Theory-ish: Surges as related to Spren

[Turos]

I wouldn't call this a theory as much as I would an observation and a guess based on that, but with some further observations, it may work its way to that point.

As those of you whom have read the Ars Arcanum in the Way of Kings may know, there are three Lashings associated with the Windrunner order of the Knights Radiant. It has been explained/suggested elsewhere that this order uses two Surges tied to gravity and atmospheric pressure. These are evident in the Lashings.

While the Basic and Reverse Lashings are tied to gravity, the remaining Full Lashing is based on the principles of atmospheric pressure.

A Full Lashing might seem very similar to a Basic Lashing, but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force (or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion— binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmospheric pressure.

To create a Full Lashing, a Windrunner would infuse an object with Stormlight, then press another object to it. The two objects would become bound together with an extremely powerful bond, nearly impossible to break. In fact, most materials would themselves break before the bond holding them together would.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 21311-21315). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Now what do we know about windspren? Tricky little guys, they like to mess with people sometimes, often binding objects together, or people to objects.

Windspren were devious spirits who had a penchant for staying where they weren’t wanted. He’d hoped that this one had gotten bored and left, but as Kaladin tried to toss his wooden bowl aside, he found that it stuck to his fingers.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 49). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

So windspren seem to be able to perform something similar to a Full Lashing. I wonder what other evidences we have of spren being able to mimic the ablities of the Knights Randiant, or perhaps we should think of it as the Knights who are mimicking the spren...

Now for the 'theory-ish' part. I believe Syl is indeed a windspren who has evolved further into honorspren status. My opinion is that honorspren can be made from any spren, or at least spren that are related to a surge the one they bind with is blessed with the ability to use. I am one who thinks all spren are of Honor, and that each can become a link to that Shard's power. In this case, it is technically the spren who does the surgebinding, binding the surge power to their symbiote.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Turos

[Cayden]

In Dalinar's Highstorm visions one of the Surgebinders in it mentions that not all Spren are as discerning as Honor-Spren, So I dont think its a case of spren evolving but something different.

I think its more likely that it is merely the Symbiotic Relationship between prospective Surgebinder and Spren, The spren gains something, for Honor Spren I think it is sentience and a firmer hold on their metaphysical manafestation, Syl for example gains cognitive functions the longer and more fully she interacts with Kaladin, and shortly before Kaladin begins to fully embrace the Stormlight she creates a life sized human form larger than any Spren Kaladin had ever heard of.

I think Truth-Spren must gave something different because of the relationship with Shallan, I think they feed off of the Truths given and that Binds them together, we wont find out how the Truth-Spren develop until the next book but its possible that they will become more Manafested and become a source of knowledge and help to Shallan.

Could well be that the Divine Attributes effect how you handle the Stormlight and what Surgebinding you can do more than what Spren you bond.

For Example:

1. Jes. Jezrien(Herald) Body Focus (Inhalation) Divine Attr: Protecting/Leading.... There is Kaladin in a nutshell

I Think Shallan is one of three. Personally I think it is probably #4 due to the focus on the eyes and how her memory snapshots work.

4. Vev. Vedeledev(Herald) Body Focus (The Eyes) Divine Attr: Loving/Heaing

5. Palah. Palah(Herald) Body Focus (The Hair) Divine Attr: Learned/Giving (I Think this one is closer to Jasnah)

6. Sash. Shalash(Herald)Body Focus (The Blood) Divine Attr: Creative/Honest (Navani anyone?)

With Dalinar being:

2. Nan. Nalan(Herald) Body Focus (Exhalation) Divine Attr: Just/Confident.

[makromag]

I think Shallan would fit the 4. Vev. the best, because of the body focus: She closes her eyes to capture a picture in her mind. And now that I think about it, she captures not only "a picture" but the "true" picture, enabling her to draw truthspren. Besides she can see and store something, draw it, and only then noticing details she must have seen (for she could draw them) but not noticed, as seen when she looks at the pictures she draws of Jasnah to find out she can soulcast without a fabrial. The more I read about Shallan the more I believe that her memory must be some form of magic, though not fully evolved.

[hoser]

Kaladin does some other things.

1. He can use stormlight to project his voice loudly as when he gets Adolin's attention in the climactic Tower battle.
   
2. He can use stormlight to survive a fall that should injure him as he does when he hides the armor under the bridge.
   

I believe that both of these are "non-adhesion" applications of the pressure surge.

Syl also demonstrates other abilities.

1. Syl has the ability to make an attention getting snap. I think that is her version of a pressure wave.
   
2. She frequently walks on surfaces sideways. I think that relates to her version of the lashings.
   
3. She can also communicate with Kaladin without others knowing. I think that Kaladin will gain that ability also. This communication ability is not specific to windspren as we see from Shallan and Jasnah's examples, and I think all Radiants will be able to communicate mentally as they advance.
   
4. Syl can detect large groups of people as she does when they approach the Shattered Plains. I think at least some of the Radiants will develop detection abilities. This may operate somewhat like the detection fabrial the traders use in the interlude.
   

[Cayden]

Kaladin does some other things.

1. He can use stormlight to project his voice loudly as when he gets Adolin's attention in the climactic Tower battle.
   
2. He can use stormlight to survive a fall that should injure him as he does when he hides the armor under the bridge.
   

I believe that both of these are "non-adhesion" applications of the pressure surge.

I thought the Voice was more about battlefield command skills rather than anything using Stormlight, because by that point he had used up most of it to avoid glowing.

The surviving falls is most definately a basic lashing, Szeth can do the same when he chooses to by altering his relative weight. i.e binding himself to the sky so he falls at 1/2 his weight. Kaladin cant consciously do a lot of those things but when they matter it happens naturally out of need.

Syl also demonstrates other abilities.

1. Syl has the ability to make an attention getting snap. I think that is her version of a pressure wave.
   
2. She frequently walks on surfaces sideways. I think that relates to her version of the lashings.
   
3. She can also communicate with Kaladin without others knowing. I think that Kaladin will gain that ability also. This communication ability is not specific to windspren as we see from Shallan and Jasnah's examples, and I think all Radiants will be able to communicate mentally as they advance.
   
4. Syl can detect large groups of people as she does when they approach the Shattered Plains. I think at least some of the Radiants will develop detection abilities. This may operate somewhat like the detection fabrial the traders use in the interlude.
   

I think your right on some of that, Syl does have some semblance of a physical manifestation or she wouldnt have been able to bring Kaladin those leaves so its possible that she uses similar to what you have suggested to create that splid form.

The communication is the bond they form so pretty sure you are dead on that the others will eventually be able to talk silently with his or her spren in time.

Not so sure that she detects them as much as feels them, she seems to be able to almost sense them emphatically which might explain why she struggled so much after/during the Battle of the Tower, she could sense the battle quite far away, not sure if that is the same thing. but I think the Fabrials essentially sense hostile emotions as well. Should be interesting as we learn more about things.

Very interesting points though

[Voidus]

The surviving falls is most definately a basic lashing, Szeth can do the same when he chooses to by altering his relative weight. i.e binding himself to the sky so he falls at 1/2 his weight. Kaladin cant consciously do a lot of those things but when they matter it happens naturally out of need.

Becoming weightless wouldn't help because he already had the momentum, he threw stormlight against the ground when he fell and did actually feel the impact a bit so it's not just a basic lashing.

Syl also demonstrates other abilities.

Syl has the ability to make an attention getting snap. I think that is her version of a pressure wave.

She frequently walks on surfaces sideways. I think that relates to her version of the lashings.

She can also communicate with Kaladin without others knowing. I think that Kaladin will gain that ability also. This communication ability is not specific to windspren as we see from Shallan and Jasnah's examples, and I think all Radiants will be able to communicate mentally as they advance.

Syl can detect large groups of people as she does when they approach the Shattered Plains. I think at least some of the Radiants will develop detection abilities. This may operate somewhat like the detection fabrial the traders use in the interlude.

The snap is something Kaladin mentions some Spren can do, it's not specific to Syl, since she flies most of the time anyway walking sideways isn't a particular trick either, just flying sideways.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Voidus

[hoser]

I thought the Voice was more about battlefield command skills rather than anything using Stormlight, because by that point he had used up most of it to avoid glowing.

...

I beg to differ (paperback p1170):

"Adolin Kholin!" Kaladin yelled again, feeling a little puff of Stormlight leave him, his voice booming.

He is around effectively infinite Stormlight batteries bearded and begemmed parshendi, so his power is only limited by his desire to be unobtrusive.

[Cayden]

I beg to differ (paperback p1170):

He is around effectively infinite Stormlight batteries bearded and begemmed parshendi, so his power is only limited by his desire to be unobtrusive.

His focus is holding his breath with stormlight. Every time he opens his mouth he releases it... Shouting would therefore release more out of his lungs.

But it hardly seemed otherworldly, not to mention the fact that the soldiers around him didnt exactly react like it was something louder than it should have been.

You may be right but to me it seemed more like he was actually trying to get his attention fully in the final shout, whereas before that he was worried about distracting him at a critical moment. Suppose only time will tell

[Cayden]

Becoming weightless wouldn't help because he already had the momentum, he threw stormlight against the ground when he fell and did actually feel the impact a bit so it's not just a basic lashing.

That depends I suppose on whether you think a man hitting the ground weighing 80kg will suffer as much damage as say the same man hitting the ground at 40kg or even 0kg with a 1/2 Lashing. It depends really, Physics on Roshar is an interesting thing. The fact that you can bind your mass upwards is a very tricky thing.

But more to the point. Momentum without Mass might not effect the inertia but it will definitely effect what happens when it lands

If something hits you at 5mph but only weighs 0.001KG it would be very different than If something weighed 100KG, so if a surgebinder changes their basic gravitic pull they change their mass(newtons)

[Voidus]

That depends I suppose on whether you think a man hitting the ground weighing 80kg will suffer as much damage as say the same man hitting the ground at 40kg or even 0kg with a 1/2 Lashing. It depends really, Physics on Roshar is an interesting thing. The fact that you can bind your mass upwards is a very tricky thing.

Lashings affect your weight, not your mass. I suppose if you did a full upwards Lashing you might be able to decelerate enough to land lightly, but you'd have to do that mid fall. But at this point Kaladin can't even do a Basic Lashing, and there's still that ring of Stormlight from his landing.

[Cayden]

Lashings affect your weight, not your mass. I suppose if you did a full upwards Lashing you might be able to decelerate enough to land lightly, but you'd have to do that mid fall. But at this point Kaladin can't even do a Basic Lashing, and there's still that ring of Stormlight from his landing.

I meant mass as in Netwons Laws on Mass not Mass as in Mass(weight). An example would be that of the Moon, the gravity is lower there than on Earth, on the order of 5:1 so what while their actual weight would remain the same the Newtonian Force of that weight would be substantially lower or with a 2x lashing upwards it would be 0.

The lashings effect the gravity. a 1/4 lashing pulls half your body weight upwards, a 1/2 lashing gives you virtual weightlessness.(You are naturally pulled half towards the ground and half towards the sky on Roshar.

So it would depend more upon just how much force he actually built up before he landed. it might well be uncomfortable or painful but it doesnt require any new Surge to do. Its no different to the lashings we see Szeth do repeatedly.

Including the one where he uses his shardblade to cut a hole in the floor, and lashes the stone so it has a neutral pull towards the ground, then stands on it so that it has weight pushing it down towards the ground. Under normal circumstances this would not be a pleasant experience but because the Newtonian force is so low it does not make much noise or cause Szeth to fall about on the ground as if he had just had the floor cave in and dropped atleast a dozen feet.

Szeth see's all these abilities as Windrunning and using the Lashes, so im perfectly willing to accept that its true

Edited January 22, 2013 by Cayden

[Voidus]

I meant mass as in Netwons Laws on Mass not Mass as in Mass(weight). An example would be that of the Moon, the gravity is lower there than on Earth, on the order of 5:1 so what while their actual weight would remain the same the Newtonian Force of that weight would be substantially lower or with a 2x lashing upwards it would be 0.

I know, that's why I corrected you changes in gravity affect your weight NOT your mass. On the moon you have the same mass, different weight.

So it would depend more upon just how much force he actually built up before he landed. it might well be uncomfortable or painful but it doesnt require any new Surge to do. Its no different to the lashings we see Szeth do repeatedly.

Szeth never builds huge momentum and then become weeightless, the closest I can think of is when he half lashes a table upwards and then kicks it towards some soldiers, and it clearly has an impact. Stopping gravity's effect on you won't change the momentum you already have, although you could use it to slow down. Eg. If halfway through his fall Kaladin lashed himself upwards he would have decelerated and been travelling at 0 when he hit. But he doesn't slow or stop until right when he actually hits the ground, which means he either instantly lashes himself upwards multiple times (Like 20 or so) then back downwards or he has used a separate ability and again Kaladin tried to do a Basic lashing only a few minutes before this and failed. And again doesn't explain the ring of Stormlight that hits the ground.

[Satsuoni]

I think this is not a lashing per se, as it is the effect of Stormlight inside his body. In the way similar to when it starts to leak when the body is damaged, and closes over a wound, it may work to protect him from excess pressure, dissipating his impact over a larger area (and eating a lot of stormlight in the process). Why does it work so? No idea. It may be related to pressure/atmospheric pressure.

[name_here]

I think the reverse lashing also has to do with pressure. Szeth notes that it works better on things not touching the ground, which strikes me as not making physical sense for pure gravitational redirection. Even though Cognative aspects might interfere in redirecting it, that would only seem to make sense outside of buildings. However, pressure would be more easily able to force something inward if it's surrounded by air on all sides.

[Cayden]

I know, that's why I corrected you :P/> changes in gravity affect your weight NOT your mass. On the moon you have the same mass, different weight.

Szeth never builds huge momentum and then become weeightless, the closest I can think of is when he half lashes a table upwards and then kicks it towards some soldiers, and it clearly has an impact. Stopping gravity's effect on you won't change the momentum you already have, although you could use it to slow down. Eg. If halfway through his fall Kaladin lashed himself upwards he would have decelerated and been travelling at 0 when he hit. But he doesn't slow or stop until right when he actually hits the ground, which means he either instantly lashes himself upwards multiple times (Like 20 or so) then back downwards or he has used a separate ability and again Kaladin tried to do a Basic lashing only a few minutes before this and failed. And again doesn't explain the ring of Stormlight that hits the ground.

No but the Radiants about to give up their shards drop from the sky after they had flown there instead of running, whether they accepted the fall easily because they had Shardplate is another matter, we know from Dalinar that it can absorb a lot of force.

Im still curious about the ring of stormlight, but we know that whenever he uses a lot of it his clothes start to freeze, as for him trying to activate it and run along a wall, dont really think that means he couldnt do it by instinct without realising it. He pulled arrows into the bridge for months without realising he was doing it. Could be that the stormlight protected him from it by absorbing the force for him,. Its too hard to tell without us knowing more. We do know its possible for him to survive such a fall though because he has done, whether it is a normal application of pre-displayed abilities is another matter.

[Cayden]

I think the reverse lashing also has to do with pressure. Szeth notes that it works better on things not touching the ground, which strikes me as not making physical sense for pure gravitational redirection. Even though Cognative aspects might interfere in redirecting it, that would only seem to make sense outside of buildings. However, pressure would be more easily able to force something inward if it's surrounded by air on all sides.

I thought Reverse Lashings change an objects orientation so that they are the source of gravity rather than the ground, which is why it works better on things not already touching the ground i.e arrows/spears probably birds and bugs as well, for objects already touching the ground they would be pulled by both forces, so it would require a far stronger Reverse Lashing to compensate for natural gravities pull on it.

Pressure would take a lot more mental focus though as it would need to force each individual object at it. By making the target object the focal point of Gravity, everything will be pulled towards it, but it would take far more gravitic pull to make objects bound to the ground to move to it. (Szeth pulling the stone from the wall into the door for instance, he could have pulled something else far easier but it would not have had the same effect in the battle.)

[Voidus]

as for him trying to activate it and run along a wall, dont really think that means he couldnt do it by instinct without realising it. He pulled arrows into the bridge for months without realising he was doing it.

Syl also said he wasn't ready for it and it'd be pretty complicated to use the exact right number of Lashings instinctively, too many and he'd just fly up again (Very quickly) too few and he pancakes. But I suppose it's a possibility.

[Cayden]

Syl also said he wasn't ready for it and it'd be pretty complicated to use the exact right number of Lashings instinctively, too many and he'd just fly up again (Very quickly) too few and he pancakes. But I suppose it's a possibility.

Well whatever he did was instinctive anyway, whether it was a lashing or something else it cant have been a conscious ability or he would have known about it. Up until he really embraced it almost everything was instinctive, He learned to control was the Full Lashing I believe, sticking objects together. He didnt really display much regarding the Reverse Lashing until the Battle of the Tower when he pulled the entire volley of arrows into his shield and even then that was more instinctive than deliberate.

Makes sense really though. Full Lashing is the least complicated as it requires less understanding except the knowledge of binding the objects together. Reverse Lashing is pulling items into an object he is touching. Basic Lashings however seem anything but basic, but that doesnt rule out that his body/mind might do them out of panic as they did with the others.

[name_here]

I thought Reverse Lashings change an objects orientation so that they are the source of gravity rather than the ground, which is why it works better on things not already touching the ground i.e arrows/spears probably birds and bugs as well, for objects already touching the ground they would be pulled by both forces, so it would require a far stronger Reverse Lashing to compensate for natural gravities pull on it.

GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

In all seriousness, gravity is a field force and the difference between being on the surface and a mile in the air in earthlike gravity is so minimal it's usually ignored.

Also, reverse lashings pull objects towards the affected object, while basic lashings change the direction gravity is pulling on the lashed object and work the way one would expect.

[Cayden]

GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

In all seriousness, gravity is a field force and the difference between being on the surface and a mile in the air in earthlike gravity is so minimal it's usually ignored.

Also, reverse lashings pull objects towards the affected object, while basic lashings change the direction gravity is pulling on the lashed object and work the way one would expect.

GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! In reality... This is a Novel... One that provides the basis that things outside of our understanding might be possible...

You might be right, or it might well be another of those moments when there is no scientific basis and it is a mere case of "because the author said so!"

[Turos]

So, ya. Syl is definitely NOT a windspren. I caught up in my rereading

From hearing Brandon's explanation for many things basing around "how the object views itself", my opinion on gravity and the anchor already touching the ground, it seems perhaps that the object may just consider itself, in general, part of the ground. The physics wouldn't be so much of the question as the perception of the elements in play.

I can, however, see the roof of a cavern considering itself separate from the floor of the cavern, even though it is carved from one massive rock. At the same time, both would see themselves as part of the cavern as a whole. It looks like more of a conditional thing, all tied to the cognitive direction of the objects.

[Cayden]

So, ya. Syl is definitely NOT a windspren. I caught up in my rereading :P/>/>

From hearing Brandon's explanation for many things basing around "how the object views itself", my opinion on gravity and the anchor already touching the ground, it seems perhaps that the object may just consider itself, in general, part of the ground. The physics wouldn't be so much of the question as the perception of the elements in play.

I can, however, see the roof of a cavern considering itself separate from the floor of the cavern, even though it is carved from one massive rock. At the same time, both would see themselves as part of the cavern as a whole. It looks like more of a conditional thing, all tied to the cognitive direction of the objects.

Far better explanation than mine, thanks for the confirmation. Though im still unsure as to whether this means that the Reverse Lashing pulls the objects towards it using some other force than Gravity? And if it isnt using Gravity to pull the objects towards the item which is being RL'd then it must be some other factor involved?

However if it is some other factor then why does it not work as well against objects which are directly touching the ground?

Okay been thinking about it after name_here trashed what I thought was going on.(You might well have a point but a bit more tact on both our parts might have been a bit more constructive, But I was the one who snapped back I suppose)

Could it be to do with the magnetic fields? Not everything is magnetic but this is Roshar, not Earth so it could be possible that a surgebinder could put a Full Lashing on an Object A and set its polarity to positive and then the force the otjects travelling towards it into being negatively charged. Objects touching the ground might therefore resist the attempt to change their polarity to a far greater extent than ones directly touching Roshars EM Field.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Cayden

[Turos]

Oooh, magnetism is an interesting idea for a Surge one way or the other.

[Cayden]

Oooh, magnetism is an interesting idea for a Surge one way or the other.

It makes surprising sense the more than I think about it, especially when you think that Stormlight Infused gems happen during highstorms. Storms usually contain a lot of Ionisation(not sure if thats the correct word for it or not off the top of my head to be honest.)

Gravity would work as long as it was a stronger pull than the planetary gravity, not to mention the fact that so far almost everything we've seen that type of lashing work on has already been in motion towards the intended target anyway, so its always been a more minor shift. But Magnetic attraction would make it far easier and in many ways far more discriminating than making an item a source of gravity. Not to mention taking a lot less energy.

Still very curious as to how Stormlight is harvested though, is it natural light from the Roshar's Star filtered through the highstorm, or is it from Lighting?

Too many questions, too few answers. Well at least for another 8-9 months.

[Voidus]

It makes surprising sense the more than I think about it, especially when you think that Stormlight Infused gems happen during highstorms. Storms usually contain a lot of Ionisation(not sure if thats the correct word for it or not off the top of my head to be honest.)

Gravity would work as long as it was a stronger pull than the planetary gravity, not to mention the fact that so far almost everything we've seen that type of lashing work on has already been in motion towards the intended target anyway, so its always been a more minor shift. But Magnetic attraction would make it far easier and in many ways far more discriminating than making an item a source of gravity. Not to mention taking a lot less energy.

Still very curious as to how Stormlight is harvested though, is it natural light from the Roshar's Star filtered through the highstorm, or is it from Lighting?

Too many questions, too few answers. Well at least for another 8-9 months.

Only problem is that we already know that the Windrunners use Gravity and Atmospheric pressure as their 2 Surges, magnetism might be one for another Order but it's not how the Reverse Lashing would work, I'm going with what Turos said, it's just about how Cognitive aspects all work, the way the object perceives itself.