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(Theory) Gavilar Carried a Radiantblade


Cernwennan

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After re-reading The Way of Kings again, making likely a dozen times now, something leaped straight out of the pages and slapped me across the face that I had never considered before, and judging from a cursory search has not been brought up yet.  (If I'm wrong and it has, which I hope I am not, feel free to tell me.)

 

It was an epiphany, of sorts.  So let me lay it out.

 

It's been confirmed that there are 3 types of Shardblades, yes?  Dawnshards, the 10 blades of the Heralds, Honorblades of the Knights Radiant, and Shardblades (which Syl hates and is evidence enough that they aren't good, whether or not they are of Odiuum or not.)

 

Here is a description of Oathbringer, Dalinar's Shardblade :

 

"Oathbringer—formed in his hand, coalescing from mist, appearing as the tenth beat of his heart thudded in his chest. Six feet long from tip to hilt, the Blade would have been unwieldy in the hands of any man not wearing Shardplate. To Dalinar, it felt perfect. He’d carried Oathbringer since his youth, Bonding to it when he was twenty Weepings old. It was long and slightly curved, a handspan wide, with wavelike serrations near the hilt. It curved at the tip like a fisherman’s hook, and was wet with cold dew."

 

And here is one of Elhokar's blade :

 

"Elhokar bellowed, his Shardblade—Sunraiser—springing from mist into his hand. It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs."

 

Here's where the epiphany comes in.  Check this out :

 

"an enormous Shardblade six feet long with a design along the blade like burning flames, a weapon of silvery metal that gleamed and almost seemed to glow. A weapon designed to slay dark gods, a larger counterpart to the one Szeth carried."

 

That is the description of Gavilar's blade, which is clearly not the same as Elhokar's blade.  It is also described entirely different from any other Shardblade in the book -- with the exception of the blades carried by the Knights Radiant in Dalinar's vision.

 

It is repeatedly stated that Gavilar began to change towards the end of his life, taking lessons from the Way of Kings and generally being far more honorable than he was normally.  His last words for Dalinar perhaps are a clue as well.

 

While Shardplate can be repainted, and Elhokar could indeed possess Gavilar's suit, there is a missing shardblade here -- Gavilar's.

 

Here is where I may be stretching it.  I am confident that Gavilar's shardblade was an Honorblade, or becoming one at least (much as Honorblades lost their glow and became Shardblades in Dalinar's vision), however this next bit requires a leap.

 

Gavilar's blade is never mentioned again.  It is tradition that, if defeated, the opponent has claim over the defeated's shards.  Perhaps, upon finding Gavilar's body, they assumed that the assassin took Gavilar's blade.  Szeth, however, did not.

 

Is it not so that Dawnshards vanish upon the death of their wielder?  (Hence Taln being alive at the end of WoK, since his blade remains.)

 

Is it possible that Gavilar possessed a Dawnshard?  Perhaps.  Did he at least possess an Honorblade?  Absolutely.

 

Anyway!  Let me know what you think!

Edited by Cernwennan
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I think that the piece about his blade glowing is a strong indicator that something important was going on. I think that there was definately more going on with Gavilar than we know, and I think it is entirely possible that Gavilar will have a book of his own where the flash backs are dedicated to him.

 

As for the part about Taln and his blade, I think that he was dead. I am aware that many believe he was alive and the blade remained simply because they were Dawnshards. However, it is well established throughout the book that blades only remain when not being held by their user under two specific conditions. 1: The bearer dies, or 2: The User wills the blade to remain.

 

Mr. Sanderson has always been very straight up with his readers. IF he wanted to suggest to readers that Taln was still alive, even with the blade remaining, then I think he would have included more foreshadowing to show that the blade COULD actually remain without the user willing it to. 

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It's been confirmed that there are 3 types of Shardblades, yes?  Dawnshards, the 10 blades of the Heralds, Honorblades of the Knights Radiant, and Shardblades (which Syl hates and is evidence enough that they aren't good, whether or not they are of Odiuum or not.)

 

...there is a missing shardblade here -- Gavilar's.

 

Here is where I may be stretching it.  I am confident that Gavilar's shardblade was an Honorblade, or becoming one at least (much as Honorblades lost their glow and became Shardblades in Dalinar's vision), however this next bit requires a leap.

 

Gavilar's blade is never mentioned again.  It is tradition that, if defeated, the opponent has claim over the defeated's shards.  Perhaps, upon finding Gavilar's body, they assumed that the assassin took Gavilar's blade.  Szeth, however, did not.

 

Is it not so that Dawnshards vanish upon the death of their wielder?  (Hence Taln being alive at the end of WoK, since his blade remains.)

 

Is it possible that Gavilar possessed a Dawnshard?  Perhaps.  Did he at least possess an Honorblade?  Absolutely.

 

Anyway!  Let me know what you think!

 

Welcome to the 17th Shard!  I am delighted to see your participation.  I want to politely take issue with some details that I see here.  Please accept my apologies if some of this seems harsh to you. 

 

The knights Radiant did not have Honorblades.  They had Shardblades, some of which are presumably still in use by the likes of Dalinar, Adolin and the Parshendi Shardbearer. 

 

I think that the piece about his blade glowing is a strong indicator that something important was going on. I think that there was definately more going on with Gavilar than we know, and I think it is entirely possible that Gavilar will have a book of his own where the flash backs are dedicated to him.

 

As for the part about Taln and his blade, I think that he was dead. I am aware that many believe he was alive and the blade remained simply because they were Dawnshards. However, it is well established throughout the book that blades only remain when not being held by their user under two specific conditions. 1: The bearer dies, or 2: The User wills the blade to remain.

 

From the prelude:

 

... Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns.  He recognized each one.  If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

These blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades.  Therse were unique.  Precious.  ...

 

From the Prologue:

Beside the king's body, his Shardblade materialized from mist, clattering to the stones now that it's master was dead.

 

Unless I believe that Kalak is deluded (which I don't):

Gavilar's Shardblade is not an Honorblade because it reappeared rather than vanishing when he died. 

In addition, I am aware of no evidence that it is powerful beyond other Shardblades.  Somebody bore it before and after Gavilar, and there has been no commentary among the Alethi about any Shardblades being non-cosmetically different.  The commentary about it seeming to glow could have been a sign of Gavilar's advancement, I suppose, as Dalinar's plate seems to glow on occasion. 

 

I am aware of no evidence to indicate that Gavilar's sword is missing and the second quote shows that if it did go missing, it would have been after Szeth left. 

 

Taln, unless you think he was not carrying the Honorblade that apparently bound him to the Oathpact and disappeared when he died, would be still alive, since his blade stayed. 

 

As for Dawnshards, this thread drew no conclusions about whether they were Honorblades and Brandon RAFOed the same question last September

 

Dawnshards are referenced on the back cover, in Tanavast's final speech to Dalinar and one of the epigraphs.  The epigraph says:

 

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

The Shardblades we've seen seem to bind to their owners, rather than bind them, so this epigraph might suggest that they are more like the Shards of Adonalsium than Shardblades. 

 

In this thread, the apparent near-consensus is that the three types of Shardblades are: Honorblades, Radiantblades/Shardblades and Szethblades. 

Edited by hoser
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@Hoser

 

Not harsh at all, I welcome all criticism of my ideas, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on one important point.

 

I see that you believe the three types of blades are Honorblades, Radiant/Shardblades, and Szethblades (Not sure I agree with you on the last, as aside from it's size there is no difference between it and a Shardblade, however I can see how it could be classified as such.)  This leaves the Dawnshards as a fourth type of blade.  Okay.

 

When I said that Gavilar possessed an Honorblade, it was using the belief that the three types of blades were Dawnshards, Honorblades, Shardblades.  So, adapting to your belief in the types of blades, my theory is that Gavilar possessed a Radiantblade.

 

I say that he did possess a Radiantblade (or by my three-type definition, Honorblade) with a nearly absolute certainty.  Only in Dalinar's visions of the Knights Radiant was any Shardblade described as Gavilar's (or vice versa) to be glowing.  (Yes, Dalinar's plate was also glowing much like the Radiants in his visions).

 

Now, you're right, Gavilar's blade did materialize after he died -- therefore not a Dawnshard -- but here's where the mystery comes in.

 

Elhokar's Shardblade is NOT Gavilar's.  That much is certain.  Nor any others that we have seen so far in the novel.  If Gavilar's Radiant/Honorblade were to be recovered at the body, surely Elhokar would have taken it and Sunraiser would have been distributed.  Why do I say this?

 

Because Gavilar's blade is also the KING's blade.  Not only would it be a sentimental omage to the King, but it would be a visible symbol.  Elhokar or Dalinar would have taken Gavilar's blade.

 

Which means it is missing.  Presumed taken by the assassin by the Alethi is my guess, only we know Szeth did not take it.  Which means someone else took it, someone else knew of the importance of that blade...

 

 

...

 

That just got me thinking.  There's no reason justified for Szeth assassinating the Gavilar.  It made no sense.  Unless someone knew Gavilar held a Radiant/Honorblade.  Someone who would swoop in and take it before anyone else could, and keep it for some purpose.

 

But even now, Dalinar only has a vague idea of the difference between a Radiant/Honorblade and a Shardblade, and he's been given the visions.  So, who else could it be?

 

The most obvious choice is the Parshendi knew about the Radiant/Honorblade and sought it for themselves.  (I imagine it would fade just as the ones in Dalinar's vision.)  It would give the motive, even if they did nothing else but cause the Radiant/Honorblade to "turn into" just a regular Shardblade.  I imagine there is some drastic difference between the two.  Seems plausible to me, at least.

 

The more farfetched (and done before, so I doubt Brandon would do it again) would be Hoid.  Like the bead of Lerasium he took in WoA, he might've wanted/needed a Radiant/Honorblade for himself for some reason.

 

In either case -- I think it is safe to say that Gavilar's blade is in the hands of someone not even Dalinar knows.  Like I said, they likely naturally assume that his blade was taken by the assassin.  That is Alethi tradition, after all.  To the victor go the spoils, so to speak.

 

I imagine we will see Gavilar's blade again.  I doubt it will be in the hands of a friendly, though.

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@Hoser

 

Not harsh at all, I welcome all criticism of my ideas, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on one important point.

 

I see that you believe the three types of blades are Honorblades, Radiant/Shardblades, and Szethblades (Not sure I agree with you on the last, as aside from it's size there is no difference between it and a Shardblade, however I can see how it could be classified as such.)  This leaves the Dawnshards as a fourth type of blade.  Okay.

 

When I said that Gavilar possessed an Honorblade, it was using the belief that the three types of blades were Dawnshards, Honorblades, Shardblades.  So, adapting to your belief in the types of blades, my theory is that Gavilar possessed a Radiantblade.

 

I say that he did possess a Radiantblade (or by my three-type definition, Honorblade) with a nearly absolute certainty.  Only in Dalinar's visions of the Knights Radiant was any Shardblade described as Gavilar's (or vice versa) to be glowing.  (Yes, Dalinar's plate was also glowing much like the Radiants in his visions).

 

Now, you're right, Gavilar's blade did materialize after he died -- therefore not a Dawnshard -- but here's where the mystery comes in.

 

Elhokar's Shardblade is NOT Gavilar's.  That much is certain.  Nor any others that we have seen so far in the novel.  If Gavilar's Radiant/Honorblade were to be recovered at the body, surely Elhokar would have taken it and Sunraiser would have been distributed.  Why do I say this?

 

Because Gavilar's blade is also the KING's blade.  Not only would it be a sentimental omage to the King, but it would be a visible symbol.  Elhokar or Dalinar would have taken Gavilar's blade.

 

Which means it is missing.  Presumed taken by the assassin by the Alethi is my guess, only we know Szeth did not take it.  Which means someone else took it, someone else knew of the importance of that blade...

 

 

...

 

That just got me thinking.  There's no reason justified for Szeth assassinating the Gavilar.  It made no sense.  Unless someone knew Gavilar held a Radiant/Honorblade.  Someone who would swoop in and take it before anyone else could, and keep it for some purpose.

 

But even now, Dalinar only has a vague idea of the difference between a Radiant/Honorblade and a Shardblade, and he's been given the visions.  So, who else could it be?

 

The more farfetched (and done before, so I doubt Brandon would do it again) would be Hoid.  Like the bead of Lerasium he took in WoA, he might've wanted/needed a Radiant/Honorblade for himself for some reason.

 

I imagine we will see Gavilar's blade again.  I doubt it will be in the hands of a friendly, though.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. 

I wonder why you believe that the DawnShards are ShardBlades?  They are a mystery, as far as I can tell.  Given that there are three types of Shardblades, we have WOB that Honorblades are a type of Shardblade and Szeth's sword looks (not as ornate, longer, thinner, double-sided) and behaves (temporary change of eyecolor to the windrunner color and lightness, may be the source of Szeth's windrunner abilities) differently makes Dawnshards, by process of elimination, not Shardblades unless they are Honorblades (RAFOed). 

 

What happened to Gavilar's blade?  The fact that Brandon RAFOed ( I remember this, but can't find the quote) the question suggests to me that you are onto something.  If it is missing (I remember nothing either way), I consider Hoid a definite suspect.  Even if he didn't wield it himself, he could find someone to use it.  He does seem to be collecting Shard souvenirs. 

 

The readings for Stormlight 2 have revealed that the Parshendi turned on Gavilar because of something he planned to do, that he told them about after the treaty was signed.  The Parshendi signed the treaty sincerely, but killed him to stop him from doing something they learned about that very day.  They may have been too late, but it was not to steal his DawnShardblade. 

 

As for Elhokar taking Gavilar's blade, that seems like an assumption.  Both Dalinar and Elhokar seem to feel an attachment to their magical items.  Elhokar could have chosen to keep the blade he already had. 

Edited by hoser
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I agree with hoser, and strongly feel that Dawnshards are not a type of Blade. I think they're something we're not supposed to really understand yet, and I for one would be disappointed for them to be yet another type of magical sword. That being said, I have no evidence to back this belief up XD

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Alright, after consideration and the reasonable responses I suppose I can see how Dawnshards are not the 10 blades held by the Heralds (every reading of WoK had led me to this conclusion, as I suspect there being only 10 Honorblades to be...odd, I guess.)

 

As far as Szeth's blade, I completely forgot about the unusual properties associated with it, so yes, it must be something different.

 

As for Gavilar's blade, it's disappearance is never stated but just something I have drawn a conclusion of.  Once it appears after he dies, and Szeth refuses to take it up, it is never mentioned again.

 

I haven't read anything on the new Stormlight book, since I am waiting for the whole thing so I can obsess about it the way I've done with all of Brandon's other works, so if the Parshendi did not kill Gavilar for his blade, and his blade did not go to Dalinar or Elhokar (Attachment to their blades or not, again it is the King's blade.  The symbolism and attachment for that blade would be far more than anything else.  If it were my brother, and I felt responsible for it and wanted to wage a vengeance war for his murder, I would use that blade myself.), then someone else has it.

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As for the part about Taln and his blade, I think that he was dead. I am aware that many believe he was alive and the blade remained simply because they were Dawnshards. However, it is well established throughout the book that blades only remain when not being held by their user under two specific conditions. 1: The bearer dies, or 2: The User wills the blade to remain.

 

Actually, Brandon has confirmed that there will be a Taln interlude in WoR. It's possible that it could be a flashback, but I find this doubtful since all of the interludes we've read so far have been taking place real-time. I couldn't find the exact Brandon quote, but there is something here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As for the part about Taln and his blade, I think that he was dead. I am aware that many believe he was alive and the blade remained simply because they were Dawnshards. However, it is well established throughout the book that blades only remain when not being held by their user under two specific conditions. 1: The bearer dies, or 2: The User wills the blade to remain.

It was specifically stated in the prelude that the Herald's blades disappear when they die.

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Actually, Brandon has confirmed that there will be a Taln interlude in WoR. It's possible that it could be a flashback, but I find this doubtful since all of the interludes we've read so far have been taking place real-time. I couldn't find the exact Brandon quote, but there is something here.

 

What I remember is that there will be a book based around Taln.  I always assumed he would have a bigger role to play in the future.  Even if he's dead, I suspect he will get involved again.  I mean, Kelsier gets to play god after a single lifetime.  Why wouldn't Taln after what were probably hundreds of lifetimes?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have read the threads about the types of shard blades and have long been of the opinion that the heralds possessed the dawnshards. My evidence for this is when Tanavast in the flashback says you could get him to choose a champion but it would be difficult without the dawnshards (I don't have the book at the moment so I can't quote but I believe this is very roughly what he said). Why would the dawnshards be useful in a fight against Odium's champion unless it was a blade.

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The only thing we really know about the Dawnshards is from the Poem of Ista, and this source could be fiction or corrupted truth.

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.   Ch 36 epilogue

I am hoping the Dawnshards turn out to be something more grand than "just another magic sword". 

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