Theory: The Jungles of Hallandren

[Windrunner]

There's always been one detail of Nalthis that always struck me as odd. The fact that there is only one jungle in the entirety of Nalthis.

Siri had never really thought about how Hallandren would look to people who came across the Inner Sea. She’d heard stories from the ramblemen who came into Idris, and they spoke of distant places. In other lands, one found prairies and steppes, mountains and deserts. But not jungles. Hallandren was unique.

 
It always seemed kind of strange to me. On Earth, jungles abound, and not just near the equator all the time. So why just one on Nalthis? Bearing in mind, this could be a simple coincidence. But this fact hinted at something else to me.
 

The Tears of Edgli. The source of Hallandren wealth. Such small things, so easy to grow here. And yet, this is the only soil where they will live.

 
One interpretation of this is that it's not just the climate they live in, but the soil itself that the Tears require. (Although, you can also read it other ways.) This again made me wonder at why a jungle would flourish in just one place in the world.
 
But, there is another instance of a place that flourishes, unlike the lands around it.

We were at the RPG release party and I gave that to my friend for his wedding, because he's really into that. He actually sent me with a couple questions. He said ‘could you ask him about the Words of Founding? What does it contain besides the religions, technological advancements, and layout for Elendel? Is there anything special in there?
BRANDON SANDERSON
There's some other cool stuff in there that eventually I'll talk about.

QUESTION
But nothing specific?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Nothing I'm going to be able to (can't tell what he's saying. Basically that he can't say anything specific, I think.

QUESTION
I was going to say generalities. Does that cover the basics of it?

BRANDON SANDERSON
That definitely covers the basics of it, yeah. There was stuff from Sazed's metalminds. A lot of that stuff that was in there. Everything that was in there, he tried to get in the books. And then some other additions. Such as Elendel, which he created as a basin for life and things. And stuff like that. They are very interesting. These guys are here recording everything I have to say. So I have to watch myself.

 

Harmony changed the land around Elendel, creating a basin where life flourishes, unlike the rest of the world. Is it possible that Endowment could have done the same with the jungle? Perhaps Nalthis is a bit of a colder world, further out in the habitable zone, too far for jungles to form. But thanks to Endowment's blessing upon the land around Hallandren, the jungle and all different types of life can flourish there.

 

My biggest concern with this theory is Brandon's mention that he didn't want to make a map of Nalthis, for fear of getting the geography of a jungle wrong, which could point to the fact that the jungle is natural. But I still think there might be something to this. Thoughts?

[Aethling]

We have to remember that she starts out as a girl from a relatively isolated village.  Remember how Mat and Rand reacted the first time they saw Caemlyn?  She probably only heard a very small amount of merchants to begin with.  I really doubt even Siri hung out too much in the local taverns.

 

The jungle issue is easily explained away.  South America, Asia, and Africa have jungles in one form or another, but a person from Canada or Germany in a medieval type setting would probably not even have known what the word meant.  Sure, they might have heard stories about twenty foot tall animals with flapping ears and a long nose, but would have they have given them any credence.

 

Sanderson has stated there is something special to do with the Tears, so that becomes immune to normal rules.  Still, the earth abounds with plants and animals that only grow in one specific place.  As a real-world modern example, the people of my neighboring parish were upset a few months back because the feds wouldn't let them put a road through a specific location because it was inhabited by a tiny spider that only lived in that specific place.

[Shardlet]

I think that you might be explaining things away a bit too readily Aethling.  Forgive me if I am incorrect, I've only read Warbreaker once and it has been a while, but aren't Siri and Vivenna royalty?  A small kingdom perhaps, but Siri is dodging lessons from a tutor in the beginning of the book, neh?  She would likely have had a relatively high level of education and would likely have been taught foreign cultures and geographies. 

 

However, it could be a geographical fluke.  If there are no mountains nearby other places or the mountains do not alter the weather patterns in the right way, then there would not be jungles.  The tilt of the planet, or lack thereof, also play a substantial role.  The tilt of the planet determines the size of the tropical latitude range.  Whether or not there is a wobble to the tilt would also affect things.  Consider, it has been suggested that Roshar's axis wobbles and that this accounts for the strange seasonal patterns on Roshar.  

 

On the other hand, Brandon has Siri take particular notice of this phenomenon.  Since the Jungle being only in Hallandren was not significant to the story in Warbreaker, I suspect you may be onto something Windrunner since the observation is so otherwise irrelevant and it is a curiously strange detail of the world.

[Windrunner]

We have to remember that she starts out as a girl from a relatively isolated village.  Remember how Mat and Rand reacted the first time they saw Caemlyn?  She probably only heard a very small amount of merchants to begin with.  I really doubt even Siri hung out too much in the local taverns.

She's also a princess of a kingdom, no matter how small. She's obviously received some training, if only because she's technically second in line for the throne, since Vivenna was to be married off and Fafen was a monk.

 

The jungle issue is easily explained away.  South America, Asia, and Africa have jungles in one form or another, but a person from Canada or Germany in a medieval type setting would probably not even have known what the word meant.  Sure, they might have heard stories about twenty foot tall animals with flapping ears and a long nose, but would have they have given them any credence.

She clearly knows what a jungle is, as she's living in one when she talks about it. She speaks with some confidence on the known world. Anyway, Brandon's said that this jungle is out of place. I should have had this in the OP, my apologies.

 

It takes a very specific set of geographic requirements for a rain forest to work, and what I wanted here was a kind of rain forest valley, irregular and out of place in the world.

 

Sanderson has stated there is something special to do with the Tears, so that becomes immune to normal rules.  Still, the earth abounds with plants and animals that only grow in one specific place.  As a real-world modern example, the people of my neighboring parish were upset a few months back because the feds wouldn't let them put a road through a specific location because it was inhabited by a tiny spider that only lived in that specific place.

There are plenty of animals unique to a place. But, the way I read it, that's different from only being able to live in one place. Those unique plants could probably be moved and flourish in a different place.

 

EDIT:

Ninja'd on a few of my points by Shardlet. Thanks for the complements!

Edited July 29, 2013 by Windrunner

[Pechvarry]

It should be noted we have no guarantee they've discovered the whole planet. So it is pretty accurate to imagine all of North America (no jungle) and an extremely small South America with room for only a single jungle. They don't know about Africa and think their jungle unique.

That said... Shinovar lends your theory credence.

[Windrunner]

I hadn't thought of Shinovar, that's a good point.

 

I'd like to again direct your attention the quote from Brandon that says that the rain forest is out of place on Nalthis.

[Aethling]

She was the princess of a fairly minor country.  Even she admits her capital city is really nothing more than a town.  A decent example would be Isabella of Spain.  Since she was a patron of Columbus, it is doubtful that she would have known about the New World even though there is very, very strong evidence that Europeans had reached North America centuries before Columbus.  I imagine she had one of the best available educations that could be afforded at the time.  Undoubtedly, somewhere in Europe at the time was someone that had heard about the Norse voyages, but the chance of that person being selected to be her tutor was fairly nil.  Considering that Siri probably didn't get even that quality of an education, it is very easy to believe that she just hadn't heard about jungles elsewhere.  Warbreaker also specifically states that Siri did not get the same type of education that Vivenna or Fafen did.  Going by the pdf version available from Sanderson's site, the first page of chapter two is explicit about this.

 

Sanderson's statement about the Jungle reads more that it is out of place where it is, not that other's don't exist.  Something shardic might be going on there, of that I wouldn't doubt.

 

The Tears are always a special case due to what Sanderson has said about them.  It isn't unheard of to find plants that only grow one place due to the nature of the soil in that location.  Yes, you could pot them using the same soil and transplant them across the world with the same soil, but that is man intervening in nature.   Would they grow the same without the nutrients that are found the original place?  No  matter how many times you plant an oak tree north of the arctic circle, it will not grow to the same extent as it would in Louisiana.

[Windrunner]

We'll have to agree to disagree then Aethling.

 

Our argument on the extent of Siri's education is going nowhere.

 

The quote by Brandon clearly says "world" not "area" or "region", but interpret it as you will.

 

Your example about the Tears is not at all what I was getting at. I was speaking more about moving a creature or plant to the same biome elsewhere in the world.

[king of nowhere]

I was going to say pretty much what aethling said. it was from siri's pow, and she probably don't know the whole world. jungles tend to grow around the equator, , so probably hallandren is in the tropical area. east of it is sea. the lands beyond the sea are known but to what extent? maybe on those lands there are jungles too, but they are far enough (say, 1000 km) that people in idris or hallandren wouldn't hear of them.

west of hallandren are mountains, and rain shadow would ensure that west to the mountains there would be an arid climate. After that, we don't know what is. Maybe a big sea, maybe a big desertic region.

 

Keep in mind that with the kind of technology they have, knowledge is incredibly scarce. For example, in medioeval europe they knew he world was spheric, and they knew roughly the diameter because some greek matematician made the calculations (surprisingly accurate for the means he had), and they knew europe was very small, but they knew little else. they knew on the east there was a place called china, and silk came from here. that was pretty much the extent of their knowledge. marco polo is remembered for traveling to china, and when he got back hom most people wouldn't even believe him. ibn battuta also traveled to china, and no one believed him for centuries, until someone found his writings and saw that they fitted with other hystorical informations ibn battuta could not have had if he had invented everything.

West of gibraltar, they knew even less. they kneew there was a gap of thousands of kilometers in their maps until they went to china. it was far too long to cross by ship, and columbus only tried because he got some wrong calculations saying that the distance was smaller. he was lucky to find america at midway, or he would have starved in the sea. America was discovered by the vikings, and greenland too, but then climate changed, greenland became frozen, and people just forgot. history became mith, and mith faded to legend, and it only took a few centuries.

What was south of the sahara desert also was known only marginally. somewhere in the XIII or XIV century someone had the same idea of columbus, but the winds pushed him south, and he landed in africa. one centurry later, a eeuropean explorer reported meeting a man with blue eyes spaking portuguese, claiming to be the last descendent of those men. It is  likely no other european came to that place in a century. It means that in the full turn of a century, the europeans that visited south of the sahara desert were maybe a few dozens.

 

So, forgive me this wall of text, (i recently read some stuff about early exploration that fascinated me), I'm pointing out that Knowleadgeable people in siri's time are likely to know roughly how the world is shaped, and where are continents and where is sea, but they are unlikely to know anything else. They may have many other jungles a few thousands kilometers away and be absolutely unaware of their existence.

 

As for the tears of edgli, it would be far from the first plant growing in only one place. maybe there is something in the soil, or maybe they rely on some particular insects or birds to spread pollen, or whatever the reason. Or maybe the tears would grow in a greenhouse if they were properly cared for, but the hallandren have spread the voice that they cannot grow outside of their land to avoid competitors in the dye market. Remember, it was siri's pow. the chinese told everyone that silk grew on plants, and most people believed them for centuries.

 

Of course it is also possible shards are involved in all, but I always prefer the natural explanation to the supernatural one.

[Windrunner]

That's all very interesting. I agree that it's not guaranteed that Siri knows about the environment of all of Nalthis. But, if you'd look, Brandon's said it's irregular and out of place in the world, which is concrete evidence enough for me at least.

[Shardlet]

I'm still in your corner Windy.  If nothing else is enough, the quote strongly suggests there is something special about the Hallandren jungle.

[Isomere]

Metals burned on Scadrial reform in the earth somehow. I have been assuming the Tears are a way to get back the colors used in Awakening. If that is the case, there very well could be some shardic mojo going on that only lets them grow in a certain location. 

[Aethling]

Warbreaker Annotations said

It takes a very specific set of geographic requirements for a rain forest to work, and what I wanted here was a kind of rain forest valley, irregular and out of place in the world.

 

 

I think the difference in our interpretations comes from the part "and out of place in the world."  It appears you are taking that to mean that it should not be anywhere on the world.  I am reading it as it should not be in that particular place in the world.  Your interpretation seems to mean that the conditions are not right for a jungle in one single spot in the world.  Mine takes it to mean that while it is "out of place" in that location, other locations on the world would be fine.  A rubber tree is "out of place" at the north pole, but we know that the conditions exists on the world where they can and do grow extremely well.

 

I am not arguing that there is nothing shardic about the jungle.  I will concede that point as a given.  However, you seem to be arguing that just because one person does not know about jungles existing elsewhere that they don't.  I would almost concede even that point if the information came from Sarene in Elantris.  She was given knowledge to be used in her role.  Warbreaker is explicit that Siri was not given the same level of education has her siblings as she was never expected to need to do anything.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Aethling

[Windrunner]

@Shardlet

Thanks, it's good to have someone who agrees with me!

 

@Isomere

I really really like that idea. It would make sense, because thus far it hasn't seemed that there is anything special about color from the Tears, which there should be if they were some sort of fuel akin to atium and lerasium.

 

@Aethling

I understood where our interpretation differs. As I made it clear in both the OP and in a subsequent post, the way I read it is not the only way it can be read, just the way that I see it as being. And you seem to have quite missed the part where I admit that it is possible that Siri is too poorly educated to know about other jungles. For your ease of reading:

 

That's all very interesting. I agree that it's not guaranteed that Siri knows about the environment of all of Nalthis. But, if you'd look, Brandon's said it's irregular and out of place in the world, which is concrete evidence enough for me at least.

[happyman]

@Isomere

I really really like that idea. It would make sense, because thus far it hasn't seemed that there is anything special about color from the Tears, which there should be if they were some sort of fuel akin to atium and lerasium.

 

IIRC, the Tears of Edgli have, at a bare minimum, the property that they can be used to make any color dye, and that the dyes made from them hold perfectly.  In a world where magic needs color to function, this sounds kinda special and magical.

[Windrunner]

They're unique, but not in the same way as atium and lerasium, which have odd properties and allow for other abilities. So far as we know, there is no discernible difference between awakening with color from the Tears and color from something else, which in my opinion there should be.

[happyman]

They're unique, but not in the same way as atium and lerasium, which have odd properties and allow for other abilities. So far as we know, there is no discernible difference between awakening with color from the Tears and color from something else, which in my opinion there should be.

 

That we know of.  After all, Atium's prime effect is similar to that of Electrum in many ways.  If people in-world had known about Electrum and Atium, but not all the other nifty things Atium could do (which are mostly Word of Brandon; I don't think we have seen any in the books), they would not have necessarily realized just how special it was.  It seems at least 50/50 chance that Tears of Edgli have Awakening properties that just haven't been discovered yet.

[Vortaan]

The way the first explorers of the Hallandren valley react to jungles indicates that there aren't any elsewhere on Nalthis. I'm on a phone so quoting is hard, but Hoid's story in chapter 32 seems to indicate that the jungle is just as unique as Shinovar.

[Windrunner]

That's a great point, Vortaan. I hadn't seen you around in a while, welcome back!