR had a single nicrosil metalmind and made extensive use of it. Possibly the bracers were multiple metalminds, and when refining them to Atium they assumed everything else was nothing of particular interest. As for why it wasn't mentioned in the caches, maybe he just had no idea where to get more. This would explain why his Allomancy is so much stronger than even a first-generation Mistborn like Elend ends up being. Also, it helps explain his aging; he compounds something else, stores that in the nicrosilmind, and transfers it to the Atiummind. I am dubious that he directly compounded Atium, because there was literally no Atium in the entirety of Kredik Shaw outside of the bracers. Sure, he might just have finished using the last supply run, but he seemed pretty unconcerned given that the Pits had been crippled. And while the primary stockpile would doubtless have lasted him quite a while, accessing it would have been problematic.

[Kadrok]

As such I think Nicrosil stores investiture as a kind of "raw" investiture without any kind of focus (health, weight, breath, ...).

 

From that I would assume that the investiture you have stored could then be used to enhance whatever investiture you are currently using. Thus a full Feruchemist with access to Surgebinding could convert their investiture of a specific type (like their stored weight) into raw investiture, then later use that raw investiture to help fuel something like Surgebinding allowing them (if they have enough raw investiture) to double the amount of Stormlight that they can use. While this wouldn't let them store say Stormlight for use latter when they have no spheres to draw on, it does allow them to convert any type of investiture they have access to into another investiture they have access to at a later time.

This is precisely what I was going to say (though I normally call it 'blank' investiture) and is also how the Mistborn Adventure Game describes it working. If you figured this out on your own, without reference to the MAG, you're some kind of prodigious genius *highfive!*

 

Up vote from someone else currently away from home to help with a niece! Mine is newborn.

NAAW! So cute! Also, I tap two islands for a *COUNTER UPVOTE!*

[Random man]

I haven't gotten the MAG since I don't have people to play table top games with near where I live, though I have considered getting it just to see what it says on Feruchemical tin when it comes to touch, taste, and smell. Other than Tin, Nicrosil has been the most interesting to me so I've been trying to figure out what it does since I saw it. Mildly obsessive fits better in my head as scouring the Coppermind and reading the Ars Arcanums has been my method of taking breaks from studying (sad as that may be).

[Oudeis]

What would you like to know about Feruchemical tin? I've got the book and I'm re-reading it in preparation for a few one-shots at my FLGS.

[Random man]

Well I know that sight and hearing aren't enhanced in the same way between Feruchemy and Allomancy, since tapping sight or hearing seems to "telescope" that sense. That is the effective distance that you can hear or see stays the same, its just that you create an distance around you that you can't hear/see. I can see how the same concept could be applied to the sense of smell but I have no idea how it would work for touch and taste. So I was mostly just curious if the MAG explained how tapping/storing touch and taste worked.

[Oudeis]

It unfortunately does not; in fact, according to the rules of the MAG, it doesn't even work that way for hearing and sight. I think it would not be difficult to home-rule something like the limitation on peripheral vision, or to insist on an easy Physique roll to fight the nausea of using sight, but there's nothing about it in the rules. By a strict reading of the book, it's basically just allomantic tin, but for one sense at a time and without an upper threshold on power.

 

I'm intrigued by the Blessing of Awareness... if I recall, we don't get to experience much of it firsthand in the books. We know each tin spike, like a tinmind, can take only one sense. Yet with only two spikes, a kandra can apparently enhance every sense. The MAG does point out this discrepancy, and apparently simply claims that yes, there is a unique interaction between these two spikes and the physiology of a kandra that enchance all five senses, the way the four strength spikes of a koloss nevertheless give you saggy blue skin and a growth spurt that won't quit.

[Random man]

Well that's mildly upsetting but not completely unexpected, it would be a weird thing to try and balance in game. My main reason for wanting to know so I can figure out how feasible a double Tin sniper would be, since the inner play between the two sight enhancements would work great for judging wind and distance. I just wondering if you store enough touch so that when you fire the rifle it wouldn't cause excruciating pain from the allomatic tin enhanced touch, while still letting you feel you heartbeat clearly.

 

I would imagine it has a lot to do with the kandra physiology, allowing them to alter say their ears so they could except the investiture intended for sight or touch. Their entire body is made of the same material so I would think that it would be possible but without more information it would just be a guess.