What has possessed Cultivation? (Elantris spoilers)

[Isomere]

I have been wondering for a long time just what has become of Cultivation and I've come up with a new theory for us to sink our teeth into.

In the Tanavallah I claim this image represents Odium's magic system. There are many aspects of the picture that lead me to that conclusion, and I'll summarize the main points to support that. The real goal though is to discuss the parts of the image that don't fit with Odium and to follow those down the rabbit hole.

The symbols of fire and shadow are everywhere, including the outstretched arms of the woman, the swirling flames on top and the ribbons of darkness on bottom, the fireballs in all four corners, the lightning bolts and shadow bolts between Voids and Orders, and the dramatic contrast between red shard and swirling darkness. These all point to Odium since his minions are invariably described with fire and shadow.

The Void Glyphs are another hint. They are formed by partially inverting the Surge Glyphs from the Knights Radiant Table which ruins the perfect symmetry. Violating symmetry fits with Odium upsetting the balance created by the Almighty. Also, the inversion may represent negative interference in the Surge itself. We know the power of creation is a wave with pulse length and frequency. If you hit this wave with its inversion the two would obliterate each other similar to noise cancellation headphones. But instead of destroying sound this unravels creation itself, leaving nothing but an empty Void.

Now to the parts that don't fit with Odium. Instead of Honorblades, all of the Orders are represented by different animals. The red one in the bottom right is a crab. The red one on the left has six legs and bunny ears. The green one in the middle is almost certainly a lurg. The purple one on the left has horns. Each of them is either a whole body picture or a face depicting an animal. Using living creatures as your Order icons just doesn't strike me as very Odious.

Another big problem I see is gender. We know from Hoids Letter that Rayse is a man, yet the only person in this chart is female. That seems incongruous. Why would a chart designed to represent a man have four images of the same woman?

A third point against Odium is location. The adjacent image is a map of Shadesmar, with the same woman motif surrounding it. We know Odium is on Braise, a different planet in the Roshar system. Why then is the chart linked to Shadesmar? This suggests that something other than Odium is being referenced.

Many people believe that the chart is about Cultivation's magic system. That provides a nice parallel, with Honor linked to the physical world and Cultivation linked to Shadesmar. The animals fit as her symbols, and the female motif makes more sense if it is representing Cultivation. Unfortunately, if this is Cultivation's chart then the fire and shadow references and the glyph asymmetry are terribly out of place.

So how do we reconcile these seeming contradictions? Lets take a closer look at the woman depicted here. When I first studied her I saw the right hand representing fire and left representing shadow, both symbols of Odium. But now I see something else. The entire image is a mixed message, combining symbols of both Odium and Cultivation. Perhaps the right hand represents cultivation in her natural state, and the shadowed left hand represents some imprint of Odium. There is evidence both on Roshar and Sel that odium can command dead souls to possess humans and force them to do evil acts. Is it possible this was done with the holder of a Shard? It would explain why the chart for Cultivation's magic would be so dark and foreboding, and reconcile the symbols of odium that pervade the image.

There are many many places where cultivation could be, but I'd like to add "possessed by evil spirits and fighting for control of her shard while hiding in Shadesmar".

EDIT: Renamed the thread and added spoiler warning.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Isomere

[Pechvarry]

There's a lot I like about this. Perhaps this is what happened to Honor's magic, and this is what splintering looks like.

I.e. Odium works his magic (hah), corrupts Honor's shard, the magic system itself weakens and fades and when the shard eventually shatters, odium is left uninvested in the planet, and unmolested by the intent of the target shard. He then starts over with Cultivation (probably after a few thousand years of rest), who is not yet splintered.

Of interest, this necessarily means that once Odium is successful and his taint is withdrawn, the magic system resurfaces, as seen on Sel and Roshar.

Also, what reference have we seen about evil spirits controlling bodies? That demon word the Fjords name the Elantrians, maybe?

[hoser]

Isomere, fantastic post!  I don't necessarily agree across the board, but the writing, the imagination and the thoughtfulness really appeal to me. 

Also, what reference have we seen about evil spirits controlling bodies?

1. I believe there is a reference to voidbringers using possession in tWoK, perhaps a bridgeman says it.
2. It just seems properly Odious.  Don't create your own, corrupt the other guys magic and take over their people.  You hate your tools and they hate you because they are being compelled to serve. 
3. In Mistborn, consider Marsh.  Ruin and Odium have certain compatibiliities. 

[Isomere]

There are a few references to possession in the books. Unfortunately, all of them are based on legends from long ago and may have been distorted by time.

“What if the Voidbringers were behind the visions? Some stories he heard said that they could possess the bodies of men and make them do evil.” Ch 61

This quote from Dalinar is fairly straight forward about possession, but it doesn't specify if the Voidbringers are dead spirits. We only get that by cross referencing with Elantris. Hrathen reveals that Svrakiss are dead souls that can possess people. He claims that when he looked into Dilaf's eyes he found a Svrakiss looking back at him.

"Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to

all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than

a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away."-Elantris

Since they both are connected with possessing other people and both related to planets Odium has invaded in force, I'm speculating that the Voidbringers and the Svrakiss are the same thing. Regardless, there is precedence for possession on both planets.

[Pechvarry]

Fascinating corollary.

[Vortaan]

I like the thought, but if a dead spirit could possess the holder of a Shard, why did Odium need to Splinter Dominion and Devotion? Wouldn't it be better to kill Aona and Skai and place dead, obedient souls in their place?

[Meg]

• I believe there is a reference to voidbringers using possession in tWoK, perhaps a bridgeman says it.

 

You might remember that scene:

 

"Should we let the Voidbringers steal our hearts?"

 

(Skar asked Teft in a discussion down in the chasms (TWoK Ch. 43)

 

 

Jasnah, too, spoke about them:

 

“What were the Voidbringers?” Now that Jasnah was actually answering, perhaps she’d say. “What were they really?”

Jasnah studied her with a curious expression. “Nobody knows for sure. Most scholars consider them, like Urithiru, mere myths, while theologians accept them as counterparts of the Almighty—monsters that dwelled in the hearts of men, much as the Almighty once lived there.”

 

(Jasnah answered Shallan's question (TWoK Ch.45))

 

The Voidbringers "steal hearts" respectively the "dwelled in the hearts of men." Both quotes can be read like they "could possess the body of a man."

 

"Possessing a man's body", isn't that what Ruin does with his Inquisitors resp. everybody he put spikes in?

 

"Ruin would guide his hand when the time came to strike, making sure the spike was delivered to the right place. His master's direct attention was focused elsewhere at the moment, and he was giving Marsh general commands to get into position and prepare for the attack." 

 

"The pain was too great for him to remember. That moment was a hole in his memory, filled with vague images of the Inquisitors repeating this process, killing other unfortunate Allomancers and pounding their powers—their very souls, it seemed—into Marsh's body."

 

"Not only would the spike have to be planted precisely, but Penrod would have to leave it in long enough for Ruin to begin influencing his thoughts and emotions."

 

"Ruin came upon him, and he lost control of his body. He moved without knowing what he was going to do, following direct orders."

 

(HoA Ch. 42)

 

Those descriptions given in The Hero of Ages, Chapter 42, seem to exactly tell how to place a dead soul in another body.

Putting "a dead soul in another body" would be my explanation for "possessing a strange body." 

 

@ the Elantris example:

 

We only get that by cross referencing with Elantris. Hrathen reveals that Svrakiss are dead souls that can possess people. He claims that when he looked into Dilaf's eyes he found a Svrakiss looking back at him.

"Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to

    all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than

    a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away."-Elantris

empazises mine

 

I've reread that part and also looked for where this: "he looked into Dilaf's eyes he found a Svrakiss looking back at him." comes from.

 

That above quote is part of discussion between Hrathen and Dilaf in Elantris Chapter 6.

 

It's from a discussion between Hrathen and Dilaf about the Elantrians:

 

“Hate has weakened your ability to see, Arteth,” Hrathen said, hanging his breastplate on the wall beside his desk and smiling. He had just experienced a flash of brilliance; a portion of his plan suddenly fit into place. “You assume because Jaddeth did not give them powers, they did not have any.”

Dilaf’s face grew pale. “What you say is—”

“Not blasphemy, Arteth. Doctrine. There is another supernatural force besides our God.”

“The Svrakiss,” Dilaf said quietly.

“Yes.” Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away.

“You think the Elantrians are Svrakiss?” Dilaf asked.

“It is accepted doctrine that the Svrakiss can control the bodies of the evil,” Hrathen said, unbuckling his greaves. “Is it so hard to believe that all this time they have been controlling bodies of the Elantrians, making them appear as gods to fool the simpleminded and unspiritual?”

 

(Elantris, Chapter 6)

 

Because I can't find anything about Hrathen looking in Dilaf's eyes and seeing a Svrakiss looking back in this part, I continued searching and was successful in Chapter 51, when Hrathen was under the impression that Dilaf wouldn't be a man but a svrakiss.

 

 

And here's the connection between Dilaf and the Svrakiss:

 

"Dilaf smiled. In the wan light of the lantern, his face pocketed with shadow, he smiled. The expression, filled with the passion, the ambition, and the zeal that Hrathen had noted on that first day so long ago, was so disturbing that Hrathen’s question died on his lips. In the flickering light, the arteth seemed not a man at all, but a Svrakiss, sent to torment Hrathen."

 

(Elantris, Chapter 51) (emphasizes mine)

 

I'm sorry, Isomere, but

1. your conclusion that Hrathen sees a Svrakiss looking back from Dilaf's eyes, isn't told in Elantris; the sentence is a description of Hrathen's feelings at that moment, not a statement,

2. the quote you gave isn't in the same context as the quote about Hrathen's feelings (see 1), as for your quote comes from Chapter 6 and the other scene is from Chapter 51.

 

Hopefully I haven't overlooked something important.

 

So my upshot is that the Svrakiss =|= the Voidbringers.

Edit, because I lost track while writing the above first part (that I don't change now):

I like the thought, but if a dead spirit could possess the holder of a Shard, why did Odium need to Splinter Dominion and Devotion? Wouldn't it be better to kill Aona and Skai and place dead, obedient souls in their place?

I'm quite sure that "a dead spirit" is dead. A dead soul can't do anything, except gaining a power like that of a Shard (i.e.: Kelsier after Leras death in HoA). I think, Ruin's ability with spikes means too, that the souls of the victims aren't really dead, but kind of conserved in the spikes until the spike is given to its receiver.

Also I think, that a dead soul wouldn't help controlling the body of a Shardholder, if anything there would have to be a power like Ruin's to stand behind that. Also it seems to me that the power of a Shard would leave the dead body of a Shardholder immediatly when the Shardholder dies and there wouldn't be a mind/conscience to control it. If I understand it right Aona and Skai (as well as Tanavast) died because of the Splintering of the Shards they held.

Is this understandable?

Edit 2 (again an add, no changes in the text above):

@ The left hand of the woman's image: I always imagined that it's covered with a long sleeve as it's "common" for (not all, but I think a good part) of the Rosharan women.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Meg

[Meg]

Sorry for double posting, but it's intentional.

 

Rereading the following part I think the wording isn't clear and I wasn't able to express what I wanted to say:

 

 

Edit, because I lost track while writing the above first part (that I don't change now):I'm quite sure that "a dead spirit" is dead. A dead soul can't do anything, except gaining a power like that of a Shard (i.e.: Kelsier after Leras death in HoA). I think, Ruin's ability with spikes means too, that the souls of the victims aren't really dead, but kind of conserved in the spikes until the spike is given to its receiver.

Also I think, that a dead soul wouldn't help controlling the body of a Shardholder, if anything there would have to be a power like Ruin's to stand behind that. Also it seems to me that the power of a Shard would leave the dead body of a Shardholder immediatly when the Shardholder dies and there wouldn't be a mind/conscience to control it. If I understand it right Aona and Skai (as well as Tanavast) died because of the Splintering of the Shards they held.

Is this understandable?

 

I think an example for a "dead spirit" might be Tindwyl (or Vin and Elend), who know exists somewhere, where not even Harmony can reach her.

 

Kelsier however exists where Harmony is, too.

 

Where Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in Mistborn 3 at the right moments.

source

 

I'm under the impression that this "plane of existence" isn't Shadesmar but the Spiritual Realm and that in this "state of existence" people don't have a conscience/mind.

 

Given that Kelsier is a Sliver, the "being a Sliver" doesn't necessarily require a living physical body, but only the mastery of ones conscience/mind.  

 

 

Another thought are soul stamps. Perhaps they could be used in a way that is implied in this thread.

 

Hopefully it's better said now. I'd appreciate any answers and help.

 

[hoser]

I like the thought, but if a dead spirit could possess the holder of a Shard, why did Odium need to Splinter Dominion and Devotion? Wouldn't it be better to kill Aona and Skai and place dead, obedient souls in their place?

Just spitballin' here.

Well, even if Odium could trust an obedient soul, he probably wouldn't.  Given his intent, souls that would obey him would hate him.  Even a soul that intended to obey Odium would have their intent warped by whatever Shard they picked up.  Once a soul has picked up a Shard, control seems like it might be difficult. 

[Gloom]

and yet the ten fools serve his will.

[Isomere]

@Meg: Thanks for looking up those citations in Elantris. I don't own a copy and last read it several years ago, so I was limited to memory and quotes I could find online. As you point out, the reference to Dilaf being a Svrakiss is much less concrete than I had remembered. However, it seems my poor quoting skills distracted from the real point of the post which is unchanged regardless of Dilaf's nature:

-There is a thing called a Svrakiss on Sel that uses possession to control people.

-There is a thing called a Voidbringer on Roshar that uses possession to control people.

-Since they do similar things and work for the same guy perhaps they are related in some manner...

We know Kelsier was able to claim the Shard of Preservation and affect the world even after his death. I speculate that Odium can force his victims into a similar state after death and bind them to his will.

[hoser]

and yet the ten fools serve his will.

Sure, but he isn't giving them entire Shards of Adonalsium anytime soon. 

[Gloom]

Ahh, sorry, wasn't reading closely enough. Shardholder and Shardbearer are so similar.

 

My take on this is simple.

 

Shards have their own intent. A Shardholder can influence that intent, but they can't act against that intent except in a very limited capacity. Even should Odium kill a Shardholder and choose someone to become a new Shardholder, the Shards intent would overwhelm Odiums influence. If the Shardholder was not alive, the Shard would overwhelm whatever investiture was used to animate its holder, likely destroying it. Yes, my understanding from reading the various books and quotes is that investiture can be overwhelmed by a more powerful investiture. I can't think of anything more powerful than a Shard. Odium would need to invest a significant amount of his power into the invested corpse to keep the Shard from overwhelming that corpse. It would weaken Odium significantly and I still don't believe that it would allow Odium to alter the Shards intent in any significant way.

[Morsk]

I always thought of the woman in that art as being a "mascot" not a real person: a woman with a safehand and mixed hair colors, looking regal and magical, summing up a lot of the imagery in the series.

Her being Cultivation is a much better idea, but what's up with the safehand? Cultivation is much older than Vorinism. All I can think is that if she's related to the Old Magic, that she "gives with one hand, and takes with the other", and so people fear that half of her. Could Vorin safehands be inspired by that imagery, or is it a coincidence?

[cem]

It could be the in-book artist's interpretation. Painting a woman without her safehand covered is probably akin to nude paintings in Vorin kingdoms.

[Natans]

It could be the in-book artist's interpretation. Painting a woman without her safehand covered is probably akin to nude paintings in Vorin kingdoms.

 

Odd thought,that never ocurred me. I think that when the Alenthis travel to distant countries they must have a nice and good time with all the "boldness" there, like going to Rio, Ibiza or something.

[Kadrok]

Another big problem I see is gender. We know from Hoids Letter that Rayse is a man, yet the only person in this chart is female. That seems incongruous. Why would a chart designed to represent a man have four images of the same woman?

 

Are we sure it's a woman? Maybe Rayse has girlish arms and fabulous hair? That would certainly make me Odious.

 

 

EDIT:

Edited October 14, 2013 by Kadrok