Investiture - As a Term

[Odium's_Shard]

Now, I have just returned from a long trip through Asia, which lasted about three weeks, and out there in the mountains, where I add the weather was surprisingly, though I admit this with a hint of bitterness, warmer than current British weather, even at 200 foot altitude and the middle of a crisp spring, I have had some (a lot) of time to think about things.

And, as some of you may know, I have purposely been abstaining from reading AoL, and this is the reason why. No other books have involved me as much as those written by BS, and none at all like WoK. See the original plan was to read AoL, and save WoK (which is far bigger) as reading material for this trip. But I got too tempted. And it turns out it was a good thing, as in WoK I saw the connection between the 'worlds' and the Cosmere, and that led me here!

But obviously, in life, some things just don't go to plan, and I ended up reading AoL within two days of setting off to Asia. That gave me the rest of the trip, and the journey home, to ponder the event of AoL.

And this is the first book I have seen from BS where Investiture is specifically stated (to my knowledge), and if I remember correctly only in the Ars Arcanum, and its use led me to believe that it meant a particular thing, but coming here, I see that alot of people differ in their opinions of the meaning of 'Investiture', and as the person who writes the Ars Arcanum uses the term in a broad manner, there will always be doubt as to what it refers to until it is explicitly confirmed by WoB, and even then some will argue that it doesn't quite fit with them.

But here, I hope at least to make people re-assess their use of 'Investiture', and hopefully put in their opinions and help make revisions to the term so it can be used with complete correctness.

Now, many people seem to be confused by the fact that Feruchemically, Nicrosil can store 'Investiture', and in part it is hard to explain, and so for now this will be put away and maybe covered at the end of this post. There is always the chance that the person who writes the Ars Arcanum themselves doesn't know exactly what is meant by 'storing Investiture', or isn't accurate with the list.

So, Investiture, I propose, as a starting definition, could be pinned down as:

'The state of connection to a Shard/pool through which an act of magic/power can be committed.'

Some people seem to (in my eyes wrongly) attach Investiture to the act of magic power itself, in such a logic that every time you 'burned' a metal, or each time you went to active storage of a particular characteristic, you would be Invested. Whereas, by my logic, it feels that, by grant of the name itself, Investiture is a permanent link, or at least a temporary state, of connection between you and a Shard/pool.

For example, to get Invested, is a synonym to being introduced or involved into something. In reality, people don't reintroduce themselves to something every time they see it, but only the first time, or after a lapse in their connection.

The Ars Arcanum, I believe, also states that the metal is simply a 'gateway' by which the power is accessed, that is consumed in the act of passing on the power and selecting the particular effect that is produced in accordance to the metal's Spiritweb, and also of the permissions in the Allomancer's Spiritweb to use this particular metal, in line with my 'prismatic theory'. This means that Investiture, like I have said, is not to the metal, but rather to the pool of power in the Spiritual Realm from which the ability stems and is warped from.

Similarly in Feruchemy, the metal doesn't store your attributes itself, which is why the metalmind is not corrupted or destroyed when the metal is broken, nor (correct me if I am wrong, this has no basis) does the size of the mind matter to how much can be stored within, but instead the metal is a gateway to a specific 'locker' the the Spiritual Realm, to which you have the only key, down to your particular Spiritually genetic coding, while the metal just holds the locker in existence. In this way, things such as Inquisitor's spike can be melted down by reused in other forms when cast, as the metal as a Physical thing is just the access point by which a Physical mortal can access, with sDNA coding, this spiritual locker.

So, please discuss what you believe should be the official meaning, or at least as close as we can describe, of Investiture! All feedback very welcome!

[Windrunner]

I'm not sure why you added Shardpools into the definition, are you including the possibility of someone using the power of a Shardpool into the definition? But anyway, Investiture just seems like spiritual energy to me for one reason. In Feruchemy you store investiture by moving attributes from one metalmind to another. So what you stored originally wasn't a connection to the Shard just spiritual energy. If you are "Invested" like an Elantrian, I think you have a permanent amount of spiritual energy inside of you, and for an Elantrian it is the result of a permanent connection to the Shard. It would be interesting if Investiture was your connection to the Shard though. You could tap it and become a more powerful Mistborn.

[Odium's_Shard]

I don't think that by storing Investiture itself, you store the connection to a Shard, and so renewing it would make your Allomancy or Feruchemy stronger for a time, in the same way that for Kaladin, saying an Ideal increases his power by Honor. Otherwise, a Soulbearer Ferring on their own would be as useless as an Aluminium Gnat, and by the naming of them, it assumes that this isn't the case, thought by 'Soul'bearer, it is most likely to do with the Spiritual Realm, as the writer of the Ars Arcanum states (they say that Feruchemy has a mixture of Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual stores, though the latter are not well understood [which, on a side note, seems to imply that they in fact know of how they are used while the Terris peoples don't]).

As for Shardpool, I simply meant the place from which as Shard's power comes from, not something such as the WoA, rather just a pocket in the Spiritual Realm that the Shard can tap or is perhaps made of, and can give mortals chances to reach in certain ways (giving the different powers).

If as you say, 'Investiture' was simply a knot of Spiritual energy within a thing, then it wouldn't so manifest as to give these numbers of powers, and rather would be the pure force of a Shard, which a person (a Soulbearer, say) on their own cannot access in its pure form (though if Twinborn, a lesser strain in the form of Allomancy), and thus would have no hope of storing.

But given as Nicrosil is in the same Quadrant as Aluminium, which stores 'identity', and Duralumin stores 'connection', then one could assume that these, and maybe luck (?) could be classified as the 'Spiritual' stores. This means that, while Aluminium seems to me to have the same purpose as Determination in Electrum, Investiture must have some purpose similar to, maybe the opposite of 'luck' (if there is one), because to me, Connection to others is Duralumin, and Connection to oneself is Aluminium, which are opposing. So maybe luck affects how the world revolves around you, whereas 'Investiture' (as a store not as a term indicative of powers granted by Shards) could control how you affect the world, which seems strangely and poetically in tune with the powers granted by Shards, in that they 'affect' things.

My personal opinion on what Investiture is as a store is not your connection to the Shard, but rather 'access' to the Spiritual equivalents of the powers. So as you said, maybe humans (as pieces of Harmony) can slightly touch the world Spiritually around them, with 'luck' perhaps being when an area of energy passes through them on the Physical plane, but they brush it to Spiritually, and this ability to grasp the Spiritual things around you is 'luck', whereas the ability to touch the the Spiritual things in others, and objects, is 'Investiture' as a store.

In such a way, as you suggested, perhaps if one amassed a lot of it, you could swap stores, or access those of others, such as turning a Bloodmaker's health into useless warmth, or simply just taking it. Or perhaps it allows you not only to tap Spiritual stores in objects, but within humans too, such as not stealing it from the gold ring, but straight from the source and into a ring of your own, while the Bloodmaker hopelessly attempted to plug the gap you are leaving in his health (though I highly doubt this).

In this definition of a store of Investiture, it forms a neat Feruchemical 'internal/external' couplet with it's base metal, Chromium, and Duralumin and Aluminium already, in my opinion, form a pair. Though this doesn't seem to work in other quandrants, except, perhaps 'Weight' being an external speeding of other objects, while Steel 'Speed' is an internal acceleration.

[Satsuoni]

Well, for one thing: the size of the metalmind matters. It more or less specifically states so in the book, both for feruchemical and hemalurgic charges:

They were small, for metalminds, but storing up Feruchemical attributes took time. It would take weeks to fill even a ring’s worth of metal—and he barely had days.

A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from.

The metal specifically changes its properties, so that burning a metalmind gives a different power:

What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing.

Which only works for you if you are the same person (or stole his ability, or identity), but nevertheless.

(Hemalurgic and feruchemical charges are independent, though)

Now to the definition of Investiture (as used by author of AoL AA):

Here are his phrases using "Investiture":

On Scadrial, there are three prime manifestations of Investiture...

The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running...Note: not a catalyst then, since it is destroyed.

In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited. ...

It is instinctive and intuitive for the practitioner, as opposed to requiring a great deal of study and exactness, as one finds in the form-based Investitures of Sel...

Invest that metal on one day, withdraw the power on another day...

Though many through history have maligned it as an “evil” art, none of the Investitures are actually evil...

Plus the Nicrosil entry.

So, well, the bolded entry seems to be the basis of definition of Investiture as power, with the word invest being synonymous to "charge" or "fill", as well as the fact that "invested into something" usually (imo) mean that there is a part of you in that something, be it money or your soul.

Although... I can't really disagree with you completely, since even "storing investiture" may mean something similar to "connection" (duralumin metalminds). I just rather hope it is not so.

[EDIT] Ninja'd

Oh,BTW, if your try to classify Feruchemy by the opposites, what is the opposite of health?

Also, how do you separate 16 metals into 3 groups (physical, cognitive, spiritual)? Not to mention that there are about 38 metals (with God alloys)

Oh, and Windrunner's usage of store Investiture comes from RPG rules

Edited May 21, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Odium's_Shard]

Thanks for the confirmation about metal size, and now it makes sense to me. For example, assume the store is a ring. It would most likely only create a similar, ring sized space in the Spiritual Realm, through which you can connect to and store these attributes as raw power.

Here I am assuming that with a store, what happens is that when the (say, health) passes through the ring from the Bloodmaker, the Spiritual composition of the ring as a gateway in some way converts it into raw Spiritual power, in that it may be stored on a Spiritual level. In a way this is similar to the way in which the Enigma machines processes code. You need the right key (exactly the right key) in order to reverse the process and convert the health back from the raw power. This is where it becomes tailored to the Bloodmaker specifically. His sDNA adds the finally coding, so even if you used gold with the same composition, or better, the ring used to store the information, you would not qualify for the health as you wouldn't meet the final test (that of identity of individual).

As with your definition of 'to Invest' as a verb, and also 'Investiture' as a term to denote that you place a part of yourself, soul, calories, health, into the object (which in turn places it in this 'locker' Spiritually). However, I stuggle to see how this term works for Allomancy (with Hemalurgy, it is practically just external Feruchemy), or 'other forms of Investiture' in the Cosmere.

For Allomancy, the power doesn't come from you, and thus you cannot be the one who 'Invests'. In this way I am tempted to think that the one who Invests is the Shardholder who gives you power, whereas in Feruchemy, only you give yourself the power. But if it were the Shardholder, and you, in the different cases, it would be difficult to summarise it in a inexhaustive definition.

[Satsuoni]

Well...

I think the proper term is "Shard's investiture", rather than yours. After all, many (if not all) things that you store are due to the shard : your health, your sentience, and even the bodies of the humans were originally made by the shards.

So allomancy - the shard invests additional power to you while the metal lasts. The metal and your Spiritweb shapes it, as the Aon shapes Dor, but it is the same power, just different shape.

Feruchemy : you store part of the shard that makes you human, pushing it into the metal, changing its signature (yes, probably in the spiritual realm), essentially "Allomancy backwards", and then draw, destroying this overlay you created.

Hemalurgy - you rip out part of the person's ... well, more like connection in this case. Or, to be more precise, investiture shaped like a conduit. Ok, a little confused on this one.

Essentially, the shard has a duality of power and body/soul. Mists are the power of the shard, and the body of the shard, and its spirit (soul). Human souls are detached pieces of the shard(s), but they get refilled/recycled like other parts of the shard (since, spirit). The same energy/body may be forced into non-shardic form (health, power, pull, whatever), and will eventually recycle into a spirit form. At least IMO. Kinda hard to put that into words.

[EDIT]

That reminds me - the power of the shard seems to always go back to the same place. In case of Ruin, the expended atium went back straight to the pits, rather than to the Ruin, pieces that went into making humans stay in the humans (and maybe even grow? or get diluted by population? Strange, that part), the power (energy) used by breaths to move cloth around never exhausts breaths, etc.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Odium's_Shard]

Are you implying, by stating that a person storing calories is in fact storing the aspect of Preservation and Ruin in themselves that are shaped like calories, that a person must be of Scadrial, or at least of Harmony's get, in order to use Feruchemy, Allomancy, or Hemalurgy?

In this way, you are saying that these calories: which were from food, an external and non-Splinter source, must in this way be converted by the body first into the power of Ruin/Preservation, and so all the things that can be Feruchemically stored are, when part of a Scadrian (?) are in fact simply present as Shardic aspects?

If so, you imply that a person from Roshar (unless Shard's got together in order to create these humans too), who doesn't have these Spiritual signatures, cannot feel determination or doesn't have the health to store, simply because it is there as its external and original appearance, instead of masquerading under that of Shardic power?

If so, this simply makes no sense, for it implies that all that is about a person is part of their Spiritual connection to Harmony, and thusly, they would have no Physical substance, nor would they be able to use these calories, or this health, as it wouldn't be within their get as a mortal, Physical being?

It would make far more sense that an aspect of them, warmth, alertness, is simply 'converted' into raw Spiritual energy for storage, and this change is reversed upon drawing from the metalmind in order to convert this energy into its original source, and only the metal and Feruchemist that created the store combined can achieve this reversal.

That is unless of course, as I proposed above, stored Investiture is in fact, like luck or identity a 'state' in which one can touch and take the Spiritual aspects of others.

[Satsuoni]

Are you implying, by stating that a person storing calories is in fact storing the aspect of Preservation and Ruin in themselves that are shaped like calories, that a person must be of Scadrial, or at least of Harmony's get, in order to use Feruchemy, Allomancy, or Hemalurgy?

To use these particular disciplines, yes. Or get a transfer by some other art that will change his/her sDNA

In this way, you are saying that these calories: which were from food, an external and non-Splinter source, must in this way be converted by the body first into the power of Ruin/Preservation, and so all the things that can be Feruchemically stored are, when part of a Scadrian (?) are in fact simply present as Shardic aspects?

More precisely, they can be converted into raw shardic power and back. It is especially obvious when considering compounded health : you can cut off and eat the person's arm, and he'll regrow it, again and again, without losing body mass, while his gold lasts, by drawing energy straight from the Shard.

If so, you imply that a person from Roshar (unless Shard's got together in order to create these humans too), who doesn't have these Spiritual signatures, cannot feel determination or doesn't have the health to store, simply because it is there as its external and original appearance, instead of masquerading under that of Shardic power?

Um, no. In the end, all Shardic energy is the same (can fuel all disciplines), so human souls (who were created to mimic the creatures they (all Shards) once knew, from the book:

But Preservation . . . he wanted to create something intentionally unbalanced. Something that could choose to preserve at times, but to ruin at others. Something in the form of that which we’d seen before. It was intriguing.

) are similar. They can't store health into metal, but they can use it for themselves, and they can possibly use parts of it to fuel magic (like Awakening on Nalthis, which is like Hemalurgy in many aspects).

If so, this simply makes no sense, for it implies that all that is about a person is part of their Spiritual connection to Harmony, and thusly, they would have no Physical substance, nor would they be able to use these calories, or this health, as it wouldn't be within their get as a mortal, Physical being?

Shards are quite physical. Mists can be seen and felt, atium and Lerasium look just like metal. So it is a little hard to tell which part belongs where, i.e. what is physical part of the world and what is physical part of the shard. Also, physical body (in cosmere) is influenced by both spiritual (Hemalurgy warps) and cognitive (Soulcasting) aspects, and vice versa. Change one aspect, and other change to match. Shardic pieces may just feed the Spiritual aspect, but it changes the physical, too, even changing its mass.

It would make far more sense that an aspect of them, warmth, alertness, is simply 'converted' into raw Spiritual energy for storage, and this change is reversed upon drawing from the metalmind in order to convert this energy into its original source, and only the metal and Feruchemist that created the store combined can achieve this reversal.

Hm.. OK, this is the same thing I proposed above, so... The difference is in perception of what is part of Shard and what is not. Humans are alive because of the Spiritual part. Gravity seems to be (in cosmere) a spiritual link between objects. Object composition is related to cognitive aspect, and shard can manifest in all three realms, apparently (Dor seems to be affecting Shadesmar strongly, etc). So, for me, it is easier to think of pieces that human can transform into shard as already parts of the shard. In your interpretation, they are separate. (too sleepy to go on, sorry)

That is unless of course, as I proposed above, stored Investiture is in fact, like luck or identity a 'state' in which one can touch and take the Spiritual aspects of others.

The RPG may be a secondary canon, but it may still be used as a lower bound unless stated otherwise by Brandon. In it, Investiture is converted from other kinds of your storage, and can be used to augment the stores that you already have (doubling them, essentially, but no more, at least in the game). Also, large amounts of investiture may be used to erase the other person's stores - not tap them, just overwrite with "noise". In so far, no taking. You can use the other person's store if you killed that person and got this particular Feruchemical power from him (this was confirmed, iirc). Other methods may be possible (identity tricks).

[Telcontar]

Nice topic.

Odium, you probably know the definition I had come up with, and I think you referred to me in the original post, so here it is

Investiture is the transfer of the Power of creation/spiritual energy from Shard to subject/object of from subject to subject/object.

The result of an Investiture would then be that someone or something is Invested, if the transfer is permanent. Of course sometimes the power is lost again, returning to the Shard. For example Surgebinding, Allomancy.

Permanent Investitures would be "the" Investiture as the process of someone getting acces to magic powers or storing something with Feruchemy or for example the creation of Lifeless.

So, if I understand the definition in the OP correctly, what I see as a permanent transfer is what you see as Investiture, is that right?

As to the storing of Investiture. Even if there wouldn't be that RPG-reference, I'd say it's about storing spiritual energy. They call it Investiture, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

If you see it in accordance with the other spiritual feruchemical stuff-that-can-be-stored (connection, identity, fortune) I am under the impression, that you store part of your spiritual part - the soul. Storing connection seems to make you similar to a drab, identity is the very thing that makes you human. And luck just has no connection with physical or cognitive stuff. What is left is what you store, the spiritual energy that has been put into you by Preservation.

It has to come from yourself, as you can only store what you have. The spiritual energy is the bit Preservation put into humans to make them sentient beings. The amount is higher for Allomancers and Ferrings, very high for Mistborn and Feruchemists.

I only imagine someone storing his spiritual energy until he is not able to store anything anymore because his spiritual energy drops under the level required to store spiritual energy. That would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

Tapping the metalmind would increase your spiritual level, making you able to do much more.

Let's say someone stores enough spiritual energy until he can tap his minds. Would he then, when he lifts his spiritual level up to 100 %, be a Feruchemist for that time? A question I'd ask Brandon if I could

Did anyone understand that? I hope so.

Edit: OK, Satsuoni's explanations about how the storing of Investiture works in the RPG reveal my thoughts about it as nonsens...

Edited May 21, 2012 by Telcontar

[Odium's_Shard]

To use these particular disciplines, yes. Or get a transfer by some other art that will change his/her sDNA

But, you state that in order to use Hemalurgy, which is the only art that we know of which can transplant sDNA like you suggest, you need to be a Scadrian. Unless you simply have to be a Scadrian to have the sDNA taken from you, but a Rosharian patient could still receive it.

More precisely, they can be converted into raw shardic power and back. It is especially obvious when considering compounded health : you can cut off and eat the person's arm, and he'll regrow it, again and again, without losing body mass, while his gold lasts, by drawing energy straight from the Shard.

I was always under the assumption that Miles could regrow his body parts, regrow being the optimum word, as his abilities exceed what regrow is capable of describing, he practically engages in instantaneous regeneration, because his body 'stores' what should be present on the body at any one time, meaning that his body 'remembers' the arm it is missing when he receives the 'healing' power from his gold, and reconstructs it from the goldmind's previous notion (ie that which is present at active storage) of what Mile's body consists of. After all, regrowing an eye after being shot in it exceeds any 'healing', which deals mostly in the body with counting its losses and simply stemming blood flow.

Um, no. In the end, all Shardic energy is the same (can fuel all disciplines), so human souls (who were created to mimic the creatures they (all Shards) once knew) are similar. They can't store health into metal, but they can use it for themselves, and they can possibly use parts of it to fuel magic (like Awakening on Nalthis, which is like Hemalurgy in many aspects).

You simply imply that one must have the correct sDNA, which is usually received from Hemalurgy or being born as a Scadrian, whereas I was thinking of whether or not a Rosharian could even receive the power in the first place, or whether all powers in the Cosmere could reside in one body, as, because all systems were separately developed, there would be some overlapping issues with the layout of the Spiritweb. But then, Hemalurgy is a brutal art, it sort of just stabs the correct sDNA into whatever position it likes, and the Spiritweb just has to deal with it.

Shards are quite physical. Mists can be seen and felt, atium and Lerasium look just like metal. So it is a little hard to tell which part belongs where, i.e. what is physical part of the world and what is physical part of the shard. Also, physical body (in cosmere) is influenced by both spiritual (Hemalurgy warps) and cognitive (Soulcasting) aspects, and vice versa. Change one aspect, and other change to match. Shardic pieces may just feed the Spiritual aspect, but it changes the physical, too, even changing its mass.

I never denied that Shard's have Physical and Cognitive aspects, the Cognitive formed mostly of the Shard's Intent and the mindset of the Shardholder, I was just inferring as to why the Shard's power would appear in humans other than, say, a link to Preservation, as opposed to the entire body system of the individual. It makes sense that the change happens when one uses Feruchemy to store the substance, but it would be terribly inefficient of the body to have to 'convert' from raw Spiritual energy to useful substances each time it wished to use them, or just to pass them out, such as air or fluids. Instead it would be much easier to maintain them in their pure form, as then only Feruchemists would need to take advantage of the swapping. Also, I'm not sure that a normal body (ie, without going through the Spirit gates that lead to storage by a Feruchemist) would be able to accomplish this conversion, not to mention on such a regular basis.

Hm.. OK, this is the same thing I proposed above, so... The difference is in perception of what is part of Shard and what is not. Humans are alive because of the Spiritual part. Gravity seems to be (in cosmere) a spiritual link between objects. Object composition is related to cognitive aspect, and shard can manifest in all three realms, apparently (Dor seems to be affecting Shadesmar strongly, etc). So, for me, it is easier to think of pieces that human can transform into shard as already parts of the shard. In your interpretation, they are separate. (too sleepy to go on, sorry)

So everything about the human, everything, his shape, presence, Cognitivity, Physicality, and Spirituality, are all just formed of Shardic power. It makes sense in one way, after all, the Shards are just Splinters of Adonalsium, who must've, at one point, made these things, but then in the other, humans have created objects and increased mass and created new life and children that cannot be directly attributed to Shard that created the original breeding couple.

The RPG may be a secondary canon, but it may still be used as a lower bound unless stated otherwise by Brandon. In it, Investiture is converted from other kinds of your storage, and can be used to augment the stores that you already have (doubling them, essentially, but no more, at least in the game). Also, large amounts of investiture may be used to erase the other person's stores - not tap them, just overwrite with "noise". In so far, no taking. You can use the other person's store if you killed that person and got this particular Feruchemical power from him (this was confirmed, iirc). Other methods may be possible (identity tricks).

This makes sense, after all, if you stole his sDNA with Hemalurgy, then you should have his exact coding point with which to access his Feruchemical power, meaning that the personal code that meant that only you can open the Spiritual locker is now held (exactly) by you, a copy of the original person, meaning that while you aren't the creator of the locker, you still have the key.

*Bold sections my response. Can someone also tell me how to use this 'Multi-Quote' thing, as I can't get a handle on it and it would be incredibly useful to be able to use whatever you do to separate the posts into idividual quotes, each maintaining 'user' and 'timestamp'. Thanks in advance.

[Odium's_Shard]

Nice topic.

Odium, you probably know the definition I had come up with, and I think you referred to me in the original post, so here it is

Investiture is the transfer of the Power of creation/spiritual energy from Shard to subject/object of from subject to subject/object.

The result of an Investiture would then be that someone or something is Invested, if the transfer is permanent. Of course sometimes the power is lost again, returning to the Shard. For example Surgebinding, Allomancy.

Permanent Investitures would be "the" Investiture as the process of someone getting acces to magic powers or storing something with Feruchemy or for example the creation of Lifeless.

So, if I understand the definition in the OP correctly, what I see as a permanent transfer is what you see as Investiture, is that right?

As to the storing of Investiture. Even if there wouldn't be that RPG-reference, I'd say it's about storing spiritual energy. They call it Investiture, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

If you see it in accordance with the other spiritual feruchemical stuff-that-can-be-stored (connection, identity, fortune) I am under the impression, that you store part of your spiritual part - the soul. Storing connection seems to make you similar to a drab, identity is the very thing that makes you human. And luck just has no connection with physical or cognitive stuff. What is left is what you store, the spiritual energy that has been put into you by Preservation.

It has to come from yourself, as you can only store what you have. The spiritual energy is the bit Preservation put into humans to make them sentient beings. The amount is higher for Allomancers and Ferrings, very high for Mistborn and Feruchemists.

I only imagine someone storing his spiritual energy until he is not able to store anything anymore because his spiritual energy drops under the level required to store spiritual energy. That would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

Tapping the metalmind would increase your spiritual level, making you able to do much more.

Let's say someone stores enough spiritual energy until he can tap his minds. Would he then, when he lifts his spiritual level up to 100 %, be a Feruchemist for that time? A question I'd ask Brandon if I could

Did anyone understand that? I hope so.

Edit: OK, Satsuoni's explanations about how the storing of Investiture works in the RPG reveal my thoughts about it as nonsens...

Sorry for the double post, but the last post was so long already, and Telcontar ninja'd me with his sneaky post. However, me and Telcontar agree with the basics, except there are a few things I'd like to straighten out within your post.

First, the definition. Yours and mine are almost the same (the one displayed in the OP), except for the minor fact that you feel that is the act of the power being transferred, rather than my opinion that it's about the existence of the connection that allows the transferal of power in the first place. For examply if you 'Invest' an object, you haven't just given that object the temporary burst of power it needs to do something.

In storage, for example, you Invest it once during active storage, but the connection between you and the Spiritual pocket full of, say, health, through the, say, ring, is maintained until you remove the entire contents of that pocket. This mean that when something is 'Invested', it maintains a connection to the original power source until all power is revoked, meaning that Investiture is always permanent (until of course the object is wiped from existence or dies), and that it is the process of the connection rather than that of the power flowing down it.

I'll explain why I feel that all Investiture is permanent. In Allomancy, some may argue that you only access the power from the metals for as long as you burn it, and so once the metal is consumed, or you cease to burn it any more, the Investiture stops, and so is temporary. However, I say to those people, that you're looking at it wrong. It's not that the metal is Investing you, for the metal holds no power, and so both me and Telcontar's definitions, the metal cannot be Investing you. Its that you have a connection to Preservation (presuming that he powers Allomancy) that the metal recognizes, and allows power to be funneled through the connection. In this way, even while you have no metals, no access points, the connection is maintain from the time at which you Snap, to the time that you die. If you haven't any metals, your connection to Preservation, as an Allomancer, isn't nullified, it is just unavailable. It's not that the connection doesn't exist any longer, just that power isn't being pulled down it.

Secondly, Telcontar believes, like I do, that the verb 'to be Invested', or an 'act of Investiture' is different from the Feruchemical aspect that can be stored during Nicrosil. If you tried to convey that they were the same, it would be impossible to store 'the connection between a power source and the Invested object', just as it impossible to store a feeling between two specific things, rather than the feeling itself, ie, one can store sight, but not the act of seeing a certain object.

Lastly, as to your last question, Telcontar, I don't believe it would make you full Feruchemist, because I'm not under the idea that storing Investiture is storing Feruchmeical or Allomantic strength, but is something to do with how one operates around power sources, or the Spiritual plane itself.

[Telcontar]

I'll explain why I feel that all Investiture is permanent. In Allomancy, some may argue that you only access the power from the metals for as long as you burn it, and so once the metal is consumed, or you cease to burn it any more, the Investiture stops, and so is temporary. However, I say to those people, that you're looking at it wrong. It's not that the metal is Investing you, for the metal holds no power, and so both me and Telcontar's definitions, the metal cannot be Investing you. Its that you have a connection to Preservation (presuming that he powers Allomancy) that the metal recognizes, and allows power to be funneled through the connection. In this way, even while you have no metals, no access points, the connection is maintain from the time at which you Snap, to the time that you die. If you haven't any metals, your connection to Preservation, as an Allomancer, isn't nullified, it is just unavailable. It's not that the connection doesn't exist any longer, just that power isn't being pulled down it.

You might also remember my former distinction between Primary and Secondary Investiture. Primary was the transfer of Power from Shard to human establishing the constant connection to the Shard in question which makes one able to use magic. So yes, basically we are saying the same thing, but I didn't get it before...

Secondary was the actual use of the Power to create a magical effect, which is not different from bringing the connection to produce an effet, is it?

My thought of a Secondary Connection was mainly based on the AoL Ars Arcanum quote:

The metal is a catalyst [...] that begins an Investiture and keeps it running

I'll agree with you, when you say, that terminology might just as well be what the author of the Ars Arcanum made of it. But that made me differentiate between the Investitures that establish the connection and others that only use that connection, thus forming my definition as a transfer of Power.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Telcontar

[Odium's_Shard]

No, the use of the connection resembles the exact same instance in which it was formed in the first place.

Snapping would, using your terminology, be the Primary Investiture (though I have to disagree with the term, seeing as we just came to the agreement that Investiture is unto itself the two combined, in a different way than having them separately labelled together) while burning the metal would be the Secondary, though the two instances are both directly descended from an innate connection to the Power.

So, a new definition of Investiture is inevitable:

Investiture is the act of possessing a permanent, though revocable, connection to an aspect of the Power of Adonalsium

Following this, 'acts of magic' would be the term I would use to describe powers that stem from your connection to this Power, instead of 'Secondary Investiture', though, in a way, your term makes sense to, in that 'acts of magic' are the use of Investiture, but do not come under it themselves. There may also be other uses.

I hypothesise that the act of Feruchemically storing Investiture refers to storing the act of magic itself, as a byproduct of Investiture, as well as other byproducts, but not the act of the connection in itself. For example, you could store the twisted power of the Shard, meaning that, while Satsuoni believed it would store raw Spiritual power, which it would be naturally impossible for a Soulbearer to possess due to his limitations as a mortal, if he committed the act of Coinshotting, or the power received from Preservation through Steel, then he could store this warped power in his nicrosilmind. A mind would be needed for each Allomantic power.

But in accordance with the laws of Feruchemy being end-neutral, it would be silly if it stored skill with Allomancy, and so if he tapped his stores, he wouldn't be any stronger at Steelpushing than if he simply burned Steel. That's the point. It doesn't store Allomantic power, as that would be able to compound with the simply use of Allomancy. Rather, it stores the byproduct of Investiture, the act of magic, or the power that induces it in a mortal, itself, for use at a later date. Meaning, say he had no steel, he could use his reserves of Steelpushing to have access to it that he had previously stored during active storage. During active storage, he would have to burn Steel, but then receive no effect from it. During active transfer, he would have access to Steel's power without the need for Allomancy. In essence, his use of Allomancy has simply been moved through time. Although, obviously, to use this power, one would have to have access to other Allomantic abilities, meaning that a Soulbearer Ferring is essentially a Gnat of their own, unless they were Twinborn or Keeper/Mistborn.

The only perceivable way, using my logic (in which I feel makes sense, and is my official proposition, and may yet make its own thread as to the storage of Investiture as opposed to its use as a term), to increase your Allomantic abilities using the storing of Investiture would be, say, you were Keeper/Mistborn. You store the act of Steelpushing for a time, then consume the Nicrosil, and burn it, and you have Compounded Steelpushing, which means you might be as powerful as a Lerasium Mistborn, but only at Steelpushing, and only for the duration of the Nicrosil burning. If you were a Mistborn/Keeper it would be more efficient to use Duralumin, but this lengthier way appears to give a lasting Duralumin-esque effect.

That's how I see it.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think that, in a sense, this might be the point of Investiture as a storage. Powerful for Mistborn, not so much for everyone else. After all, if Allomancy has some powers that are, singularly, useless, then surely Feruchemy must have some 'holes' too, lest it be overpowered if a Feruchemist (full) came along and could suddenly increase his power exponentially using increased power!

You mention that Soulbearing is being 'studied', however it is also mentioned in the AA that the Terris peoples don't know what they're doing when they employ this power. Which one might assume could mean that they don't know if it is working or not, or if they are using it correctly. I still feel it is appropriate to have one 'Gnat' in a Metallic Art. After all, Allomancy has Duralumin and Aluminium, and Hemalurgy has decay and the law of constructs (easily corrupted by Emotional Allomancy).

One thing does bug me about the twisted power of Allomancy being the storage for 'Investiture'. It seems that all other Feruchemical storages can be stored whenever the user wishes. One always have weight to be stored, and speed, and warmth, and wakefulness, but it is not constantly that the connection to Preservation is being employed, or that one is burning a metal. I may come up with revisions to my idea based around this point.

[Satsuoni]

Well, I'll still hold to my idea (I think you read my original post), that investiture drawn in its raw form is like mists for Vin - they power those powers you have, at first, favoring the stronger or better accentuated ones, then they give you lesser powers, but at the cost of essentially ripping holes in your Spiritweb, possibly causing irreversible damage, and then you go boom, and hope sazed won't mind taking care of your bodyless self.

Also, I think the name comes from their ability to store their souls, i.e. that part of preservation that makes humans (on Scadrial) sentient, becoming .well..not sure... more like animals? Like lifeless? for a while, and gaining almost every attribute, but just a little, when drawing it back.

[Telcontar]

P.S. I7ll remove post if you think it to be inappropriate. Please tell me.

Don't you dare!

@Odium

I have problems with the wording 'the act of possessing'. Might be I'm no native speaker, but possessing is rather a state than an act, isn't it?

Investiture as a word seems to me to be an action. There has to be someone who invests. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Yet, that does not mean, that I disagree entirely with you. I see the importance of the state of possessing the connection. Also Brandon has said that Investiture happens through genetics (allomancy and feruchemy), the Shaod (AonDor) or what you do (Surgebinding). There is an event that gets you Invested. That event would be the Investiture.

And, about snapping. I've always had problems with that. Because of what Brandon said. Investiture would happen through genetics on Scadrial. So the potential (the spirit-level) is already high enough, you are Invested, the snapping only gets you access to use the Power, permitting acts of magic. Though, I'm really no Mistborn-expert.

Once more, we seem to agree on most of what we say, but disagree on some slight parts

[Odium's_Shard]

Well, I'll still hold to my idea (I think you read my original post), that investiture drawn in its raw form is like mists for Vin - they power those powers you have, at first, favoring the stronger or better accentuated ones, then they give you lesser powers, but at the cost of essentially ripping holes in your Spiritweb, possibly causing irreversible damage, and then you go boom, and hope sazed won't mind taking care of your bodyless self.

Also, I think the name comes from their ability to store their souls, i.e. that part of preservation that makes humans (on Scadrial) sentient, becoming .well..not sure... more like animals? Like lifeless? for a while, and gaining almost every attribute, but just a little, when drawing it back.

See, the hard thing is, I like the sound of your power. It is a neat power to have, with appropriate risks and 'pitfalls' in it, just the same as mine saying that there must be Gnats. However, no matter how cool it is, I must argue that it is both slightly overpowered and also doesn't follow the logic of Feruchemy: you get out what you put in. Pure and simple. If you store five days of health, there will be five days worth in the ring. Not six, not four. In the same way, one would assume that no matter how much 'raw Spirituality' that you put into the nicrosilmind, you'd only get the raw power out. And on its own, it can't effectuate any magic on the Planes, except maybe the Spiritual. And because a Feruchemist is a Physical entity, it can't use this Spiritual-tailored energy in the same way s a Shard doesn't use Allomancy, because it is Allomancy.

Do you see my problem with it? Also, in regards to my views on Investiture storage, I'm the first to admit there are problems with it, and the potential uselessness of it is one. But on its own, your power too wouldn't effectuate anything, because the only power you have to 'sharpen' with the Spiritual energy (presuming you can do anything of the kind with it at all) is your ability to store the Spiritual energy you are using to increase your powers anyway. It's impossible to tap and store at the same time, and even if it was, it would nullify out.

EDIT: Ninja'd. I will wait for your second post and reply to them both one after the other.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Telcontar]

Also, I think the name comes from their ability to store their souls, i.e. that part of preservation that makes humans (on Scadrial) sentient, becoming .well..not sure... more like animals? Like lifeless? for a while, and gaining almost every attribute, but just a little, when drawing it back.

Sorry for the double post, you ninja'd me.

That's what I thought before you explained about the RPG... see post #9.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Telcontar

[Odium's_Shard]

Don't you dare!

@Odium

I have problems with the wording 'the act of possessing'. Might be I'm no native speaker, but possessing is rather a state than an act, isn't it?

Investiture as a word seems to me to be an action. There has to be someone who invests. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Yet, that does not mean, that I disagree entirely with you. I see the importance of the state of possessing the connection. Also Brandon has said that Investiture happens through genetics (allomancy and feruchemy), the Shaod (AonDor) or what you do (Surgebinding). There is an event that gets you Invested. That event would be the Investiture.

And, about snapping. I've always had problems with that. Because of what Brandon said. Investiture would happen through genetics on Scadrial. So the potential (the spirit-level) is already high enough, you are Invested, the snapping only gets you access to use the Power, permitting acts of magic. Though, I'm really no Mistborn-expert.

Once more, we seem to agree on most of what we say, but disagree on some slight parts

It does seem indeed. I too am unsure whether or not it is possible to be in the act of possessing a connection, but while 'possession' is a state, ie, in the state of possession of a connection, I feel that 'possessing' is an action, and thusly must be acted out. Does that make sense? I myself am unsure.

Along the lines of verb confusion, I completely agree with you that 'Investiture' as in the broad term, as given by my definition, imply a state of action, in that 'Investiture' is the state of 'Investing', in much the same way as I believe 'Possession' being the the state of 'Possessing', and when you 'preserve' something, you have carried out 'Preservation'.

I agree with your post in entirety, save for the wording of the definition, which can always be altered, if you believe, as I do that the storage of 'Investiture' must separate the verb of Investing to an actual object, a noun, that it is possible to coalesce. In simplicity, I believe that the storage of Investiture is differentiated from the action of possession of a connection as defined by 'Investiture' as a whole, due to the fact that when stored, Investiture becomes a 'thing' as opposed to an 'action'.

[Satsuoni]

To: Odium:

Well, a few small points (that I think are related to your problem):

1. Health does not give out exactly what was stored, since you generally store just immune response (unless you are wounded), but can get out a regrown limb (mass gain). So this particular power becomes generic, and then routes to the places of the most need (I am not sure if Feruchemist can choose the wound to be healed).

2. Raw power of the Shard is not constrained to Allomancy or Feruchemy, but can power any magic system, or just change reality, as Rashek did (moved a planet, made volcanoes, rewritten population genotype, etc). Allomancy is a form the raw power of the Shard takes when filtered through metal and human soul. But the input is still raw power.

Therefore, I think Investiture works like health : it can be stored from any of the sources you have (Feruchemy tap, like in the game - the game is, of course, limited due to balance issues), Allomancy burn, or just your soul, and becomes raw Investiture.

When drawn, it routes, like the health does, to the best available outlets, until the pressure starts breaking you down, since the power is not pre-filtered like in Allomancy and Feruchemy, and your body (and soul) cannot take it. If filtered through Allomancy conduit -you get allomancy. If you are already burning -even better, and most power is drawn there. If you are just a human, then part of the power goes back (creating additional resistance to tap), and part goes into your soul making you generally better, a bit stronger, as if you get a Human strength spike, a bit smarter and more stable, with sharper senses, but all of it, and not very much.

The problem is, this is just my hope - there is simply not enough data to be certain. With the available data, your definition is also valid,as far as I can tell.

[EDIT] @Telcontar:

What? OK, I'll leave it be.

P.S. I am not sure if anyone has explained it to you already, Odium, but to split a quote like that I just push the "reply" button, and then copy [ quote post=smth time=smth ] line before each part that I want, and add a closing segment afterwards. [ /quote]

Edited May 22, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Odium's_Shard]

I see what you're saying I really do. I just think it is unrealistic, though, I will not rule it out, as some might consider mine to be also. I just feel that if it was this simple to name, they would have just said that Nicrosil 'stores Spiritual Energy', whereas by saying it store Investiture, they are trying to sum up alot of uses in a single word.

But, in regards to your power, I understand what you're saying and I will, conversely, try to add to your views (though my personal opinion still holds at this given moment).

Firstly, what I will dub The Law of Energy Diffusion, long for LED, is your first point. You state that energy that is leaked into the body in innumerable forms works in the same way as water content in a tree: where the energy is spilling from draws this excess energy to plug the hole. Blood works this way, so that when you cut yourself, the clot is immediate.

However, there are only a handful of instances in Feruchemical storage that this seems to apply to. Speed, for example, is a universal force, and thus it doesn't seem possible to control the individual speeds, of your limbs, but then it the same way, it is impossible for one limb to be, in contrast to full bodily speed, any faster than the other. In health, I have already explained that the 'healing' that a Bloodmaker stores cannot possibly be anything resembling immune response. It might seem this way because when they store, they get sick easily, but when they draw, it resembles more of a regenerative wave, being capable of copying destroyed limbs, which exceeds mere 'healing'. And thus, I'll bet that the healing force happens in every area of the body at the same time, meaning that while it seems specific areas are targeted, in fact all areas are being 'healed' its just the effect is only noticeable in areas that indeed require healing.

Secondly, I get what you're saying about the use of Spiritual energy to power Allomancy. The problem is, if you're an Allomancer, and the metal and your sDNA is all that is required to reform this 'Spiritual energy' into the power of, say, Copper, then why not just burn the copper? Presumably, this conversion cannot take place if the metal (and its Spiritual signature) aren't present, and thus, you might as well just use Preservation's power as opposed to your own, as it is probable that when this power is expended in the Coppercloud, it is irretrievable, and so you have just burned away part of your soul.

Next, about the use of this Spiritual energy to power or enhance Allomantic power that is already flowing through the metal. However, if my logic was correct, you have already stated that for the above paragraph's power to happen in the first place, it must be converted through you and the metal, however when Preservation's power is already flowing through the metal to the brim (there is a limit to how must can be Pulled through at once, hence Allomancy's limitations), then how could you possibly add your Spiritual energy to enhance the flow, when it will just have to wait in line just like Preservation's.

However, there is one potential use that I can see forming from storing raw Spiritual energy. But presumably, to make use of the nicrosil's power in the first place, you are most likely a Mistborn, or at least a Twinborn, and if I'm correct and by storing the Allomantic power that stem's from Allomancy is possible, then, firstly, you can stop an Allomancer from accessing Preservation's store (maybe unlikely), or at the very least not only take in pure Spiritual energy but the Allomantic energy too, as I suggested, such as the power of Steelpushing or Copperclouding. But, if this is that case, and you're a Mistborn, then why no just burn the nicrosil to produce the same effect, and shock others with an external Duralumin effect?

EDIT: Thanks for the tip Satsuoni! Should make it easier.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Satsuoni]

I see what you're saying I really do. I just think it is unrealistic, though, I will not rule it out, as some might consider mine to be also. I just feel that if it was this simple to name, they would have just said that Nicrosil 'stores Spiritual Energy', whereas by saying it store Investiture, they are trying to sum up alot of uses in a single word.

Probably not just spiritual - Investiture seems like an energy that can be expressed in all three Realms, sometimes at the same time.

But, in regards to your power, I understand what you're saying and I will, conversely, try to add to your views (though my personal opinion still holds at this given moment).

Firstly, what I will dub The Law of Energy Diffusion, long for LED, is your first point. You state that energy that is leaked into the body in innumerable forms works in the same way as water content in a tree: where the energy is spilling from draws this excess energy to plug the hole. Blood works this way, so that when you cut yourself, the clot is immediate.

However, there are only a handful of instances in Feruchemical storage that this seems to apply to. Speed, for example, is a universal force, and thus it doesn't seem possible to control the individual speeds, of your limbs, but then it the same way, it is impossible for one limb to be, in contrast to full bodily speed, any faster than the other. In health, I have already explained that the 'healing' that a Bloodmaker stores cannot possibly be anything resembling immune response. It might seem this way because when they store, they get sick easily, but when they draw, it resembles more of a regenerative wave, being capable of copying destroyed limbs, which exceeds mere 'healing'. And thus, I'll bet that the healing force happens in every area of the body at the same time, meaning that while it seems specific areas are targeted, in fact all areas are being 'healed' its just the effect is only noticeable in areas that indeed require healing.

Maybe. I think healing energy is directed by body, with preference for damaged area, just as speed may be constrained to a single arm, if the remains of your body are very still (you still expend additional energy, though)

Secondly, I get what you're saying about the use of Spiritual energy to power Allomancy. The problem is, if you're an Allomancer, and the metal and your sDNA is all that is required to reform this 'Spiritual energy' into the power of, say, Copper, then why not just burn the copper? Presumably, this conversion cannot take place if the metal (and its Spiritual signature) aren't present, and thus, you might as well just use Preservation's power as opposed to your own, as it is probable that when this power is expended in the Coppercloud, it is irretrievable, and so you have just burned away part of your soul.

Not sure if the metal is absolutely necessary - see Vin and the mists, which I presume to be nearly raw Investiture when "burned". She just got most of the powers she would have is she had metals, but without. Also, I think the power will regenerate... in a while.

Next, about the use of this Spiritual energy to power or enhance Allomantic power that is already flowing through the metal. However, if my logic was correct, you have already stated that for the above paragraph's power to happen in the first place, it must be converted through you and the metal, however when Preservation's power is already flowing through the metal to the brim (there is a limit to how must can be Pulled through at once, hence Allomancy's limitations), then how could you possibly add your Spiritual energy to enhance the flow, when it will just have to wait in line just like Preservation's.

Like duralumin, which, btw, I assume as something that pushes on the flow of Investiture through metal, increasing its "pressure" and giving you the boost (and a sped up consumption), but maybe without a sped up consumption (and not nearly that much boost). Standard rate of burning is not nearly the absolute maximum, probably just your "pressure differential" with Preservation.

However, there is one potential use that I can see forming from storing raw Spiritual energy. But presumably, to make use of the nicrosil's power in the first place, you are most likely a Mistborn, or at least a Twinborn, and if I'm correct and by storing the Allomantic power that stem's from Allomancy is possible, then, firstly, you can stop an Allomancer from accessing Preservation's store (maybe unlikely), or at the very least not only take in pure Spiritual energy but the Allomantic energy too, as I suggested, such as the power of Steelpushing or Copperclouding. But, if this is that case, and you're a Mistborn, then why no just burn the nicrosil to produce the same effect, and shock others with an external Duralumin effect?

Heh.. If that is possible, I'd like to see a steelpush generated from a few tons of steel released in one second (Although that will kill the poor misting quite dead, I'd say)

As mentioned before, it is how I originally thought it'd work, before the game was out.

(Also, pewter gives you Strength, Speed, Agility, Density and increased healing rate Tap a few kilos of that in a second )

[Telcontar]

@Telcontar:

What? OK, I'll leave it be.

I'm a big fan of art And I think you presented it quite right. You could of course give us the meaning of the red, blue and green, black and grey lines. the way I see it, the first would be physical, cognitive and spiritual parts of a human, what's black? and grey?

It does seem indeed. I too am unsure whether or not it is possible to be in the act of possessing a connection, but while 'possession' is a state, ie, in the state of possession of a connection, I feel that 'possessing' is an action, and thusly must be acted out. Does that make sense? I myself am unsure.

Along the lines of verb confusion, I completely agree with you that 'Investiture' as in the broad term, as given by my definition, imply a state of action, in that 'Investiture' is the state of 'Investing', in much the same way as I believe 'Possession' being the the state of 'Possessing', and when you 'preserve' something, you have carried out 'Preservation'.

I agree with your post in entirety, save for the wording of the definition, which can always be altered, if you believe, as I do that the storage of 'Investiture' must separate the verb of Investing to an actual object, a noun, that it is possible to coalesce. In simplicity, I believe that the storage of Investiture is differentiated from the action of possession of a connection as defined by 'Investiture' as a whole, due to the fact that when stored, Investiture becomes a 'thing' as opposed to an 'action'.

Well, one result of my studies is that sometimes I put a lot of (or too much) attention to the exact meaning of words. To possess something describes the relation between a person and an object (or another person, since we talk about fantasy and thus slavery isn't that abolished yet). An action, as in opposition to 'omission' would require that you actually do something. There is something happening when there is action.

Of course it might be that there is always a flow of Power between Invested person and Shard, but I'd rather say, that once someone got Invested, the connection is established, and that no more action is required to keep it intact.

State is a (more or less) stable situation, while action is change. A state of action does not make sense to me, personnally.

Does this help?

Sorry, I don't think I understand your last paragraph. I agree however, that, when 'Investiture' is stored (whatever that is, I'll leave that to Satsuoni and you) it is not the same as the definition we are trying to work out together.

When I say Investiture is transfer (thus an action), then I don't see how that can be stored. Anyway, I am probably with Satsuoni on what you store when storing Investiture (spiritual energy) so I don't really have a problem with the difference between our definition and what one stores.

[Satsuoni]

I'm a big fan of art And I think you presented it quite right. You could of course give us the meaning of the red, blue and green, black and grey lines. the way I see it, the first would be physical, cognitive and spiritual parts of a human, what's black? and grey?

Red blue and green are symbolic, but in general, yes, three realms. The energy in these arcs is used, among other things, for physical interaction, senses, spiritual stuff, etc., through the coupling with the corresponding arcs of other objects. The energy is then "made use of" (tHoA:

They didn’t use up this power, however, but simply made use of it. Once a nugget of atium was expended, the power would return to the Pits and begin to coalesce again—just as the power at the Well of Ascension would return there again after it had been used.

This used-up energy is black part of the cycle. It also includes purely physical energy recovery (eating).

Grey arrows are "unused pathways", paths that energy could take, but does not. A little confusingly, they are also part of the cycle, but mainly internalized part (no outside cycle).

When Feruchemy and Allomancy are used, they are filled.

The Shardic cycle also include branchings like that, but they are omitted for clarity.

[Odium's_Shard]

Well, one result of my studies is that sometimes I put a lot of (or too much) attention to the exact meaning of words. To possess something describes the relation between a person and an object (or another person, since we talk about fantasy and thus slavery isn't that abolished yet). An action, as in opposition to 'omission' would require that you actually do something. There is something happening when there is action.

Of course it might be that there is always a flow of Power between Invested person and Shard, but I'd rather say, that once someone got Invested, the connection is established, and that no more action is required to keep it intact.

State is a (more or less) stable situation, while action is change. A state of action does not make sense to me, personnally.

Does this help?

This. You got it in one. I completely agree with you when you say an action is a state of change (if indeed a state can contain an action), and justly, I feel that the definition requires slight editing. Thanks for the help!

Leading on from this discussion of change, it seems slightly prophetic as to the definition of Investiture, that within it, change and stability are key features. For example, one could state that Surgebinding is a method of Investiture, just in the same way that spren are Invested objects, and in this instance the spren is the gateway through which the power flows. In this same way, spren react to change. Change, within energy cycles. When energy is channeled through a spren, it reacts. Appearing, disappearing, colour, size, sentience. All change!

See, now, you, Satsuoni, mentioned alongside that quote that when atium is burned, the energy returned to the Pits of Hathsin. Which means that, in eventuality, they reached that Shard's Pool. But how? Well I propose that when the energy from the metal is expended, in the same way as energy is placed through the metal to the user, the energy given out by the user can then return through the Focus (metal) to the Pool again.

In this way, spren are both the distributors of energy and the dustmen of it: they give it out through their Invested bonds to the Shard, the connection that they possess, into the Surgebinder; via his connection also, but to the spren. As the spren has given energy and Spiritweb to the human, it has Invested in them, and thus power through the spren is granted to the human.

Satsuoni, you mentioned that:

Not sure if the metal is absolutely necessary - see Vin and the mists, which I presume to be nearly raw Investiture when "burned". She just got most of the powers she would have is she had metals, but without. Also, I think the power will regenerate... in a while.

I feel what really happened was that she didn't 'burn' the mists, instead she realistically took Preservation, the Shard, upon herself, and the power that she contain in her small body gave her a few moments of seeming invincibility, before her Physical presence was destroyed by the power and she was forced to eject to the Spiritual Realm which can hold the Shard's power.

Like duralumin, which, btw, I assume as something that pushes on the flow of Investiture through metal, increasing its "pressure" and giving you the boost (and a sped up consumption), but maybe without a sped up consumption (and not nearly that much boost). Standard rate of burning is not nearly the absolute maximum, probably just your "pressure differential" with Preservation.

I feel that what happens in actuality with Duralumin, which is a warped piece of the power of Preservation, and thus has a single Intent, which is separate from the of the raw power, is that it simply completely destroys they metal, but from the inside (where the power flows from) outwards, which means that in the short time that the Duralumin takes to destroy the metal (which the raw power that is being converted does at a slower rate) the rate of flow is increased exponentially, giving a moment in which the power of Preservation is allowed a larger girth through which to be converted, and so the power of the magic is raised. Whereas, if you were to hit the metal with raw power, not with the Intent of destruction that Duralumin warps the power into to create the burst effect, it would simply be channeled much that same way as that of Preservation, as opposed to making a Duralumin-esque effect.

Heh.. If that is possible, I'd like to see a steelpush generated from a few tons of steel released in one second (Although that will kill the poor misting quite dead, I'd say)

As mentioned before, it is how I originally thought it'd work, before the game was out.

(Also, pewter gives you Strength, Speed, Agility, Density and increased healing rate Tap a few kilos of that in a second )

It would only kill them as much as four years worth of heat stored in Brass released in one second.