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3 Shards, 3 Types of Blades


NewbSombrero

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So apparently my new hobby is finding theories BS has said are almost right and trying to tweak them in ways that make sense. Today's theory relates to Splinters on Roshar. In the reddit AMA, someone asked if shardblades are Splinters of Honor, and BS said that this theory is close. After seeing this, I thought about the fact that we know three Shards are present on Roshar and that there are three types of shardblades. My interpretation of these three pieces of information would be that each type of shardblade is a Splinter of a different Shard. This could explain Syl's aversion to your everyday shardblade, particularly if they are of Odium. Honorblades would pretty clearly be of Honor, leaving the third type (Szeth's maybe?) to be of Cultivation, the Cultivation possibility for Szeth's sharblade being enhanced in my mind by her theorized connection with Shinovar.

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Plausible enough. Do you have a definitive source on there being exactly three types of Blade, though? All I can think of off the top of my head is the confirmation that honorblades are a type of shardblade.

Also, there is the problem that, as far as history has told them, all the Blades and Plate that the Alethi know of were originally the property of the KR, and the KR were presumably given their Blades by Honor. So how could Honor get Odium-Blades into the hands of his men?

If they are Odium-Blades, that may indicate that the KR started giving its recruits Odium-Blades won on the field of battle, either with the recruits' knowledge or without. That could give a clue as the cause of the Recreance.

If you're in the business of tweaking theories that are along the right lines, might I suggest you take a whack at this one :D. I haven't had the proper time or state of mind to do an overhaul after TES and its revelations.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Source

3. Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?

Brandon: Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

Edited by FlashWrogan
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I can understand Honor and Odium having blades, but what would be Cultivation's motivation for creating a blade? Seemingly, that would actually be acting against its purpose.

Three different types could be meaning something like a revolver is different from a semi-auto pistol and both are different from a rifle, though all are considered guns.

There are also three distinct groups that have the blades in the first book, though so far two of the groups only have one example. Szeth has a long, thin blade, and we know his magic is unreleated to that used by Kaladin. Dalinar and his ilk have blades, but any difference between them that was more than superficial would be recognized. Shallan has a blade as well and hers is more of a dagger.

Could also be Heraldic blades, Radiant blades, and Odium blades. It could be said that the Odium blades and Radiant blades are mere copies of the original ten.

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Yeah, we have definitely not seen Shallan's shardblade, and Honourblades have been confirmed. I don't really know what business Cultivation would have for making shardblades. All I know is that we've seen three: 1) Honorblades, wielded by the Heralds; 2) your average, run of the mill shardblades, which Syl seems to hate, and the only other thing we've really seen her hating is Odium, so I'm connecting them for now, as tenuous as that connection may be; and 3) Szeth's smaller shardblade which would be taken back to Shinovar, a place many theories connect to Cultivation. As I have stated, I don't currently have a lot of ground to stand on; this is mostly just speculation. However, I feel rather confident in my interpretation of the data I currently have at my disposal. Also, I just discovered I'm not the first to suggest the Odium connection.

If Honorblades are a subset of Shardblades, maybe all the sharblades we've seen on Roshar in the present (barring, maybe Szeth's) are of Odium.

If "three of sixteen once ruled" maybe the Delosations weren't against Odium himself and what we see in the recreance is 1/3 (or 1/2) of the Knights Radiant who relied on Odium for their power abandoning their blades and plate once they found out that their god had betrayed and killed Honor.

...just an idea.

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I continue to doubt that Honorblades are the third type of Shardblade we've seen, because Kalak's narration says they "beyond even Shardblades" as opposed to the most powerful of the Shardblades.

We do know for a fact that Honorblades are a type of shardblade, though.

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My current theory is that Honorblades are simply Shardblades tied to Honor, Szeth's is tied to Cultivation, and the others we've seen thus far are tied to Odium. Given current information, it seems that Shallan's Blade is probably tied to Odium simply because that seems to have been what was available to the person she took it from, but there's still room for something strange to be going on in that Blade's backstory that ties it to a different Shard.

I've been kicking around the idea of Blades tied to other Shards too: things we've seen on other worlds that have not been called Shardblades and don't look like the Blades we've seen, but may serve an analogous function for their respective Shards.

For example, how far off the mark would it be to refer to Nightblood as an Endowmentblade?

Edited by Millennium
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For example, how far off the mark would it be to refer to Nightblood as an Endowmentblade?

That's a very interesting thought, especially since one of my friends has been suggesting that maybe Nightblood could be a predecessor to the shardblades somehow. That's a really interesting thought. Although there are some possible issue with that due to the fact that BS has stated that the theory about shardblades being Splinters of Honor is close (thus this suggestion that they're Splinters of different Shards), and that the divine Breaths of the Returned are our Splinters of Endowment. There may be some similar concepts going on, but I think Nightblood is probably something else.

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I don't agree with this theory. Honorblades are almost certainly of Honor, but typical Blades don't really seem to be of Odium, despite Syl's dislike of Dalinar's Blade. And if Szeth's Blade is the third type (which I do agree with), that doesn't really seem to be of Cultivation either. I do agree that the region of Shinovar is more likely to be of Cultivation than the surrounding regions of Roshar, but I don't think that Szeth's Shardblade exemplifies the Shin.

I was wondering about Nightblood earlier today. Does it get any permanent gains from being fed Breaths and taking Color? I assume from the Warbreaker annotations that the sequel would mainly be about Nightblood and Yesteel.

Note that Nightblood is capable of more change than Vasher assumes. Vasher has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Nightblood. He makes assumptions he wouldn’t make regarding other people or elements of Awakening. It’s hard for him to regard the sword without bias. If you want to know more about this, read the sequel. (Er, if I ever write it.) Which is tentatively named Nightblood.

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Nightblood was interesting to write in this book as he makes a very nice contrast to Vasher. Vasher doesn't want to say anything about his past; he's so tight-lipped about it that he rarely even spends any time thinking about it. Nightblood, however, dwells quite heavily on the past. Though in some ways his mind is very capable, he has the quirk of being an Awakened object. The first hours of his life, during which time he met Shashara, Denth, and Vasher, imprinted heavily on him. It's like . . . a part of his mind is hard forged in that moment with read-only memory that cannot be changed. Much of him can learn and grow, despite what Vasher says, but he cannot overwrite those initial concepts, states, and understandings that were burned into him during his birth. Shashara was alive then, so he will always think of her as alive, even if thousands of years have passed. Denth will always be pleased with him. Vasher will always be friends with the other two. Those things were some of Nightblood's first impressions.
If you’ve been paying attention, you probably realized that there was one person missing out of the Five Scholars. Vasher, Denth, Arsteel, Shashara . . . and this guy. You’ll see him in the sequel. (And yes, he’s much better at sneaking than Vasher or Vivenna.)

....

If this war were allowed to progress, Idris would be able to draw allies from across the mountains (as I mentioned earlier), and Yesteel's ability to create swords like Nightblood would end with T'Telir falling and then the entire world being cast into chaos and destruction.

So to get back a bit closer to the main topic. Nightblood is probably different from "swords like Nightblood", but they are both of Endowment. Do "swords like Nightblood" necessarily have sentience? The same or lesser destructive capacity? The same requirement of constant Breaths? So even though both things are Awakened Swords, they'll still have differences. After all, the book is (tentatively) named Nightblood, so it's more special than the others. (This is seemingly faulty logic which I think is true nonetheless.) All the Shardblades could be "of Honor" and still be different.

But writing this post has gotten me think that Hoid may have picked up Nightblood after the events of that book. Stormlight Archive is chronologically after Warbreaker. I wouldn't be surprised if he's either disguised it to look like the seemingly normal sword he's carrying in WoK, or has it stashed in his base. I still find it strange that Brandon said "You will someday know." when asked what happens if a Shardblade is used on an Awakened object. And then he went on to RAFO "What happens if Nightblood and a Shardblade hit each other?". I know that seems like a really, really dumb theory, but it's fun.

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I realize this probably isn't the most elegant logic ever, but do we really have any solid evidence against normal shardblades being of Odium? I think the Syl thing is probably the only thing we have that in any way resembles evidence of who they might be of. That may also just be me.

On the issue of Szeth's blade, I've been thinking further about how it may be of Cultivation. If I recall correctly (I don't have the book, so I can't really quote dig.), there is a comment about Szeth's blade fitting him perfectly, so to speak. I don't remember there being any such remarks about any other shardblades in the book, so this stands out to me as a pretty distinct difference that, in my humble opinion, feels Cultivation-y.

As for Nightblood, some of my friends and I have actually hypothesized, based on the same evidence Cheese Ninja mentioned above, that perhaps Vasher is with the 17th Shard. (You know, since everyone else is. We can't go leaving Nalthis out of the mix.) This would provide some of those same opportunities that BS has suggested.

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So I decided to look through at specific descriptions of shardblades and there effects. Looking at these quotes, I get a feeling that it is likely they stem from a negative power (i.e. Odium). On Scadrial we can see in hindsight that hemalurgy is a significantly darker magic system and that this fact could be interpreted as an indicator as a link to a negative Shard. Severing the soul and causing eyes to smoke, go black, and shrivel is enough to make me think many or all of them could be linked to Odium.

The quotes below are in the order they appear in the book.

His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others

the man’s eyes smoked and burned. They blackened, shriveling up in his head, and he slumped forward, dead. A Shardblade did not cut living flesh; it severed the soul itself.

an enormous Shardblade six feet long with a design along the blade like burning flames, a weapon of silvery metal that gleamed and almost seemed to glow. A weapon designed to slay dark gods, a larger counterpart to the one Szeth carried.

Oathbringer—formed in his hand, coalescing from mist, appearing as the tenth beat of his heart thudded in his chest. Six feet long from tip to hilt, the Blade would have been unwieldy in the hands of any man not wearing Shardplate. To Dalinar, it felt perfect. He’d carried Oathbringer since his youth, Bonding to it when he was twenty Weepings old. It was long and slightly curved, a handspan wide, with wavelike serrations near the hilt. It curved at the tip like a fisherman’s hook, and was wet with cold dew.

Elhokar bellowed, his Shardblade—Sunraiser—springing from mist into his hand. It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.

Sections of flesh blackened and died when the Shardblade struck.

Like a god carrying a majestic blade that should have been too big to use. It was engraved and stylized, shaped like flames in motion.

Something to consider is that Roshar is the only world where we have seen an imbalance of power between Shards. Honor is broken, but presumably both Odium and Cultivation are whole and present. Logically we would see a shift in the use and/or availability of power between Shards. If there are indeed specific shardblades associated with specific Shards, it is a logical conclusion to assume that shardblades from Honor have either been subverted by Odium, or have disappeared somehow and been replaced at least in part by Odium.

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Something to consider is that Roshar is the only world where we have seen an imbalance of power between Shards.

Maybe not to the degree of Roshar...but there has at least been one other imbalance, Ruin and Preservation. What's interesting is that Odium chose not to push that advantage and to instead leave the people of Roshar to forget.

The only thing I will add to the earlier discussion is...I think Szeth's blade is pretty much the only one that could be of Odium. Look at Syl's reaction to just hearing the name Odium. If she were surrounded by Blades that had been touched by Odium...she would be losing it.

edit: b/c I routinely screw up spelling or tagging something.

Edited by Elwynn
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The only thing I will add to the earlier discussion is...I think Szeth's blade is pretty much the only one that could be of Odium. Look at Syl's reaction to just hearing[/] the name Odium. If she were surrounded by Blades that had been touched by Odium...she would be losing it.

Except for the fact that she does have a very obviously negative view of the shardblades used by the Alethi, which she is not "surrounded by" by any means. The first time she and Kaldin come near one is Dalinar since Sadeas's camp has no shardbearers until Dalinar gives his to Sadeas. We really don't have much negative evidence there.

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Except for the fact that she does have a very obviously negative view of the shardblades used by the Alethi,

I would delete Alethi from there, but yes, I never said she doesn’t have a negative view of the Blade. I just pointed out that…

“Syl,” he said, frowning, thinking back to his strange dream. “Have you ever heard of something called Odium? I don’t mean the feeling, I mean…a person, or something called by that name.”

Syl suddenly hissed. It was a feral, disturbing sound. She zipped off his shoulder, becoming a darting streak of light, and shot up underneath the eaves of the next building.

…and…

“That thing?”

“The Shardblade.”

“What do you care about it?”

“I don’t know,” she said, wrapping her arms around herself. “It just feels wrong to me. I hate it. I’m glad he got rid of it. Makes him a better man.”

…seem like two disparate reactions. She actually seems kind of confused in the second situation. Sure, it’s a negative view. She also has a negative view and very similar confusion on Kaladin killing, which physically hurts her and causes her to leave.

which she is not "surrounded by" by any means.

Ah, ya...probably a poor choice of words. But 'surrounded by’ was referring to the Shattered Plains and all the Blades there, cause we know she goes around observing at least one other person, which is definitely outside Sadeas’ camp.

The first time she and Kaldin come near one is Dalinar since Sadeas's camp has no shardbearers until Dalinar gives his to Sadeas.

Are you referring to the ending being the first time they are around a Blade? Dalinar might have been the first she saw because of following him around, but she saw Adolin's way before the end. But I agree, she was likely way too young/not around to take note of Amaram's new toy.

We really don't have much negative evidence there.

I'm actually not sure what you mean. Do you mean Szeth's Blade?

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What I'm trying to say is that maybe the level of Odium in the shardblades is enough to get Syl unhappy with them, but not enough for the violent reaction. We still really don't know how much of a Shard a Splinter is. As far as the negative evidence, I meant evidence against the common shardblades being of Odium.

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What I'm trying to say is that maybe the level of Odium in the shardblades is enough to get Syl unhappy with them, but not enough for the violent reaction. We still really don't know how much of a Shard a Splinter is. As far as the negative evidence, I meant evidence against the common shardblades being of Odium.

Maybe Syl's aversion to the Blades has nothing to do directly with Odium. Perhaps the Blades are somewhat akin to Nightblood, feeding from their bearers. If the bearers are no longer Radiants, and not feeding the blades Stormlight, what exactly are the blades now consuming...?

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