Stone, Stone Shamans, Thunderclasts, and Beyond

[dungeonfood]

I was just reading the Szeth/Shin Conspiracy thread, and it got me thinking. The basic speculation was that Shin discovered Honorblades, and built Shone Shamanism around hiding the secret. I've been doing a second read-through of tWoK, and I like many parts of this theory. However, I'd like to propose my own. I don't think sacredness of stone has to do with Honorblades, but rather thunderclasts. Let me explain.

 

Part 1:

Mistborn spoilers*:

Through Mistborn, we know that Sanderson has already used religion as a tool in writing for containing semi-truths - in a similar way to what we're talking about here. The whole Hero of Ages concept evolved from the true knowledge of the nature behind Ruin and Preservation, but ended up as just the practical application: containment of Ruin was the key, and information disseminated and changed through the generations to maintain that status quo (though the initial reason was forgotten). As far as writing goes, Sanderson is very capable of using religious custom to protect against some long-forgotten truth.

*If you skipped this spoiler, it simply contains some evidence that Sanderson is capable of this kind of conspiracy-laden writing

 

We also know that Shin religion has other truths preserved in its religion, after others have forgotten. Note that the Shin still know about stormlight (and by the use of the word "sacred" in this quote, I do think it stems from Shin religion, and not just Shen's knowledge of surgebinding):

 

"They held sapphires infused with Stormlight. Profane. How could the men of these lands use something so sacred for mere illumination?"

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 22). Tor Fantasy.

 

So, in The Stormlight Archive, we see the present-day application of Shin religion: Shin do not walk on (or interact with) stone. I would suggest that this branches from the ancient knowledge of thunderclasts, and their relation to stone. We know, from the Prologue, that thunderclasts 1) are made of stone, and 2) come from stone:

 

"...[Kalak] passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free of the stone to join the fray."

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 15). Tor Fantasy.

 

I would suggest that Shin culture has preserved the danger associated with stone by labeling it "sacred". End part 1 of my conspiracy theory.

 

 

Part 2:

 

Think about the geography of Shin in the world. Think about the geography of stone. Shin religion, and its application with regard to stone, has effectively secluded the Shin people to the west in Shinovar. Likewise, they remain somewhat protected from the events of the east.

 

Shin religion could be protecting Shin from the area of the world where Odium has influence. Where are the parshendi and parshmen (who may or may not have some direct relation to voidbringers)? Should the thunderclasts 'return', where would they arise (i.e. where is the world's mass of stone)? In fact, what has the landscape looked like in EVERY one of Dalinar's visions (the supposedly significant moments in the evolution of the world)? All of the visions have been based in rocky, highstorm-afflicted areas (i.e. not Shinovar). Everything that is associated with instability, change, and danger is located in the east, where Shin religion effectively forbids its people to 'trod'.

 

 

Part 3:

 

In the same way that I feel Shin reverence of stone is related to something significant, I think there's a reason that parshendi leave bodies untouched and lying on stone. In the event that the bodies do not die on stone, they are carried there.

 

"'Parshman workers,' Sigzil explained. 'They’re allowed to care for their own dead; it’s one of the few things they seem passionate about. They grow irate if anyone else handles the bodies. They wrap them in linen and carry them out into the wilderness and leave them on slabs of stone.'”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 772). Tor Fantasy.

 

The parshendi affinity for stone, juxtaposed with the Shin deference, is somewhat telling. I don't have a solid enough theory to elaborate on this, but I would speculate that it has something to do with thunderclasts, pupating (as seen with chasmfiends), and the parshmen/parshedi ability to change forms.

 

 

On Honorblades:

 

Here's why I think the Honorblade theory (of Shin discovering and hiding the Honorblades) is incorrect:

Through the same reasoning contained in what I said above, the physical landscape of the place where the Honorblades were left does not match that of Shinovar. I haven't seen anything that points to Shinovar being the location of anything of historical/mythological significance. That said, the fact that Shinovar isn't prevalent in any historical analysis we've seen seems significant and possibly telling.

 

Here's a reason I could be wrong:

 

For [the Honorblade theory] to work, Shinnovar would've had to literally grow around those Blades in the millenia after the last Desolation. 

 

Shinovar has been speculated by many to be the home of, or at least under the influence of, Cultivation. Based on Argent's thought, Cultivation could very well be involved in an elaborate cover-up. 

Once again, note the relation to Mistborn (i.e. the Lord Ruler changing the Terris homeland's landscape to hide the Well).

Why, though? I've got no idea.

 

 

Tangents:

 

Because I've dealt so heavily in this post with geography, I'd just like to bring forward the relative influences of the different Shards on different parts of the world. I think it's pretty well-accepted that the vegetation differences in Shinovar are attributable to Cultivation, while the Highstorms are attributable to Honor.

 

From a Brandon Sanderson Q&A:

 

Wetlander: Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor? (Brandon spoke over the word Honor in starting his response)
A: The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. (also affirmed the well as being similar).

 

The highstorms are not arbitrary. What their function is, I do not know for sure. However, as for speculation:

They could be related to the landscape-shaping power of Shards in Mistborn, e.g. volcanos and associated ash. Perhaps the highstorms help to make the landscape less easily inhabitable, and thus can hinder efforts of Odium's servants (like Voidbringers). Or, they could be similar to the mists by having some unknown side-effect. This would make the storms Honor's "consciousness", or the remnants of it after death. Here's my guess: In the same way the mists triggered Allomantic ability, the highstorms create an opportunity for humans to fight on his behalf. This happens through the generation of stormlight during highstorms, what I would speculate as an Honor-generated source of power (the "body" of Honor, using Mistborn terminology).

 

I would guess that Cultivation has similar functions somewhere in the world. This means a "conciousness" and a "body". I reject the hypothesis that Cultivation is the Night Watcher, because nothing we've seen about Shards in other books indicates they can have an anthropomorphic form in the world (the nature of the Night Watcher does not seem to fit that of Cultivation, either). There is some power bestowed by Cultivation within the world that we have yet to see or to recognize. I would suggest that this material or energy is contained within Shinovar.

Edited October 25, 2013 by dungeonfood

[Bloodfalcon]

I like it, obviously, but if you consider the time difference and context of the prologue, you might not find is so difficult to believe the two regions could be the same. For one, there is a massive Desolation-battle concluding on that land, and Kalak (I believe) even mentions that all the destruction indicates the Dustbringers (again I think I remember) doing their work well. So on top of it looking different for those reasons, it might have had thousands of years to grow into what it looks like now. I'm not certain on the timing between, but it's been a long time to put it simply. 

I like it though, your relating it to Mistborn themes gives it more credit I think, thank you. 

[dungeonfood]

I like it, obviously, but if you consider the time difference and context of the prologue, you might not find is so difficult to believe the two regions could be the same. For one, there is a massive Desolation-battle concluding on that land, and Kalak (I believe) even mentions that all the destruction indicates the Dustbringers (again I think I remember) doing their work well. So on top of it looking different for those reasons, it might have had thousands of years to grow into what it looks like now. I'm not certain on the timing between, but it's been a long time to put it simply. 

I like it though, your relating it to Mistborn themes gives it more credit I think, thank you. 

 

I like the concept a lot. I still find it difficult to believe that, without some kind of Shardic intervention, the place in any of those flashbacks could be Shinovar. I did, however, look through the Prologue again: there is a surprising lack of anything that could indicate highstorms. As we know, Shinovar is sheltered from highstorms by the mountains.

 

Now that I think about it, Dalinar's flashback at Feverstone Keep indicated unusual weather:

 

Eight weeks? Forty days of winter at once? That was rare. Despite the cold, the other three soldiers looked anything but engaged by their guard duties. One was even dozing.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 728). Tor Fantasy.

 

Sanderson must have included that for a reason...

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's any indication of "a time before highstorms"? Or a lack of reference to them in any other flashbacks? I think they're a reaction by Honor to Odium in some way, but who knows when they started. Stormlight infusion and his ability to send messages to Dalinar come to mind.

[Argent]

he highstorms are not arbitrary. What their function is, I do not know for sure. However, as for speculation:

They could be related to the landscape-shaping power of Shards in Mistborn, e.g. volcanos and associated ash. Perhaps the highstorms help to make the landscape less easily inhabitable, and thus can hinder efforts of Odium's servants (like Voidbringers). Or, they could be similar to the mists by having some unknown side-effect. This would make the storms Honor's "consciousness", or the remnants of it after death. Here's my guess: In the same way the mists triggered Allomantic ability, the highstorms create an opportunity for humans to fight on his behalf. This happens through the generation of stormlight during highstorms, what I would speculate as an Honor-generated source of power (the "body" of Honor, using Mistborn terminology).

 

That would actually be a very sensible solution. We've got an odd climatic pattern in both. Both are a source of power (though on Scadrial only Vin could access them). Both carry knowledge - the mists in the form of comfort for Allomancers, and the highstorms - Dalinar's visions and Kaladin's one. They feel so similar to me that I almost think it must be wrong to associate them so closely purely on the basis of how unlikely it would be for Brandon to pull the same trick on us twice.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Argent

[Scriptorian]

Nice theory. I've though a bit about this myself, but the only real conclusion I've come to is that rocks are important some how. I do find it interesting that parshendi/parshmen lay their dead on stone, and Szeth says that (as long as he follows his oaths) his body will be given to the stones after his death. Connection?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's any indication of "a time before highstorms"? Or a lack of reference to them in any other flashbacks? I think they're a reaction by Honor to Odium in some way, but who knows when they started. Stormlight infusion and his ability to send messages to Dalinar come to mind.

Eh, I doubt it. The ecology and geography of the world is so centered around hightstorms, it would have taken major shard-meddling to adjust the life-forms to be able to survive highstorms suddenly appearing. At the very least, I doubt there was a time without highstorms when humans lived on Roshar.

[dungeonfood]

Eh, I doubt it. The ecology and geography of the world is so centered around hightstorms, it would have taken major shard-meddling to adjust the life-forms to be able to survive highstorms suddenly appearing. At the very least, I doubt there was a time without highstorms when humans lived on Roshar.

 

Being a person who's worked a good amount with ecology IRL, I don't find it so unbelievable that things that survived the initial shock of periodic highstorms evolved to cope.

 

I did, however, see an interesting theory in another thread (I forget where, but it was a very old thread) in which it was suggested that initially Roshar looked like Earth (i.e. like Shinovar). However, with the introduction of highstorms, Shinovar is in fact the only place that was unaltered. This throws the theory of Cultivation's influence out the window (so who knows what Cultivation actually DOES have influence over...), but I think it's worthwhile to think about. Also seems to fit with Mistborn themes a bit.