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Atium is Ruin's Electrum, Lerasium is Preservation's Nicrosil


skaa

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As some of you might know, I formulated a theory a few days ago about Atium. It was basically a conspiracy theory, and was destroyed quite skillfully by Phantom and Voidus, among others. I abandoned that theory and thought a bit until I came upon another idea about Atium, and it led to a general theory about the God Metals.

 

This new theory was inspired by Isomere's theory of Shard-Metal correlation, as well as the following quote from the newly Shardified Sazed in HoA:

 

Atium, then, was an object that was one-sided. Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation--as, say, a rock would be--atium was completely of Ruin.

 

This quote implies that almost everything on Scadrial, including the metals and the people, contain Ruin and Preservation. Atium is an exception, containing only Ruin. The quote implies that Lerasium is another exception, containing only Preservation.

 

Before yesterday, I've always imagined Atium and Lerasium as "magic metals," not really thinking about their molecular structure, and assuming that they just work. But I realize now that I might have underestimated Brandon a bit.

 

Brandon had said that the metals on Scadrial all have physical properties identical to those of their real life counterparts (e.g. they are also made of atoms and molecules, follow basically similar physical laws, etc.). Brandon also said that the molecular structure of the metal influences the kind of Investiture that happens from tapping, burning, or impaling with it.

 

So, if the molecular structure of the metal is important, that means Atium and Lerasium also have a molecular structure, because they can also be used in the Metallic Arts. This means the God Metals are also made of atoms, and that these atoms also follow physical laws (at least when not being burned).

 

We already have knowledge of the physical and molecular structures of more than 100 chemical elements. After a certain point, the heavier an atom becomes the less stable it is, so we'll have to assume that Atium and Lerasium's constituent atoms must have atomic numbers below the very unstable heavy elements in the Periodic Table.

 

This is the first part of my theory: Atium and Lerasium are just different names for two "real life" metals or metal alloys.

 

But how do we determine which of the many metals in the Periodic Table, or the innumerable amount of possible metal alloys, is Atium? And which is Lerasium? Isn't that an impossible task without Brandon's help?

 

Well, Brandon did give us a clue: The molecular structure is important. This implies the following:

  • Two Allomantic metals containing similar atoms and similar structure would have similar powers. (This explains why a base metal's power is similar to that of its alloy.)
     
  • Atium only has Ruin in it, so we can assume that if we had the exact same metal as Atium but without the imbalance (i.e. if it had both Ruin and Preservation in it), it would have a power that is almost the same as Atium, except changed in a way to account for Preservation's presence. This might manifest in a change in direction (for example, Internal to External), or something like that. Same goes for Lerasium.

So, think of the effects of Atium Allomancy. Is there a known Allomantic metal with the same effect, except inverted somehow? Why, yes there is a metal just like that: Electrum.

 

Atium is electrum without Preservation. Atium is Ruin's Electrum.

 

How about Lerasium? Well, Isomere links Preservation to aluminum, and it seems like any of the Enhancement metals could fit, but I think nicrosil fits better due to the following reasons:

  • Nicrosil is an alloy, just like electrum.
  • Nicrosil and Lerasium exhibits the Others/Self inversion that we are looking for.
  • Nicrosil's Allomantic effects mirrors Lerasium in that they both grant enormous Investiture to their target.

So, Lerasium is nicrosil without Ruin. Lerasium is Preservation's Nicrosil.

 

I would also like to talk about the God Metal alloys. We know that Malatium Allomancy works just like gold, except inverted, so Malatium is gold without Preservation. From this, we can form another theory: Atium's alloys also have no Preservation in them. Or to make it more general: Alloying a God Metal with a base metal removes the other god from that metal as well. This has some very, very interesting implications:

  1. Atium-Electrum is just Atium (because electrum without Preservation is already Atium).
  2. Lerasium-Nicrosil is just Lerasium (for the same reason as above).
  3. You will not become a Nicroburst Misting by burning an alloy of Nicrosil and Lerasium. You'll become Mistborn.
  4. Nicrobust Mistings are born, not made (well, not made by Allomancy; they could still be made by Hemalurgy). A Mistborn bloodline will have to be diluted by having children with non-Allomancers before a Nicroburst could naturally appear.

This makes me wonder if it's just coincidence that the next Mistborn trilogy will feature a Nicrobust Misting. :D

 

Edit: Phantom kindly reminded me that Lerasium is green. This leads me to theorize that the removal of Ruin from nicrosil has a side-effect of oxidizing the metal, leading to the green color.

Edited by skaa
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Problem:

 

Lerasium is green.

 

Nicrosil is an alloy of Chromium, which turns green when oxidized. Perhaps the removal of Ruin from Nicrosil produces a physical side effect of oxidation.

 

Phantom, do you have any other comment regarding my theory? I mentioned a lot of things, after all.

Edited by skaa
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But Atium works nothing like Aluminum. If molecular structure really is important, Atium should at least work similarly to the metal it "corrupted".

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Well, thing is, "[brandon] built aluminum to do all sorts of funky things to all the powers".  It's a very weird metal - and atium is just normal atoms with a spiritual overlay. 

 

If we're trying to say what the atium would be like without the spiritual bit, I figure the weirdest normal metal is a good guess.

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Mmhmm, here's the quote for you, skaa, in case you hadn't seen it already.

Me: So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

BS: Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something]

is what makes it magical. (note: he might've said slightly more about this but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. Sorry for not bringing a tape recorder /> )

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Ninja'd by Windy...

Mind you, spiritual wrap might be the only thing that keeps Atium together. Are we sure, that without it it is even metal? It grows like crystal/mineral, it is apparently digested in the body - while usually a swallowed lump of metal simply goes out, as my father, who had the habit of eating bolts as a child, can attest :lol: . It is unstable (in body), dense (as lead or close enough), doesn't seem to form oxides... Also, spiritual can warp normal physical forces, creating a completely different structure from its normal form. Also, it serves as Allomantic fuel by itself, rather than as a gateway, so its atomic structure is possibly less relevant.

Also, if it is already a gold alloy, won't adding more gold (Malatium) make it another gold alloy? And how does your theory work for Lerasium-Atium alloys?

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Mmhmm, here's the quote for you, skaa, in case you hadn't seen it already.

Exactly. Atium is just normal electrum with (paraphrasing Sazed) an sDNA directed to Ruin.

Um, I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not, actually. Sorry. :)

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I wasn't really saying either way. Personally I'm inclined to disagree with you. Personally, I see the real metal at the core of the two god metals to be basically irrelevant. Much as the Allomantic properties of a metal are overwritten by a Feruchemical charge, I think that whatever metal is underneath the Shard's power have no influence on what the two god metals do. Personally, I'd go with aluminum as well, for as Phantom said, general weirdness.

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Well, thing is, "[brandon] built aluminum to do all sorts of funky things to all the powers".  It's a very weird metal - and atium is just normal atoms with a spiritual overlay. 

 

If we're trying to say what the atium would be like without the spiritual bit, I figure the weirdest normal metal is a good guess.

 

I wasn't really saying either way. Personally I'm inclined to disagree with you. Personally, I see the real metal at the core of the two god metals to be basically irrelevant. Much as the Allomantic properties of a metal are overwritten by a Feruchemical charge, I think that whatever metal is underneath the Shard's power have no influence on what the two god metals do. Personally, I'd go with aluminum as well, for as Phantom said, general weirdness.

 

 

So you'd basically just ignore this WoB, then?

 

It's actually the molecular structure of the metal... what's going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of "this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you."

 

I'm not sure why you won't even consider the theory. Even if Feruchemical charge overrides Allomantic charge, Feruchemy still relies upon the molecular structure of the metal. You can't store Health in an Ironmind, for example.

Edited by skaa
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Once again, you ignore the fact that Spiritual overlay can mess up electromagnetic forces that determine the molecular structure of said atoms. It may be aluminum, electrum or even oxygen or non-baryonic matter altogether, but wrapped in Ruin's essence it behaves like metal. I for one am very curious as to what it decays in body to - but nobody in trilogy ever bothered swallowing it en masse and waiting for it to go away - it was simply too valuable.

And, as mentioned twice already, it uses different power source.

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Atium is a god metal, and works differently than normal ones.

 

Personally, I'd go with aluminum as well, for as Phantom said, general weirdness.

 

Ha! That explains it! It's really weird! It can overrule any and all pre-existing rules! You can't theorize about it at all!

 

Personally, I became a fan of Brandon Sanderson because of his well-thought-out magic systems. Sure, they break the laws of physics lots of times, but at least they do it consistently and in a rule-based way. So I thought, perhaps, I could join in the theorizing, allowing you guys to correct and enlighten me when I'm missing something.

 

But saying "personally I'm inclined to disagree with you" without pointing out any mistake in the theory? Jeez!

 

*sigh*

 

Sorry for the rant. I already had a theoretical explanation in my first post for how Atium, as a God Metal, "works differently": it inverts the nature of the metal it is alloyed to and makes it Ruin-based. I've also mentioned lots of things in the theory that you could analyze and comment about.

 

To be sure, all this is purely theoretical. Who knows? Maybe Ruin just exclaimed thousands of years ago "Henceforth, all bunnies in this land are to be covered in my Spiritual overlay and become little beads of metal that, when Allomantically-burned, shall produce the effects similar to Electrum! Shazzam!"

 

Or maybe not.

 

Edit: The above reply showcases the hotheadedness of mundane skaa slaves, and thus it should remain here to serve as an example and to be laughed at by all.

 

Anyway, I take the insults back. Atium doesn't have to be electrum. I'm just speculating that it is. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Edited by skaa
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The thing is, it doesn't take much to change "molecular structure" enough to produce a different effect. Steel is iron with 1-2 percent carbon, yet physically and allomantically a different metal. Atium is probably 90% spiritual by weight, uses itself as a fuel and filter at the same time and grows from crystals, so it being similar to its material anchor in a function that is unnatural to its essence is in no way guaranteed.

Also, Allomantic functions are how human bodies interpret the power. For Ruin, burning Atium would give it it's power back, and that is the power to do anything.

Edited by Satsuoni
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Once again, you ignore the fact that Spiritual overlay can mess up electromagnetic forces that determine the molecular structure of said atoms. It may be aluminum, electrum or even oxygen or non-baryonic matter altogether, but wrapped in Ruin's essence it behaves like metal. I for one am very curious as to what it decays in body to - but nobody in trilogy ever bothered swallowing it en masse and waiting for it to go away - it was simply too valuable.

And, as mentioned twice already, it uses different power source.

 

Brandon does normally obey the laws of physics, except when magic is breaking them. To hold together oxygen in solid form would likely require a continual injection of spiritual power to break the laws of physics. I think it's more likely that whatever the god metals are, they are naturally some sort of metal that is metallic and stable at room temperature so that they don't require constant magic to be real in our world.

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Overall I like the thought that went into this theory. I went and read the entire epigraph from the OP quote and your ideas make more sense in that context. From Windy's quote, atium is normal matter. If you find a metal with the same number of protons as Atium, they both would have the same molecular structure and would create the same "aon". However, there IS a marked difference between god-metal and normal metal, and it's pretty hard to say for certain how that would affect things. 
 
Based on my theory, the atomic structure of electrum is directly linked to Ruin in some manner. It would make perfect sense for him to manifest in the physical realm by recreating this pattern. I support the theory that Atium is Electrum imbued with massive amounts of Ruin's Power, but there are many other options that are equally valid. 

 

I strongly disagree with the idea of Nicrosil correlating directly to Lerasium. There is no convincing evidence that Lerasium permanently changes your Investiture, rather it Attunes your Identity to Preservation. To counter your points above supporting the Nicrosil option:

 

  • Nicrosil is an alloy, just like electrum - It would also create nice symmetry if Ati formed an alloy and Leras formed a pure metal.
  • Nicrosil and Lerasium exhibits the Others/Self inversion that we are looking for -  This inversion is common to both theories. Lerasium alters your own Identity, Aluminum alters the Identity of Metals that you can contact allomantically. 
  • Nicrosil's Allomantic effects mirrors Lerasium in that they both grant enormous Investiture to their target -  I see no evidence that Lerasium alters your Investiture. 
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The thing is, it doesn't take much to change "molecular structure" enough to produce a different effect. Steel is iron with 1-2 percent carbon, yet physically and allomantically a different metal.

 

I agree. In fact, you can change the effect without changing the molecular structure simply by removing the influence of one of the Shards. For example, remove Preservation from Electrum and it will produce a Self-Others inversion. But the structure still dictates a part of the effect. For example, Steel is mostly Iron, so it still applies some kind of force on metal objects just like Iron; it's just the direction that changed.

 

Also, sorry for the "Atium is bunnies!" comment I made yesterday. It was pretty rude of me.

 

 

I strongly disagree with the idea of Nicrosil correlating directly to Lerasium. There is no convincing evidence that Lerasium permanently changes your Investiture, rather it Attunes your Identity to Preservation.

 

I think our disagreement is definitional. That is, we disagree about the definition of Investiture. My understanding of Investiture is that it is the Realmatic term for transferring something (energy, trait, power etc.) from one thing to another via Realmatic powers. Hence, a Feruchemist Invests his metalminds with Feruchemical charges, Preservation Invests an Allomancer with power, and a Hemalurgist Invests himself with other people's attributes.

 

In Allomancy, the highest form of Investiture is the Investiture to a person with the power to burn all Allomantic metals (which Preservation grants when a person burns the God Metal Lerasium). The reason why I no longer see aluminum as Preservation's metal is because Aluminum Allomancy doesn't Invest anything to the Allomancer. In fact, it prevents any Allomantic Investiture from happening by erasing metal stores.

 

Of course, if my definition of Investiture is incorrect, then perhaps Nicrosil isn't Preservation's metal. :)

 

By the way, I'm developing a theory on Aluminum, inspired in part by the discussion in this thread, which I might post tomorrow.

Edited by skaa
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Being granted Investiture, and Attuning your Identity to a Shard are two very different things.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977/#5

Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard’s power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn’t make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different—but those people are invested. I term this Innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate.

 
I define Investiture as a piece of a Shard. The bits of Ruin and Preservation inside of people on Scadrial are one type, and allow access to the three Metallic Arts. The two massive lumps of Investiture Sazed picked up to become Harmony are another type.

Other examples include both types of Breath on Nalthis and the Aons inside a Seon on Sel. All spren on Roshar have pieces of the Almighty inside them, and Honorspren seem to be more powerfully Invested. 
 
Now to discuss Identity:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=688#8

But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though."

 
So if you are from Scadrial and got a huge number of Breaths you still couldn't use them. Why? Because you don't have the right Identity. We see that on all the planets actually. Kaladin has access to the same amount of Investiture, but his Surgebinding becomes more powerful as his Identity is Attuned to Honor by acting honorably, saying the Ideals, etc.


On Scadrial, you can't use Allomancy until after you have Snapped. That process requires undergoing intense trauma that I believe helps attune your Identity to Preservation. I discuss my ideas about how Lerasium works here. Some people think that Lerasium does grant you a piece of Preservation. That is possible, but Brandon has implied that it works differently:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#45

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. 

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1729-a-late-breaking-report/

Lerasium overwrites Spiritual DNA. It can do some interesting things, and can overwrite your Spiritual DNA in different ways if you do it right. If a Surgebinder ate lerasium, he would become an Allomancer, but Brandon implied other things could be done.

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Note that there's a difference between being half preservation/half ruin in the sense of being a rock, and in the sense of being a lerasium/atium alloy.

 

The second one has a good chance of becoming a nuclear-grade explosion.

 

LOL! That'd certainly be more awesome than what I think will happen. :lol:

 

I think a Lerasium-Atium alloy will only Invest Atium Allomancy (creating an Atium Misting). But since this is an alloy of two God Metals, the Inversion principle cancels out, leading to three scenarios:

 

  • If the alloy contains more Lerasium, then its direction will be the same as Nicrosil's. Meaning the person who burns Lerasium-Atium won't get the Atium Misting power. Rather, it will be stolen from him by the person who touches him while he's burning it. This also means that if nobody touches him, the Atium Misting power vanishes and is wasted.

     

  • If there is more Atium in it, the user will probably become an Atium Misting (because it will follow Electrum's direction).

     

  • If there are exactly the same amount of Lerasium and Atium in the alloy... I don't know. Perhaps that nuclear-grade explosion is possible after all, Phantom! :D
Edited by skaa
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LOL! That'd certainly be more awesome than what I think will happen. :lol:

 

I think a Lerasium-Atium alloy will only create Atium Mistings

 

Well, that's one of the two possibilities.

http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?&topic=7502.msg165365

"Ask what a Lerasium Atium alloy would do."

"Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand."

I interrupted here to ask if Sazed or Hoid would know, and he - of course - RAFO'd.

"What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer?"

 

By the way, the atium being more than future sight?  I'm personally pretty sure it's related to lerasium's alternate uses.  That is, lerasium by default makes you into a mistborn, and atium by default gives you a glimpse into other people's futures - but if you were totally cosmere-aware you could probably do all sorts of other things with them.  See through walls with atium or something I dunno.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=692

"By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer."

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Well, that's one of the two possibilities.

 

 

By the way, the atium being more than future sight?  I'm personally pretty sure it's related to lerasium's alternate uses.  That is, lerasium by default makes you into a mistborn, and atium by default gives you a glimpse into other people's futures - but if you were totally cosmere-aware you could probably do all sorts of other things with them.  See through walls with atium or something I dunno.

 

That's pretty cool. I'm starting to wish Brandon would just release the complete tables for Atium alloy Allomancy and Lerasium alloy Hemalurgy.

 

Why is the second trilogy so far away?!!! *sobs*

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I think this conversation could be assisted by some clear understanding of terminology.

 

1) A metal (pure) does not form a molecule per se.  In other words, a molecule of iron would be an atom of iron.  So the molecular structure of a metal is actually the atomic structure of the metal.  For those of you with some knowledge of things like cubic structure or hexagonal structure in metals, I offer the following.  Iron can exist in two crystalline forms; body centered cubic (BCC) and face centered cubic (FCC).  These forms are the crystal structure of iron.  The crystal structure should not be confused with a molecular structure.  I also note that metals, if cooled in a specific manner may also be amorphous (i.e., no crystal structure; solid soup, if you will).  While a metal exhibits different properties in each of it's possible crystalline states, it is still fundamentally and immutably the same metal.

 

2) An alloy is a blend of two or more elements where one of which is a metal.  Typically, one or more elements are dissolved in a metal.  No chemical reaction takes place (i.e., no covalent or ionic bonds are formed).  Some metals do this in a very happy and friendly manner (such as is the case with copper and nickel since they are mutally solvent in one another at any concentration) others are not as friendly with each other and only blend in certain concentrations and under certain conditions (such as is the case with iron and carbon). 

 

Steel is iron with 0.002-2% carbon and cast iron is iron with 2-4% carbon.  However, at different compositional amounts (and temperatures) carbon is no longer soluble in the iron and forms a ceramic compound (Fe3C) called cementite.  The cementite is present in the cast iron or steel in a similar manner to how a chocalate chip is present in a cookie (i.e, having an independent structure from the cake part of the cookie; two distinct solid phases).  In other words, if you were asked what the molecular structure of cast iron is, the correct answer would be "It depends on what part of the cast iron you mean". 

 

So, the molecular structure of an alloy is a blend of the molecular/atomic structure of its constituent parts.  In other words, brass does not have a molecule made up of copper and zinc atoms.  It is a blend just like sugar is a blend of sugar molecules dissolved in water molecules rather than forming a new combined molecule (yes, I am leaving out hydrogen and polar bonding for the sake of simplicity). 

 

Now, although an alloy is a blend of atoms, it is not simply a blend of the properties of the constituent metals.  For example, alloys of titanium and aluminum have some marvelous properties that could not be predicted by merely referencing the properties of each of aluminum and titanium.

 

I apologize, this seemed like it would be a lot simpler to explain before I started writing.  I hope this has provided some clarity rather than confusion.

 

Note: This info comes by way of degrees in Materials Science and Engineering and Metallurgical Engineering.

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