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The origin of Shardplate and Shardblade


Telcontar

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While there has been much discussion about why the KR abandoned their Blade and Plate (Recreance) I wonder how they got their Blade and Plate in the first place. The obvious answer is "Honor gave them to them". I believe there is some in-book quote about this. But even if that may be true, there will a lot more to the process. When, why and how did he give them to the KR?

There is lots of questions about Plate and Blade.

The nature of Plate and Blade

I personally believe them to be objects Invested directly by Honor. To those of you who might be familiar with my terminology, they are created by Primary Investitures.

Primarily Invested objects are different from Splinters though. The latter often have their own intent, seem to be sentient beings in some way. Invested objects are merely objects with proper power, meaning with power on their own: Plate can regrow, Blades cut through stone or metal.

Because they are (possibly) Invested directly by Honor makes them that much more powerful than other Invested objects like Awakened rope for example.

When did they appear?

We know that the KR did not exist before Nohadon. But we also know that there were Surgebinders before them. What distincted KR from Surgebinders though, are the greater amount of power (which comes by following the KR's Ideals) and the Plate and Blade.

So if we say that Nohadon had something to do with the creation of the KR, then Plate and Blade must have appeared about when he lived.

OK, originally I didn't want to post a theory but only give us something to discuss, but I don't feel able to do this without posting the idea. You might be familiar with this theory.

I still don't believe that Nohadon did change the magic system in any way. But I agree on that Nohadon was probably involved somehow.

Let's say he figured out how to make use of the magic system so that spren would grant more power to KRs. (see the linked theory)

But he also had to get the Surgebinders around the world to want to become a KR. Here is where the Plate and Blade step in. Nohadon made the following deal with Honor:

- the KR devote themselves to be honorable and all, thus the Ideals etc.

- in return they get a set of Plate and Blade

Why would Honor agree to this? Well, because it serves his cause if the magic is used according to his Intent, which will help mankind in its battle against Odium.

The remaining question is how Nohadon could have made that deal. In the theory I mentioned, the author claimed it to be due to a Dawnshard. I say that's as good a guess as any.

Nohadon may have gained knowledge of Honor by the Heralds who must have been around during that Desolation. That's also where he came in contact with Honorblades, so probably he asked Honor for something like those.

PS. That's a thought that has been flowing around my mind for quite a while, I have not thought it totally through yet, but I think it's sufficient to start a discussion, so that's all I intend ;)

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Well in my opinion, it seems that the Plate and Blade are inherently tied to Surgebinding, not some separate gift from Honor. I can't back that up with anything whatsoever, other then a gut feeling. However, I don't think Honor would be okay with this "handing out" Plate and Blade to people. That's not Honor, that's bribery. It's what parents do to control a spoiled child. "If you behave now, I'll give you this shiny new toy". I just can't see Honor standing for this, it goes against his intent in my opinion.

Also once these people, who are only acting good for the weapons, actually got a hold of them, what would keep them from disobeying? Nohadon cannot stop them, especially not if his ranks of Surgebinders are all like this. Also, this persona of people who only obey for these weapons, doesn't jive with the Reacreance, where these same Orders were willing to give up their weapons for, what is presumably, the greater good. These are totally different attitudes.

Edited by Windrunner
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As I pointed out... somewhere (ironically I just finished reading an article about memory) the supply of Shardplate seems to be strictly limited. Given the limited supply, Honor would only want to give it to people he felt sure would not misuse it. It's also seemingly designed to be most effective when used in accord with the ideals, so giving it out isn't a blank check. Additionally, Honor is big on binding oaths, so making a deal where the Radiants get Shards if they act in accord with their oaths is in character for him, as such things are traditionally a two-way street.

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"What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?" Dalinar asked carefully.

"I don't know if we can force them to do anything. [...]Their power ... well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them ... [...] They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we've been given - whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond - needs to make us better

Emphasis is mine, of course. It is this statement of Nohadon's that made me consider it. Blade and Plate seem to be a great way to encourage Surgebinders to be "better".

Also, and this is my gut feeling, I believe that Blade and Plate would have been mentioned by Nohadon. As those also are given responsibility. That many power, usable by ANY person.

I think it works out very well for Honor if he can ensure in some way that the immensely powerful objects he gives away are used only by honorable persons. So Blade and Plate as a reward for reaching the fifth Ideal of the KR, something like that. Maybe Honor gave them to Nohadon to let him do what he wanted with them and Nohadon only gave them to the most honorable Surgebinders.

Blade and Plate are not merely a bribe. They are a reward for acting honorable, given only when you act according to the divine attribute(s) for quite a long time. I'd think it hard for someone to fake his way along to the fifth Oath. Just imagine what those will be like. If you act like them, you take the Oath, which binds yourself to it.

I believe it possible to "fake" yourself to get a spren, becoming a Surgebinder. But fake your way among other Radiants, having to act honorably for (probably) years. It probably would change a person to a more honorable one, too.

So, what I'm saying is, people don't obey just for the weapons but are given them when they have proven that they are worth it. Proven that they are honorable people. I think that goes along with Honor's intent.

Edit: I was writing when you posted name_here, that's why we're saying the same ;)

Edited by Telcontar
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  • 2 weeks later...

I wonder if anyone has given any real consideration to the blades being of Odium and the plate possibly being of Honor. Swords and daggers are generally used to kill whereas plate is used for defense.

That could explain the heartbeat limitation and the fact that Syl as an honor spren doesn't like the blades. It is stated in the book that it takes a fixed number of beats, not time. Truly enraged acts usually occur with a highly elevated pulse. Syl being an honor spren (though I still believe that spren themselves are of cultivations) would have a hatred of anything doing with Odium.

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Yes! Let's dive into another mystery!

It seems possible to me that a group of fifth-oath Radiants of varying orders combined with their spren and maybe a little extra from Honor could create the amazing fabrials that the plate and blade seem to be. They could still be primary investitures (or not, depending on how Brandon wants to play it). The blades are supposed to be unique art pieces, which would support the idea of individual craftmanship.

What happened to the non-Radiant surgebinders?

We know that Kaladin as a first-oath Radiant used stormlight an order of magnitude more effectively than Szeth. So there is a payoff to adopting the oaths: increased power. Consider surgebinders who wanted to use the power in dishonorable ways. Wouldn't the Radiants feel bound to stop people who were abusing their power?

Remember Kaladin's storm dream. He is drawn to a phenomenon (Szeth using stormlight) and find Szeth in the act of assassinating. It seems reasonable to me that Radiants could detect other surgebinders.

So for surgebinders, the choice quickly becomes stark. Option one: become a Radiant, with much greater power, a cause, a society and awesome hardware. Option two: use your power honorably without any of the benefits. Option three: Use your power in dishonorable ways and fight the numbers, honor-enhanced strength and hardware of the Radiants.

Just a few thoughts. I think I can count on you guys to find the problems with my ramblings ...

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I wonder if anyone has given any real consideration to the blades being of Odium and the plate possibly being of Honor. Swords and daggers are generally used to kill whereas plate is used for defense.

I think a lot of folks have hypothesized just that, but no concensus seems to have come from it.

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Well, it does seem to make a bit of sense to me that the blades would be of Odium. For the reason I mentioned above. As for the plate, I am willing to stretch and say that they are Honor and Cultivation working together to combat something developed by Odium.

Blades are used almost exclusively for killing. All of the blades we have seen so far have been timed to heartbeats. When a person is in a battle or bloodrage, the pulse tends to speed up, allowing the blade to be retrieved more quickly. Hatred and killing tend to go fairly well together. Afterall, even today, we do not symbolize our enemies as fluffy bunnies before we send in troops. Syl as an Honor spren expresses her distaste of the blades. Since she is a sentient creature with an honorable intent, she would dislike anything that ran against honor, which hatred usually does.

Plate armor has always been a primarily defensive innovation. It is meant to give the persons protection against aggression or even hatred in battle. When I think of an honorable knight from the middle ages, I almost always see someone dressed in full armor. Sure, they do have their swords, but that is almost always sort of an appendage to the armor. The shardplate specifically has qualities of honor and cultivation. Honor from above, cultivation from the fact that gems are used to replenish their power or rejuvenate the entire suits. Isn't it Dalinar that states that shardplate can be grown from the smallest fragment if enough gems are used to power the regrowth? For purposes of Cultivation, that is little different than throwing fertilizer into a field of squash, or watering a crop of potatoes or wheat.

Also, look at the definitions of the words recreant and recreance. Most of the definitions have the basic meaning of coward or cowardice, but one of the submeanings is Apostate and Apostacy. An Apostate is someone that completely abandons his loyalties. Them just showing up and abandoning their equipment definately applies. To spin this, I would postulate that the war they were fighting was actually for the benefit of Odium who likes death and hatred. When they discovered this, they abandoned the war because they did not want to support such a belief. This would by definition by a sort of Apostacy. Even in modern usage, Apostate and Traitor have very negative connotations. Because all most people would have seen was their last line of defense leaving them to fend for themselves, the feeling that they were abandoning their loyalties would have pervaded just out of misinformation about their act.

YES, all the above is pure speculation. The only people that know for sure if anything any of us have said is right are Brandon and possibly Peter. Considering only 1:10 books have been written so far, I am not 100% positive that even Brandon knows exactly how everything is going to turn out in the next few books or to the end.

Edited by Aethling
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It seems possible to me that a group of fifth-oath Radiants of varying orders combined with their spren and maybe a little extra from Honor could create the amazing fabrials that the plate and blade seem to be. They could still be primary investitures (or not, depending on how Brandon wants to play it). The blades are supposed to be unique art pieces, which would support the idea of individual craftmanship.

You assume that fabrials existed when the KR were founded.

Firstly we have Dalinar who is convinced that there were no fabrials in his visions.

Secondly we know that fabrials require a spren trapped into a gemstone. See the thread entitled "Fabrials and spren" on General Theories. There has been some discussion on what fabrials are and how they work. But there is a doubt on whether normal, ie non-Nahel-spren, ie spren that did not bond to honorable people, already existed when the KR were formed. Since we know that Honor is splintered, it seems likely (at least to me) that spren were the result of Honor's splintering. But this occured many years and Desolations later, since BS has told explicitely that Honor was still around when the Heralds left. So: no spren, no fabrials.

This requires of course that Nahel-spren are different from 'normal' spren.

I didn't really want to discuss about Blades being of Odium or Honor, since there is like 50 threads out there discussing that topic. But anyway.

  • Why should Odium give the KR swords that could cut thunderclasts as easily as air? And don't tell me Shardblades were around on Roshar before the KR.
  • Why should the KR (as THE honorable association) be given swords that are primarily used to fight back Desolations and the Ten Deaths and such things.
  • If you point out that Syl does not like Dalinar's Blade very much, did it never occur to you that hundreds of spren like Syl were bonded to KR who wielded that kind of Blades for centuries and it probably did not bother anyone?
  • You say that hatred and killing go fairly well together. It depends on what you kill. People kill animals to eat them, or insects because they are annoying. Even killing humans in defense of your or another's life wouldn't be killing because of hatred. And the KR probably didn't kill people (at least originally) but used the swords to defend humans.
  • I don't really understand why the heartbeat limitation should be an argument in favor of the Odium-origin of Shardblades. As I said, it would equally help you to get your sword faster, when a thunderclast threatens to kill you.
  • Of course Blades may have and probably have been misused later, to kill other humans. But that's completely different. You could use only your Plate to kill. Just smash your heavy gauntlet in someone's face. Like Adolin likes to do. That is sufficient to kill someone. Or use a hammer like Sadeas.

My opinion about why Syl doesn't like Dalinar's Blade. It's probably because they have been misused in the past. Dalinar kills Parshendi with it. Also a Blade severes the spiritual connection of a being. As a mainly spiritual being maybe a Blade could kill even a spren.

So, how about getting back to topic? the origin of Plate and Blade?

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I honestly believe Plate sets were created for the reasons Telcontar describes above. I believe the Plate is supercharged by someone wearing it who has spoken the Oaths. The Blades are probably similar. He's looking for some way to increase their chances of surviving and winning future Desolations, so having weapons at hand would make sense. Just because they do horrible things when used against humans doesn't make them of Odium. A cheese grater could do quite a bit of damage to flesh, but that doesn't mean cheese graters are made with evil intent.

The problem for me is the technology to create such things was non-existent on Roshar at the time. Kalak describes the people walking alongside the KR as pretty primitive. I'm making the assumption this was after Nohadan, since KRs didn't exist during his time. If the people then could create such items, Roshar would look a lot different.

I think an outside entity had to have either provided the items themselves or just a controlled amount of knowledge to someone with the capacity to create them. There's only a finite amount of Plate, so there were internal controls built into their creation as well, which denotes a controlling force or authority.

Although, they're called Desolations for a reason. There was probably quite a loss of technology after one of those bad boys.

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Okay. I will try not to be defensive.

So, how about getting back to topic? the origin of Plate and Blade?

Was this for me? I thought I was speculating directly about two points in your opening post.

Assuming that that part was not for me and on to your response.

You assume that fabrials existed when the KR were founded.

No. I don't. I do believe that Shardblades and Shardplate are fabrials of a sort. I believe that they were created using techniques not available to the artifabrians that Navani knows. They have gem and non-gem components, they do magical things, they use stormlight, they do not clone themselves or exchange genetic material to make little Shardblades and Shardplate. Ergo, they are fabrials.

Are you assuming that the first Radiants had Shardplate and Shardblades?

I believe that between the Nohadon vision and the midnight essence vision, some combination of Honor/Tanavast and the Radiants created the following "fabrials": Shardblades, Shardplate, the Regrowth fabrial that the Stoneward uses in the midnight essence vision.

I believe that the Radiants helped establish Urithiru during Nohadon's lifetime.

I believe that the Radiants at some point helped create other "fabrials" including Soulcasters and Oathgates for teleportation.

Firstly we have Dalinar who is convinced that there were no fabrials in his visions.

As I recall, he says something like: "The ancients didn't have fabrials, I'm sure of that". I think this is after the Midnight Essence vision, in which he has seen Shardblades, Shardblades and the Regrower fabrials in action. I believe that he is referring to the non-Radiant society that the early Nohadon and the Natan peasants were part of. I believe that the Radiants had developed these fabrials after the early Nohadon vision and didn't share the techniques of their fabrication with the non-Radiant society of the Natan peasants.

Secondly we know that fabrials require a spren trapped into a gemstone.

We know that Navani believes this. I don't know that this is the only way, or that this is the technique that the Radiants used to create their fabrials.

But there is a doubt on whether normal, ie non-Nahel-spren, ie spren that did not bond to honorable people, already existed when the KR were formed.

Is doubt disproof? In any case, the Dalinar-vision Nohadon believed that Nahel bond spren bound to dishonorable people, so I question your "ie" chain.

Since we know that Honor is splintered, it seems likely (at least to me) that spren were the result of Honor's splintering. ...

This requires of course that Nahel-spren are different from 'normal' spren.

This theory, which I don't believe is canon, explains the lack of spren in Kalak's prelude and Dalinar's vision. While I don't disbelieve it, I don't espouse it either.

Consider the other splinters we have seen.

Returned are voluntary splinters of Endowment.

Seons are involuntary splinters of Devotion (Love, Compassion) that appeared after it was splintered.

I believe that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor (a theory I believe, not proven, not canon, etc).

Others have suggested that the honorspren are voluntary splinters of Honor (not my theory, not proven, not canon, etc).

Others have suggested that the Shardblades and Shardplate are voluntary splinters of Honor (not my theory, not proven, not canon, etc).

The splinters all seem closely related to the Shardic intent. The many, many spren on Roshar seem so random to me that I merely consider their splinterhood to be a possibility, and not evidence to prove or disprove any other theory.

Whoah, too long! Sorry!

Edited: Add Shardblades and Shardplates as possible voluntary splinters. Ceased to claim ownership of Heralds as splinters.

Edited by hoser
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Was this for me? I thought I was speculating directly about two points in your opening post.

It wasn't, feel reassured. It was about the Blades-are-of-Odium idea, which should not take place here IMO. But then again, it would not be the first time a discussion completely generates into another one.

Hope you don't take offense, Aethling, I just like to stay on topic in the discussion I started.

@hoser. I would be the last person to complain about a long post. I just feel that I'm in a bad position to criticise in that matter ;)

No. I don't. I do believe that Shardblades and Shardplate are fabrials of a sort. I believe that they were created using techniques not available to the artifabrians that Navani knows. They have gem and non-gem components, they do magical things, they use stormlight, they do not clone themselves or exchange genetic material to make little Shardblades and Shardplate. Ergo, they are fabrials.

Ok, I understand better now. I don't believe in that theory, but when it comes to belief nothing can be sure :) So let's discuss about things that can be discussed, what you already began with.

Are you assuming that the first Radiants had Shardplate and Shardblades?

I believe that between the Nohadon vision and the midnight essence vision, some combination of Honor/Tanavast and the Radiants created the following "fabrials": Shardblades, Shardplate, the Regrowth fabrial that the Stoneward uses in the midnight essence vision.

I believe that the Radiants helped establish Urithiru during Nohadon's lifetime.

I believe that the Radiants at some point helped create other "fabrials" including Soulcasters and Oathgates for teleportation.

To be exact, that's my theory. That Nohadon found a way to procure Blade and Plate in order to motivate Surgebinders to become KR, bound by their (honorable) oaths. And that Blade and Plate were indeed given by Honor.

As I recall, he says something like: "The ancients didn't have fabrials, I'm sure of that". I think this is after the Midnight Essence vision, in which he has seen Shardblades, Shardblades and the Regrower fabrials in action. I believe that he is referring to the non-Radiant society that the early Nohadon and the Natan peasants were part of. I believe that the Radiants had developed these fabrials after the early Nohadon vision and didn't share the techniques of their fabrication with the non-Radiant society of the Natan peasants.

Now there is two things.

At that point, Dalinar has already experienced a good number of visions, in which he has not seen anything that resembles the modern fabrials. In his society Blade and Plate are not considered fabrials. Blades for one thing don't do anything on their own. It could be that they are powered by Stormlight (they do have a gem which would be infused everytime it is back in the spiritual realm, also the Blades glowed in the Recreance-vision). And for Plate we have no spren that is used.

I forgot the other thing :)

We know that Navani believes this. I don't know that this is the only way, or that this is the technique that the Radiants used to create their fabrials.
And she is the best artifabriwhatever on Roshar. I just believe her in that matter.
Is doubt disproof? In any case, the Dalinar-vision Nohadon believed that Nahel bond spren bound to dishonorable people, so I question your "ie" chain.
It's always about the interpreation of honorable. Szeth is a Surgebinder, probably because he stucks to his oath at all costs, probably having gained his bond by protecting people. I know there is that possibility that Szeht gained his Windrunner-powers in some other way, but for now I presume that Szeth has his spren.
This theory, which I don't believe is canon, explains the lack of spren in Kalak's prelude and Dalinar's vision. While I don't disbelieve it, I don't espouse it either.
It's not, you're right. But you've seen where it comes from, I believe. I espouse it for now. Just because it fits in with everything else.
Consider the other splinters we have seen.

Returned are voluntary splinters of Endowment.

Seons are involuntary splinters of Devotion (Love, Compassion) that appeared after it was splintered.

I believe that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor (my theory, not proven, not canon, etc).

Others have suggested that the honorspren are voluntary splinters of Honor (not my theory, not proven, not canon, etc).

The splinters all seem closely related to the Shardic intent. The many, many spren on Roshar seem so random to me that I merely consider their splinterhood to be a possibility, and not evidence to prove or disprove any other theory.

I think that the Shardic intent only plays a role with voluntary splinters. Also a 'real' splinter needs more spiritual energy IMO than the result of a splintering. I think those many many spren would just be too small to have a real intent. I don't know if a Shard can influence his 'body' after he is splintered.

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To be exact, that's my theory. That Nohadon found a way to procure Blade and Plate in order to motivate Surgebinders to become KR, bound by their (honorable) oaths. And that Blade and Plate were indeed given by Honor.

This seems entirely possible. I proposed, and preferred, but not to the point of espousal, that the Radiants participated in the creation of the Blades and Plate. It just seems more in line with the way Honor works to me. I bind myself to something, sacrifice for it, and am rewarded.

  1. Kaladin works hard to protect and an honorspren binds him.
  2. The heralds compete to be chosen on Proving day, agree to be tortured as part of the Oathpact, fight whenever they are not tortured, and are given power and immortality.
  3. By acting relatively morally, Adolin and Dalinar are chosen by Ryshadium.

So having to help make the armor and weapons would be more of an earning than a bribery economy.

Either way seems to fit the facts, as far as I can tell. ;)

Blades for one thing don't do anything on their own.

Yeah. Nor do spanreeds or soulcasters, to compare to similar modern fabrials. I don't think either Honor or the Radiants wanted to create a bunch of Nightbloods.

And for Plate we have no spren that is used.

When they replace a cracked gem in a Soulcaster, do they have to catch a spren in a particular cut of gem? Don't we already know that the Radiant-era and modern Rosharian fabrials work differently?

I forgot the other thing :)

Me too. Hey look! A bird!

Szeth is a Surgebinder, probably because he stucks to his oath at all costs, probably having gained his bond by protecting people. I know there is that possibility that Szeht gained his Windrunner-powers in some other way, but for now I presume that Szeth has his spren.

Szeth himself claims to not be a Windrunner. His motivation, to have his soul remain in the stone rather than be annihilated, does not seem particularly honorable, nor do his acts conform to any honorable oaths, explicit or implicit. Apparently the act he is being punished for harmed the Voidbringers somehow, so that act was presumably honorable. Doesn't really make sense to me. Anyway, I believe there is WOB on this here (see #24).

I think that the Shardic intent only plays a role with voluntary splinters.

The involuntary splinters of Devotion are the only ones I know of. They seem to me to fit the Shardic intent very closely. Data, but not proof :blink:.

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This seems entirely possible. I proposed, and preferred, but not to the point of espousal, that the Radiants participated in the creation of the Blades and Plate. It just seems more in line with the way Honor works to me. I bind myself to something, sacrifice for it, and am rewarded.

  1. Kaladin works hard to protect and an honorspren binds him.
  2. The heralds compete to be chosen on Proving day, agree to be tortured as part of the Oathpact, fight whenever they are not tortured, and are given power and immortality.
  3. By acting relatively morally, Adolin and Dalinar are chosen by Ryshadium.

So having to help make the armor and weapons would be more of an earning than a bribery economy.

Either way seems to fit the facts, as far as I can tell. ;)

Let's call it a tie, it's theory against theory ;) Your premise is that there is Radiant-era fabrials, mine is that there are not.

Yeah. Nor do spanreeds or soulcasters, to compare to similar modern fabrials. I don't think either Honor or the Radiants wanted to create a bunch of Nightbloods.

I'm not sure about Soulcasters. If they're fabrials at all. If yes, are all Soulcasters fabrials or only those who have a limited effect? Jasnah's for one is no Soulcaster but just a thing to put gems in so that you have Stormlight at hand.

When they replace a cracked gem in a Soulcaster, do they have to catch a spren in a particular cut of gem? Don't we already know that the Radiant-era and modern Rosharian fabrials work differently?
you see, when I write something I follow the idea that there are no Radiant-era fabrials ;) If there are Radiant-era fabrials, yes, they would work differently, and probably without spren.
Szeth himself claims to not be a Windrunner. His motivation, to have his soul remain in the stone rather than be annihilated, does not seem particularly honorable, nor do his acts conform to any honorable oaths, explicit or implicit. Apparently the act he is being punished for harmed the Voidbringers somehow, so that act was presumably honorable. Doesn't really make sense to me. Anyway, I believe there is WOB on this here (see #24).
Still he is a Surgebinder. That's why I said Surgebinder and not Windrunner. He only uses the Lashings which are the power-set of a Windrunner.

About his soul in the stone, is that a theory which I don't know? I would believe that Szeth was taught Surgebinding as a kind of protector of his people, then betrayed his people and was outcast. Yet his spren stays with him. I'm doing some research about Szeth from time to time. One day I'll post yet another of my theories here. :P

The involuntary splinters of Devotion are the only ones I know of. They seem to me to fit the Shardic intent very closely. Data, but not proof :blink:.
Yeah, there is not much about involuntary splinters we know. Maybe I just presumed too much.
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Amazing how the same set of facts can lead to different constructions. The mind is an amazing tool for constructing theories from limited data. And then I somehow decide that my ideas are correct. <_<

About his soul in the stone, is that a theory which I don't know?

It is what he thinks to himself in his second interlude (Ch I-6, paperback p 550):

Though his murders and sins would damnation him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.

Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.

With that motivation for murder, I have difficulty imagining an honorspren maintaining a bond. I don't question that he is surgebinding. I think he knows where he gets his abilities, and was trained in their use. I am not aware of any evidence that there is a spren Nahel-bonded to him.

I believe, but I can't support strongly, that his abilities come from being linked to Jezrien's Honorblade.

Edited by hoser
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Amazing how the same set of facts can lead to different constructions. The mind is an amazing tool for constructing theories from limited data. And then I somehow decide that my ideas are correct. <_<

So do I :P
With that motivation for murder, I have difficulty imagining an honorspren maintaining a bond. I don't question that he is surgebinding. I think he knows where he gets his abilities, and was trained in their use. I am not aware of any evidence that there is a spren Nahel-bonded to him.

I believe, but I can't support strongly, that his abilities come from being linked to Jezrien's Honorblade.

I don't interpretate that quote that way. "His soul would be given to the stones."

Given that stone is sacred to the Shin, and Szeth is Shin. And in the prologue he expresses himself that he thinks that stone is sacred... I think that's more a matter of Shin religion, that they believe their soul goes (back) to the stones after their death.

I'd rather say that he will be relieved on his death (soul going to the stones instead of whatever hell is for the Shin) because he stucks to his oath. His motivation would then be to honor his oath (whatever that one is). And Voilà, you have your 'honorable' behaviour.

I agree that we don't have any evidence for a spren bonded to Szeth. Still I think that there is one. It just does not reveil itself to him like Syl did to Kaladin. Syl did that only to stop him from being a resigned zombie. Also Shallan has not seen her spren yet, but she's Surgebinding already.

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