The Focus on Roshar is Waveforms

[Isomere]

There have been a bunch of theories out there that spren are the physical focus of magic in Roshar, but they all seem to have trouble. There are just so many exceptions. I have found a solid theory that will work for all the aspects of magic we've seen so far in the book. 

 

Any waveform can satisfy the need for a physical focus on Roshar. This includes sound, light, and spren (which represent quantum waveforms imbued with investiture). 

 

SOUND: There is good evidence that sound has been used as a focus for magics on Roshar. Examples include The dawnsingers, Dawnchant, the Dawncities, the Parshendi song, the Eternal Words, etc. There is evidence that soulcasting creates an associated sound, but unless the casting is very dramatic the sound is not audible. One example where the sound did occur is when Jasnah removes the stone debris for Taravangian. “And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.” (From chapter 5).  Other examples of sound include the heartbeat for summoning a shardblade, the verbal request for a boon from the Old Magic, and the rhythm of battle with the thrill. Cultivation also apparently uses rhythm, and her magic is associated with soul-sprouts: “When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.”(from Chapter 7)

 

LIGHT:

Stormlight seems the obvious focus at first glance, but I think it actually corresponds to the vapor form of Honor's Body similar to the mists in Scadrial

. The fabrials are in part based on the particular cut of the stormgems, "Patterns of stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem." (see translation of Navani’s Notes). So light waves may also contribute as a focus for magic. The other aspect of fabrial creation brings us to...

 

SPREN: These little buggers have dazzled and confused us all for many Weepings. I'll limit myself in the OP to only discussing their physical realm aspects. They seem to follow mathematical probability patterns based on the research being done by Geranid. With these math equations she can predict their size, light intensity, oscillation patterns etc. That being said, they seem to randomly change between permitted values. They also demonstrate quantum entanglement, non-locality (spanreeds) and their nature becomes altered by measurement. We haven’t seen proof yet, but there are lots of hints that they can quantum tunnel. It sounds like Sanderson is drawing heavily on quantum theory, and spren like Syl are part of a probability waveform that has been invested with Honor. Interacting with them would satisfy the need for a waveform focus.

 

The Highstorm: Probably a large Splinter of Honor that incorporates all three types of focus. The pressure fronts are literally sound waves, and stormlight radiates out of the depths of the tempest. Given the random predictability, it is also associated with a multi-dimensional quantum probability waveform. We know splinters like to inhabit the physical focus of the planet, so that is consistent. Another fun tidbit is the way Tanavast recorded his journal in a Cosmere scale sound-byte. 

 

EDIT: i'm now thinking that only sound is the focus, and the other uses of magic all use Stormlight to bypass the focus.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Isomere

[Senor Feesh]

I think this is an excellent theory, and will be using it to inform a new theory of my own. Will credit you and link back to it when I've written it.

 

Have formulated a larger theory which incorporates this http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3294-shardic-lens-theory/'>here - thanks for the inspiration!

Edited April 21, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Thanks to ArsenoPyrite's reddit question, we do have a lot more info on how gems work in stormlight archive.

The color is, apparently, quite significant to using the proper gemstone, which is a point in favor of waveforms - but chemical composition seems to matter as well. I'm guessing that it's a little more complicated than just that, though this is getting close to something.

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gem? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements--in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron). Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Isomere]

Nahel bond = merging the knight radiant into the quantum wave function of his spren. They each get some attributes of the other, and together form a new entity.

[Windrunner]

Just as an aside, the interview I recently posted says that the Alethi language was designed to look like waveforms. So you could be on to something here.

[Morsk]

The significance attached to "symmetry" could be a pre-scientific attempt to conceptualize what's really the importance of waveforms. I wonder if certain waves are only magic in certain mediums. The cynamic plate could be producing the wave in a non-magical way, while another method of creating the wave on a geological scale is what creates Dawncities.

"Quantum" interpretations of spren don't work for me though. Spren are way too big. I can them as artistically inspired by interesting things in QM, but not actually having anything physically related to it going on. They're just too big. I'd feel better about spren if we learned that they don't show up in photographs. Then anything "quantum" would have something to do with the realms, not subatomic particles, and it wouldn't bother me.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hmm... I guess that means someone on Roshar should have Vinylvision

Edited April 22, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Isomere]

Spren are way too big.

The tiniest bits of matter have their own waveform, but when they start interacting with other objects the two waves merge and create a single more complex system. Quantum waveforms can be huge. Some of the experiments with entanglement and non-locality dealt with waves that stretch from the surface of earth out to orbiting satellites. There is no theoretical limit to how big they can get. Some of the theories even suggest that the entire Universe is one massive resonant probability wave. TES

Jumping into realmatics a bit, this could help explain why the entire wall of a prison is treated as a unit for soul stamping. By forming a single waveform, it links up the spiritweb of all the disparate parts of the wall and fuses them into one spiritual entity. That is one of the reasons I like the idea of the spren and radiants joining together into one waveform. I also think its related to the bond between a shard and its holder.

[Morsk]

The tiniest bits of matter have their own waveform, but when they start interacting with other objects the two waves merge and create a single more complex system. Quantum waveforms can be huge. Some of the experiments with entanglement and non-locality dealt with waves that stretch from the surface of earth out to orbiting satellites. There is no theoretical limit to how big they can get. Some of the theories even suggest that the entire Universe is one massive resonant probability wave. TES

I guess taking one photon, and bouncing it off a satellite, is a huge wave that reaches from the Earth to orbit. It's still so different from a spren though. It's so delicate, and measuring it even once destroys it. The information goes somewhere else, but the photon is gone.

What really bothers me is that observation and measurement are the same thing in QM, but they're two different things in spren. You can observe a spren without changing it, but measuring it and writing it down changes it. The interesting and different interpretations of QM wouldn't happen with spren. Spren are perfectly classical, until you write down a measurement, then they do something like the Copenhagen interpretation.

But for all that I dislike QM takes on spren, whatever the magical explanation for them is could still be in terms of waves and work with your theory here.

[happyman]

It's true that waveforms can be huge.  This is a subtle point in quantum mechanics, often ignored.  Technically, when we look at the world, we are looking at a quantum wavefunction which just happens to be almost perfectly deterministic and match our intuition.  (Of course, there is no actual coincidence in this.)

 

I won't say much more on the subject, because this is an area where there is still active research happening.  Long story short:  Our mathematical tools for QM work fine.  Our intuition throws a hissy fit and has to be physically dragged out of the room in a straight-jacket.  Connecting these two has proven tricky, but progress has been made.  We are not there yet, though.

I would add, though, that if you ever want a real quantum mind-bender, try multi-particle states.  They quickly disabuse you of the idea that wavefunctions are physical a-la our personal intuition.

 

However, Spren act nothing like quantum-mechanical states in detail.

[ROSHtafARian]

If this is true, then Shards, including Odium, would be unable to see waveforms, correct?  The fact that the Alethi script was designed to look like waveforms could then be an attempt to blind Odium to their communications, similar to the prophecies inscribed on metal on Scadrial and the color-dot script used by priests on Nalthis.

[Khmauv]

I really like this theory and it seems to tie many things together.

 

senor feesh's thread on shardic lens theory does seem to expand on this tying it to the rhythmic pulses given off by allomancy to the importance of color in awakening. I think their is a tie the Dor as well, there seems to be a relation between accessing the Dor and light. The Aons and the glowing elantrians being the obvious connection and Shuden glowing slightly as he performs Chayshan.  

[Isomere]

Elantris

Interesting correlation Khmauv. I hadn't really thought of the Dor, but check out this quote. This is when Raoden is reading the textbooks on AonDor theory in Elantris. Paperback version of Elantris pg 372, Chapter 28:

Some theorists describe the process [of accessing the Dor] using unfamiliar words like 'frequency' and 'pulse length'

 

This passage in the book seems to suggest that the Dor functions as a wave, and an Aon has to be created so it is compatible with the Dor's wave-properties. The Dor is NOT the physical focus though, it seems to correlate more to the Stormlight as a source of energy. 

 

Most of the magic in Sel is access through glyphs. There are two magics that seem to focus on chanting/singing though. The Dakhor monks never create the runes directly, they use sound to cause a boy's bones to grow runes. The Jesker Mysteries also use a lot of chanting in their rituals. Is there a correlation to be drawn? Both of those groups use human sacrifice, and the worshipers seem to be quite hateful. Pretty huge stretch, but I see a possible connection to Odium.

[Leuthie]

The problem with this discussion is that you can break down any experiencial phenomenon into "waveforms". Light and sound, spoken word and drawings, songs and the color of gems, jumping up down, swinging a golf club, dancing....all can be described as "waveforms".

I guess I'm trying to say that "waveforms" is too general an idea to be wrong, yet also too general to contain any real information by itself.

[Morsk]

I guess I'm trying to say that "waveforms" is too general an idea to be wrong, yet also too general to contain any real information by itself.

In addition to that, if Shards were blind to waveforms they'd be blind to everything. It seems a bit much. I think it's gems because of something in Mistborn

A Roshar gem is like a metalmind that's recharged in a Highstorm instead of time spent storing attributes. Gems do sometimes break, and in that they're a little closer to Allomancy than Feruchemy, but either way a Roshar gem is doing what metal does on Scadrial.

However! The "waveforms" thing is onto something in a cosmere sense, where sound and wave terminology has come up on every Shardworld so far. It's just not Roshar's focus. It might not be any deeper than hand-waving, with "waves" instead of "strings". I'm not expecting much from it; however good Brandon is with details, even he has to stop somewhere. But maybe we'll see something.

What would insights about "waves" be good for? If it's good for something and not just terminology, there'd have to be a way to use refraction or interference or other wave phenomena to do ... well, something.

[Shardbearer]

Well, here's something I found:

 

Josh

Is the focus for Surgebinding the Body Focuses?

Mi'chelle

Is the body the focus for Surgebinding, I think is what he meant.

[Eric's note: Well, I meant what I said, but whatever. ]

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, okay. The Physical?

Mi'chelle

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Surgebinding is... Yeah, kinda. That's a "yeah, kinda."

Mi'chelle

We'll figure it out in more detail later.

[Khmauv]

What would insights about "waves" be good for? If it's good for something and not just terminology, there'd have to be a way to use refraction or interference or other wave phenomena to do ... well, something.

This may give us some insight into the way allomancy is used on the southern continent of Scadrial. Using harmonic devices that attune to the resonant frequencies of burning metals...nah! I am stretching too far. 

[Isomere]

What would insights about "waves" be good for? If it's good for something and not just terminology, there'd have to be a way to use refraction or interference or other wave phenomena to do ... well, something.

Elantris

I think the focus may do exactly what you are discussing. We know Aons act like a gateway to the Power, so you create a pattern that only lets waves with certain attributes through. Then the relative positioning within the Aon could make interference patterns that determine the end effect.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Isomere

[Kolo]

I like the concept, but there are some problems

• First, energy takes the form of waves. Since magic is always a manipulation of energy, I don't think waveforms are limited to Surgebinding.
• Second, disregarding that, ordinary light doesn't help at all with Surgebinding. It has to be stormlight. That means that there is something supernatural about two of the waveforms. Could the sound thing be something more? 
• Also, I see no evidence of sound use in Windrunning.
• Finally, you talk about the Physical aspect of spren. They can be perceived, and have power, but they are not there physically. Shallan says, near the same sentence you used, that when she put her hand through a creationspren, it smeared, she herself felt nothing. This is further supported by some things Syl does. She changes her appearance, which is something all larger spren do, but I think it is because they have a larger Cognitive aspect. Mathematic calculation and those other things you talk about don't seem very physical to me. The only physical part, the symbols they are represented by, are nothing unless they are interpreted. Therefore, Math is Cognitive.

 

Therefore, though I think your theory has merit, it does one or two holes and could do with some extension.

[Morsk]

I thought of a way to explain the spren's strange behavior, without it being a direct QM analog. (I have a tremendous loathing of QM analogies. Yes it's bias, but whatever; sometimes bias is useful.)

Say spren have no physical presence, or so little physical presence that they really are as delicate as little particles and waves. Humans can perceive them without disturbing them -- cheating the entire thing that makes QM so weird -- because the human is not perceiving them physically at all. The spren wouldn't show up in a photograph (that's a guess), and the human isn't perceiving it through light and eyes and all that; it's a Realmatic perception.

But if a human perceives a spren, and does something physical in reaction to perceiving the spren, that indirectly has forced the spren to interact with the physical world. And that's when you get the vaguely QM-like behavior, where they're so delicate and easily affected by measurement.

It also might involve the Nahel bond, and why it has to involve people's actions. Perceiving Syl would do little or nothing. Perceiving Syl and acting more honorably because of her influence -- doing actual physical things because of Syl -- would tie Syl more into the physical world.

[Isomere]

Mistborn spoilers here:

 

I can see a way to make SOUND the focus, and just eliminate all the other waveforms from the equation. It does require one big assumption: stormlight correlates to the gas form of Honor's physical body.

 

If that is true, then what we see with stormlight on Roshar is similar to people directly burning the Mists on Scadrial. When you directly burn the body of a god you can bypass the planet's Focus altogether. (We see elend and vin do this)  Soooooo, what does that mean? It may be possible to access magic on Roshar without the use of stormlight, but would require the correct use of sound as a physical focus. There are many places where we see people do "Magical" things on Roshar without using stormlight. 

• Shallan putting memories on a page correlates quite well with copper feruchemy and doesn't use any stormlight. It DOES use sound to mimic the breathing of the people she depicts. 
• Summoning a shardblade doesn't use any stormlight, but it uses the sound of 10 heartbeats
• The thrill is suggested to give you increased strength, precision and mental acuity. It doesn't use stormlight but always comes with the rhythm of battle/contest. 
• The inexplicable coordination of the Parshendi doesn't seem to use stormlight but is magical and definitely connected to song. 
• Others?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

• Shallan putting memories on a page correlates quite well with copper feruchemy and doesn't use any stormlight. It DOES use sound to mimic the breathing of the people she depicts.

The thing is, Shallan says that she's cultivating the memories on the page.  It's a weird word to use and that makes me think it's a cultivation magic.

[Isomere]

I strongly agree with you phantom. I view Cryptics as Cultivationspren. (the entire left side of the hourglass is cultivationspren for me)