The Nature of Splinters

[ROSHtafARian]

Standard disclaimer: If someone else has already connected these dots, please link me to the thread where its discussed, because I couldn't find this conclusion anywhere but I might have missed something.

 

But something jumped out at me when looking at discussions of various splinters recently.  In hindsight, it seems really obvious, but I haven't seen any attention drawn to it yet....

 

All the splinters we've seen thus far take the form of the 'focus' component of a world's pre-existing magic system.  Breaths are a natural part of the magic native to Nalthis.  But some Breaths (the Divine Breaths) are Splinters.  Aons are a natural part of Sel's magic, but some of them, the ones at the hearts of Seons are Splinters.  Recently Brandon confirmed that spren already existed on Roshar before Honor's shattering, but after he was shattered some were different, and some new ones were created.  

 

So essentially it seems to me that when a Shard is Splintered, or Splinters themselves partially, those Splinters are a super-charged or specially endowed version of the magic that already exists due to that Shard's interaction with their Shardworld.   So if there were Splinters on Scadrial (which we know there aren't, via Word of Brandon), those Splinters would be metals of some kind.

 

So post Splintering of a Shard, some focuses are natural, pre-existing ones, like human Breaths, and some focuses are supercharged (or super Invested?) Splinters. 

 

If I'm right, that tells us a couple things.  

 

One - That spren are the focus component of magic on Roshar, rather than the Oaths, Stormlight, or anything else that might have been speculated to fill that role.  

 

Two - My first thought was that meant that spren were definitely of Honor, not Cultivation.  If some spren (but not all) were Splinters of Honor, that meant even the non-Splinter spren were his contribution to the magic of Roshar, right?  But then I realized, duh, it means exactly the opposite.  In the Reddit thread, Brandon referenced the aons at the heart of Seons AND Skaze.  There's only one focus on Sel, despite the presence of two Shards: aons.  Same as metal's the only focus on Scadrial despite two Shards.  Roshar has three Shards. If spren are the focus of Roshar's magic, then they're of Honor, Cultivation and Odium equally.  Ergo the presence of things like painspren and deathspren, which didn't make too much sense to be purely creations of Honor and/or Cultivation.

 

So 'Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren' - of course not, if some spren (ie painspren, etc) are a result of Odium's presence on Roshar.  Honorspren are the Splinters.  If Odium did ever Splinter himself the way Endowment has on Nalthis with Divine Breaths, his Splinters would be Odiumspren.  If Cultivation is Splintered, there are Cultivationspren out there as well.

 

Three - Again, I refer to the 'Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren' line.  We've been singling out the Honorspren, since they seem inherently connected to the Knights Radiant and their Surgebinding.  But if spren are truly the focus of magic on Roshar, that means all spren can be used in Roshar's magic, not just the spren that are Splinters.  Much like all aons and all breaths can be used in their worlds' respective magic systems, not just the Splinter versions of each.

 

That's why surgebinding existed before the Splintering of Honor and the creation of Honorspren.  That's why there's no sign of a sentient bond between Szeth and whatever spren might be fueling his surgebinding.  Spren don't need to be sentient to fuel surgebinding, anymore than aons need to be sentient to fuel magic in Elantris.

 

Now, my question if I'm right is - we've been told that the magic of each Shardworld has as much to do with the world itself as it does the Shard(s).  But how much of the shape a magic system takes is due to the world, and how much due to the Shards?  For instance, if Odium had left Splinters of himself on Sel for whatever reason (just a hypothetical, Brandon's already said he didn't), would those Splinters take the form of spren, or would they be a new kind of Aons?  If Endowment came to Roshar for whatever reason, and left Splinters of himself/herself, would those Splinters be Divine Breaths, or would they be Endowmentspren?

Edited March 18, 2013 by ROSHtafARian

[Chaos]

An interesting theory, but poking some holes in it: Breath are not the focus for Awakening, the Commands are. Still, I upvoted you because it is a good idea.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

An interesting theory, but poking some holes in it: Breath are not the focus for Awakening, the Commands are. Still, I upvoted you because it is a good idea.

Yeah, that's a pretty serious problem.

Not sure that Szeth even has a spren, really; there could be something even weirder going on with him.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Meg]

Szeth isn't bound to a spren:

Viper

This will probably be RAFO'd, but: Is Szeth bound to a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He's not. Haha, I didn't RAFO that.

source

Also Brandon said, that

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent.

source

Did I loose track now?

[Alatar]

An interesting theory, but poking some holes in it: Breath are not the focus for Awakening, the Commands are. Still, I upvoted you because it is a good idea.

 

Maybe Rosh is not wording correctly? I don't remember exactly how it works, but I think you need focus, energy and something else.

 

Maybe you refer to the energy? Because I believe Splinters are mainly raw energy (and possibly intent), so maybe the form that takes the energy that fuels the world magic is the form that the Splinters take into each world.

 

By the way, perhaps we saw no Splinters on Scadrial but, remember, we have seen Atium (which is Ruin's Body) and the Pool (IIRC, Ruin's Energy, meaning Spirit).

 

BS said we have seen no Splinters on Scadrial but we have seen chunks of a Shard body, Atium and Lerasium, what is the difference? Why they're not Splinters?

 

I think it's an interesting question.

[Tarontos]

Maybe Rosh is not wording correctly? I don't remember exactly how it works, but I think you need focus, energy and something else.

 

Maybe you refer to the energy? Because I believe Splinters are mainly raw energy (and possibly intent), so maybe the form that takes the energy that fuels the world magic is the form that the Splinters take into each world.

 

By the way, perhaps we saw no Splinters on Scadrial but, remember, we have seen Atium (which is Ruin's Body) and the Pool (IIRC, Ruin's Energy, meaning Spirit).

 

BS said we have seen no Splinters on Scadrial but we have seen chunks of a Shard body, Atium and Lerasium, what is the difference? Why they're not Splinters?

 

I think it's an interesting question.

Maybe to be a splinter you must have some level of sentience or intent the God metals lack these to any degree we have seen.

 

Also the god metals may just be a pressure valve meant to release excess power on Scadrial.

[NewbSombrero]

Maybe to be a splinter you must have some level of sentience or intent the God metals lack these to any degree we have seen.

 

Also the god metals may just be a pressure valve meant to release excess power on Scadrial.

 

That can't be quite right because that would make Seons and Returned themselves Splinters, and not what they hold (Divine Breath, Super Aons). I think the line of thinking in this thread is interesting, but there are definitely some assumptions in the OP, particularly regarding spren. WoB says we'll learn more about spren in WoR, so we should be able to evaluate a lot of this at that point.

[Alatar]

Maybe to be a splinter you must have some level of sentience or intent the God metals lack these to any degree we have seen.

 

Also the god metals may just be a pressure valve meant to release excess power on Scadrial.

 

There's something on it. Splinters are not just raw spiritual power.

 

Maybe Splinters are made of the three aspects of a Shard, just in a tiny measurement? But we can't be sure, because if a Shard has a Cognitive Aspect, then what happens to the mind of the Holder? And if it has a Physical Aspect, what happens to the body of th Holder?

 

Anyway, I think you're right, a Splinter must have some raw power and a part of the intent of the Shard, but it seems that they have not memories or thoughts of their own, so maybe they do have a Cognitive Aspect, and that's what holds the intent of the Shard. Only through linking with a sentient (animals or humans) they gain access to thoughts and sensations. Unlinking with people seems to unbond them of memory and thought and then they regain the memories by linking to another people (maybe through their spiritweb?).

 

It makes me think of Divine Breath. It is a confirmed Splinter but it not only doesn't gain access to memories, but it makes the person bonded to them lose theirs. Like it has reglued together the spirit and mind of the person with the body, but the glue hasn't stuck too well.

 

I've been about to erase this post a couple times but, as this is a highly conjectural thread, I'll leave it, maybe someone will brainstorm something useful on this thoughts...

[ROSHtafARian]

Gah, you're right, I forgot that Commands were the focus on Nalthis, not Breath.  I hadn't realized that Brandon had said Szeth wasn't bound to a spren.

 

Hmm.  Definitely holes then.  I do still think there's a connection between Splinters taking the form of the magic system created by a Shard, but obviously the exact nature of that connection isn't quite sound.

 

These comments do raise a different question for me however:

 

The Splinters we've definitely seen thus far are Divine Breaths, Honorspren, and the Aons at the heart of Seons and Skaze.  Of these Splinters, Honorspren and Seons and Skaze (referring to them as such for simplicity's sake, though of course its the Aons that are actually Splinters) have individual cognitive aspects.  Divine Breaths on the other hand seem to have no cognitive aspect of their own.

 

Is this distinction because Endowment, unlike Honor, Devotion and Dominion, is possibly still alive?  For instance, if Ruin and Preservation had created Splinters of themselves while still alive, would those Splinters have no cognitive aspect....versus if their Shards had been Splintered upon their deaths, would those Splinters then have a cognitive aspect?

 

Alternatively....the Divine Breaths not only bring the Returned back to life....they also give each Returned a vision of the future, and Lightsong heard Endowment's voice....so perhaps Divine Breaths DO have a cognitive aspect?

[NewbSombrero]

Gah, you're right, I forgot that Commands were the focus on Nalthis, not Breath.  I hadn't realized that Brandon had said Szeth wasn't bound to a spren.

 

Hmm.  Definitely holes then.  I do still think there's a connection between Splinters taking the form of the magic system created by a Shard, but obviously the exact nature of that connection isn't quite sound.

 

These comments do raise a different question for me however:

 

The Splinters we've definitely seen thus far are Divine Breaths, Honorspren, and the Aons at the heart of Seons and Skaze.  Of these Splinters, Honorspren and Seons and Skaze (referring to them as such for simplicity's sake, though of course its the Aons that are actually Splinters) have individual cognitive aspects.  Divine Breaths on the other hand seem to have no cognitive aspect of their own.

 

Is this distinction because Endowment, unlike Honor, Devotion and Dominion, is possibly still alive?  For instance, if Ruin and Preservation had created Splinters of themselves while still alive, would those Splinters have no cognitive aspect....versus if their Shards had been Splintered upon their deaths, would those Splinters then have a cognitive aspect?

 

Alternatively....the Divine Breaths not only bring the Returned back to life....they also give each Returned a vision of the future, and Lightsong heard Endowment's voice....so perhaps Divine Breaths DO have a cognitive aspect?

 

Just brought this up on another thread, but so far as I know, we don't actually have any confirmation about spren being Splinters. I realize this is nit-picky, but I think it's important to point out when it comes to people talking about what we definitely know.

[Leuthie]

Spren act as a focus for the raw energy that is a result of the splintering. (I'll find the relevant quotes later). I think that WoB fact shows that thinking of Splinters as physical objects is the wrong way to go. If a Shard is a Spiritual entity or collection of spiritual energy with specific intent, then splinters would be pieces of that collection. It might find entries into Cognitive and Physical via foci, such as spren. It seems to me that Stormlight might be related to this, spiritual energy being focused into physical acts.via gems or Nahel bonds, which in turn pulled the energy from High storms by some process we aren't privvy to.

There are no.Splinters on Scadrial because all Shard energy is stored various physical forms(mist, atium, wells, etc.) and put toward specific purpose. Splinters would be less controlled and have little or no purpose.

[NewbSombrero]

Spren act as a focus for the raw energy that is a result of the splintering. (I'll find the relevant quotes later). I think that WoB fact shows that thinking of Splinters as physical objects is the wrong way to go. If a Shard is a Spiritual entity or collection of spiritual energy with specific intent, then splinters would be pieces of that collection. It might find entries into Cognitive and Physical via foci, such as spren. It seems to me that Stormlight might be related to this, spiritual energy being focused into physical acts.via gems or Nahel bonds, which in turn pulled the energy from High storms by some process we aren't privvy to.

There are no.Splinters on Scadrial because all Shard energy is stored various physical forms(mist, atium, wells, etc.) and put toward specific purpose. Splinters would be less controlled and have little or no purpose.

 

I agree with you up until you get to saying Splinters would have little or no purpose because we know they can have their own intents.

[Leuthie]

The unfocused intent of Honor has no purpose

[Krelian]

The unfocused intent of Honor has no purpose

 

To oppose Odium, I'd imagine. 

 

We know from Sel that even splintered Shards still gravitate towards individuals that are in-line with their original intents. There's a reason for the Seon/Skaze split, after all (which occurred well before Elantris).

[Leuthie]

There is still a lot of unfocused Shardic Energy making Shadesmar in Sel unnavigatable. Seon and Skaze provide focus for the energy, thereby providing purpose for the intent, just as Spren do on Roshar. Has Brandon specifically said that Seon and Skaze are Splinters?

[Krelian]

We know seons are splinters. It stands to reason that skaze are too.

[Senor Feesh]

We know seons are splinters. It stands to reason that skaze are too.

 

This is a common misconception, but there's an important distinction. Seons are NOT Splinters. The Aon at the heart of a Seon is the Splinter, the not the Seon itself. (Source)

[Alatar]

This is a common misconception, but there's an important distinction. Seons are NOT Splinters. The Aon at the heart of a Seon is the Splinter, the not the Seon itself. (Source)

 

Just as Divine Breath is the Splinter, and the Returned is not the Splinter.

 

Could it be that Seons are made of Splinters joining to human souls (or maybe animals...), just like Returned are made of Splinters joining human beings? We know Returned can change their physical form (and that Breath favores mimicking the human body, why Seons wouldn't fit the form (favoring Aons), even if they were human?

 

So, going back to the topic in the OP, I agree that maybe there is something in the worlds that make the Splinters shape like the components of the magic do (Breath, Aons), although I'm not sure which kind of component this is. What are Aons and Breath to the magic systems?

 

I'd focus on this tow because they are confirmed Splinters, we haven't seen any Splinter on Scadrial and we're not sure about sprens in WoK (although I agree that probably Honorspren are Honor Splinters).

[Meg]

Could it be that Seons are made of Splinters joining to human souls (or maybe animals...), just like Returned are made of Splinters joining human beings?

This doesn't feel right for me. BS said that Splinters "have never been human."

[Leuthie]

Aons, Breaths, Metals, Stormlight...all fuels for magic on Sel, Nalthis, Scadrial, and Roshar respectively. If Aons are found in Seons and are referred to.as Splinters (the only real reference to a specific Splinter so far) wouldn't it stand to reason that a Splinter on Scadrial would take the form of a metal core in some entity; on Nalthis it would be a Breath that is some part of an entity; and on Roshar it would be Stormlight found inside... possibly chasmfiends, greatshells, which we've already seen people pull Stormlight from?

Edited March 20, 2013 by Leuthie

[FlashWrogan]

Aons, Breaths, Metals, Stormlight...all fuels for magic on Sel, Nalthis, Scadrial, and Roshar respectively. If Aons are found in Seons and are referred to.as Splinters (the only real reference to a specific Splinter so far) wouldn't it stand to reason that a Splinter on Scadrial would take the form of a metal core in some entity; on Nalthis it would be a Breath that is some part of an entity; and on Roshar it would be Stormlight found inside... possibly chasmfiends, greatshells, which we've already seen people pull Stormlight from?

I would contest Aons and Breaths being defined as fuel. Isn't the Dor the fuel on Sel with the Aons merely defining how that fuel is accessed and directed? I also swear I read somewhere that color was actually the fuel for Awakening as opposed to Breaths, but I cannot find the source anywhere.

[Leuthie]

Technically, metals aren't fuel but rather trigger access to the fuel, much like Aons are to Dor. The true fuel us Spiritual, so the physical manifestations are usually what we can point to. I think in the case of Nalthis, color is the physical manifestation and Breaths are the fuel.

Physical-->Magic/Fuel

Metal-->(Preservation/Ruin)

Aon/Forgery-->Dor

Color-->Breath

Stormlight-->(Roshar magic)

Semantics aside...

[NewbSombrero]

Just as Divine Breath is the Splinter, and the Returned is not the Splinter.

 

Could it be that Seons are made of Splinters joining to human souls (or maybe animals...), just like Returned are made of Splinters joining human beings? We know Returned can change their physical form (and that Breath favores mimicking the human body, why Seons wouldn't fit the form (favoring Aons), even if they were human?

 

So, going back to the topic in the OP, I agree that maybe there is something in the worlds that make the Splinters shape like the components of the magic do (Breath, Aons), although I'm not sure which kind of component this is. What are Aons and Breath to the magic systems?

 

I'd focus on this tow because they are confirmed Splinters, we haven't seen any Splinter on Scadrial and we're not sure about sprens in WoK (although I agree that probably Honorspren are Honor Splinters).

 

With regard to Divine Breath, Brandon has said that a Drab can't Return, which would suggest that the process of creating that Splinter involves some sort of transformation of the preexisting Breath. New thoughts forming on the topic at this moment: Breath is a for of Innate Investiture as termed by Brandon, which is to say, bit of a shard that are naturally present in people. Maybe when Innate Investiture is amplified enough, you get a Splinter. But I doubt the Aons are innate, so maybe it's any Investiture. You ramp any Investiture up enough with more of the Shard's power and you get a Splinter. We know that all the Investitures on Scadrial are very weak compared to those on other Shardworlds, which would explain the lack of Splinters. There just any Investitures that can cross that threshold. Thoughts?

Edited March 20, 2013 by NewbSombrero

[Phantom Monstrosity]

With regard to Divine Breath, Brandon has said that a Drab can't Return, which would suggest that the process of creating that Splinter involves some sort of transformation of the preexisting Breath

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-5

6. What would happen if, right after someone died, they were made into a Lifeless, and then Endowment tried to Return that person?
 

Oooh...now that's a spicy one. Endowment's gift of a superpowered Breath would come down, strike the Lifeless, and all kinds of craziness would occur. You'd end up with a drab god, which would be hilarious.

[NewbSombrero]

I fail to see the direct relevance of that quote. Someone specifically asked if a drab could Return, and he said no. That is what I am referring to.