Weight has nothing to do with allomantic Push/pull strength.

[Galladon]

So I came here to discuss some inconsitancies and what do I find a have finished physics discussion- YAY.

 

There is a simple thought experiment to do here:

If two equally strong (but with different masses) Allumancers lay on their backs and pushed up a metal block (equal masses) - what will happen.

P1:= person with m1=2*m2

P2:= person with m2

 

Theory 1: mass effects the strength of the push: 

-expected result: P1 pushes higher than p2 

-possible explanation: the allunmantic force factors in mass: eg. F= Constant*(1/4*pi)*(Reaktivity*Strength*mass)/r² 

                    Reaktivity: how well a certain metal responds to the exurdet allumantic Strength

This is how something like this could look like.

 

Result: you have an virtually infinite mass behind you (planet) => virtually infinate force (of course not infinate- but close enough for our cause)

 

Theory 2: mass only effects your movement not your allumantic force

-expected result: P1 pushes as high as P2

-possible explanation: eg. F= Constant*(1/4*pi)*(Reaktivity*Strength)/r² 

 

Result: a very sensible system...

 

Conclusion: you cannot factor in mass (in a sensible way), because you get all kind of weird stuff as soon as you lay on your back (I know that this sentence will make any scientist cringe but it simply illustrates the point I'm trying to make). Therefore mass is only relevant for equation of motion. 

 

To explain why someone with higher masis a better anchor for force: 2 similar cars play tug rope one has summer tires the other has winter tires. Friction is the analogue to inertia.

 

 

So here are my questions: how do you think this allumantic force works (which force is it similar in build to - I chose electric force)?

Is the whole body effected or only the chest (blue lines)?

[beagel]

You don't need to start with formulas and stuff. Thinking there is always enough stuff around to anchor yourself is madness. It's not the forces, it's the geometry. Trying to anchor yourself against stuff around you that isn't distributed right is very complicated. If you got a better "inherent" anchor by weight it would be far easier.

That also explains why Kelsier was impressed with Vin, because she has less weight to anchor her by herself and still pummeled him, meaning she could balance her anchoring against her surrounding better.

But don't worry, the geometry thing is something Brandon forgets too, there are some places where it gets a bit wonky in the books (prime example is Demoux's duel, influencing a duel in a meaningful way by excerting force along one special vector is a bit silly. Kelsier can't even change the elevation (he had to jump up and down for that, remember it goes out of the center of mass. And pushes/pulls against the swords center of mass, so you can't change the orientation by pushing/pulling itself). And that's not the end, the manner in which Demoux is holding the sword and his body has to be taken into account, everything in fractions of a second. Madness!).

[Moogle]

And pushes/pulls against the swords center of mass, so you can't change the orientation by pushing/pulling itself

 

Actually, later in the book, Kelsier Pushes and Pulls on the two ends of a metal bar, sending it spinning like a windmill, so I don't think he had to affect only the center of mass.

 

 

And that's not the end, the manner in which Demoux is holding the sword and his body has to be taken into account, everything in fractions of a second. Madness!

 

According to this WoB, that's accounted for by the steel/iron expanding your mind:

 

Allomancy’s Mental Effects

An interesting side note is to watch how Allomancy—all of its forms—enhances the mind in some way. Though the original concept for the magic system focused on different powers—some physical, some mental—the final product always had a mental component. Notice how, when burning tin, Spook is more able to focus on solitary conversations in the room. Or how his mind can filter out the mist or the cloth he wears. Burning pewter or tin will also make the mind more alert and awake. Burning atium not only lets one see a little bit into the future, but also lets one process that information in a useful way.

(source)

[beagel]

Well Sanderson needing Asspulls or Deus Ex Machina or whatever you wanna call them says a lot.

And even then you need to jump up, down and to the sides to manipulate the sword in any meaningful way. And the second part doesn't really solve anything because that is the opening of Pandoras box: why, oh why don't they use it in all battles then, no in all other situations. Just knowing how to move so the other one falls into his own sword seems very powerful, as does the ability to stay dry when it rains, because you can move out of the way of the drops. Insane spatial reasoning is just too much for a secondary power.

 

And the gist of the matter stands: Higher weight means the ability to anchor yourself without needing to use the environment as much, which can be bloody tricky to use... And it's a way easier explanation for the question than discussions about the gritty physics behind the magic...

[Aiken Frost]

Just knowing how to move so the other one falls into his own sword seems very powerful

 

There is a reason why people don't use metal weapons in the Final Empire...

[Youngy]

Ahhh! And I thought I understood Steel-Pushing... 

(Until I read this thread, now I think I might beat my head against a desk until I understand it)


I think our problems come back to the one simple scenario that we have seen more than a few times in the novels. If we can understand it, then we should be able to work the rest out.

1. A Coinshot pushes a coin. The coin accelerates, but they aren't overly affected by this.

2. The coin shoots through the air.

3. The coin reaches a solid object. At this point, the coin stops accelerating, and the Coinshot is hurled backwards. 

The very fact that the Coinshot isn't immediately hurled back as soon as he starts pushing means the Force applied to him only gets relevant when the coin reaches an anchor. This means that the Force applied to both objects changes depending on their situation...

And now I need to stop and think about it.

If someone can explain this situation completely, we should be able to work it out. 

[Satsuoni]

As I am pretty sure I mentioned, it might help to think that you are poking a coin with a stick In that case you also cannot push off the coin in the air, but can push off if it is on the floor or against the wall.

[beagel]

There is a reason why people don't use metal weapons in the Final Empire...

 

And the material has absolutely nothing to do with my point... I'm talking about fast, instinctive mastery of geometry and mechanics. But letting the other one fall into his sword is a bad example, depends too much on the other person. Never falling or stumbling, never getting hit with something because you know what force in which direction is needed, just like that... Isn't that in itself more powerful than steel pushing itself?

Another thing: i remember something about Wax misjudging a push. That means that it isn't instinctual and that means that, unless you have a heavy object exactly behind you, anchoring against the environment should be really hard, which shows the importance of bodyweight. You aren't stronger but you can push with more abandon...

 

 

And of course the forces change, force is acceleration times mass and when the mass jumps from one coin to the whole planet (plus a coin)... This is just what we are writing here, mechanics!

[MistLord]

No idea if this discussion is continuing or not... but if it is:

 

Elend was able to Push a Steel Inquisitor away because it was unprepared for strength of a Lerasium-Mistborn (view the beginning of The Hero Of Ages). 

 

Conversely, weight has always been a very important factor (Wax using his Ironminds to his advantage). 

 

Strength is important, but so is weight. I would agree with the idea that weight allows one to properly assert their strength (grounding themselves) but in a where something is heavier than something else, most of the time it is negligible. 

[Helwar]

Sorry for necromancing this a second time but...

 

Weight is important in allomancy, that's clear. Explained a thousand times. Push something lighter than you, it moves. Push something heavier, you move. And then in the in betweens both move.

 

¿But how exactly weight interacts with the strength of the push?

 

I think that your mass doesn't make you stronger or weaker, but you can apparently seem so.

 

 

For example, let's put two guys with the same strength: they both can lift a 400lb object at max, but one weighs 100 and the other 200. When lifting other things their mass is irrelevant... but when they do push-ups (lift themselves) it's when the difference is noted. The lighter guy will need half the strength to push himself up. At the end of a 10 push-ups set, the heavyer guy will be more tired than the lighter one, and he would seem weaker because of that.

 

Another example doing the opposite thing: 

 

If you have a see-saw, and on one side you put a box that weighs 50lb, both guys will be able to push on their end and lift it. But if the box where exactly 100lb, the lighter guy would only be able to lift it halfway and he would lift himself up by doing so, while the other one would still be able to completely lift the box. If the box weighed more than 100, the lighter guy wouldn't be able to lift it at all UNLESS, he anchored himself by (for example) putting his feet on the ceiling and pushing from there.

 

 

 

 

That's why, I think, Wax increases his weight to do these dramatic pushes, because weighing more means he can use a bigger percentage of his strength without lifting himself, because the "action-reaction" force applied by his targets would not be enough to compensate gravity's pull.

 

Also, Elend can push the Inquisitor away so easily because he caught him off-guard. He's stronger than it looks, and the Inquisitor didn't brace himself enough to compensate this push, while Elend knew exacly his own strength and braced himself (anchored) accordingly, connecting his mass to that of the earth and transmitting the acceleration there, where it's negligible. In that case, individual weight didn't have anything to do with the result.

 

 

 

 

P.D.: English is not my native language and though I tried to correct any mistakes and typos, there maybe a lot in here yet, so... I'm sorry. If you find some that are particularly offensive please do tell and I'll correct them.