Tears of Edgli aren't Endowment's Physical Aspect?

[Windrunner]

So I like, most people I think, have always assumed that the Tears of Edgli are the physical aspect of Endowment. They provide color for dyes of course, and since colors are the physical aspect of Awakening it makes sense. The physical aspects of Ruin and Preservation are metals after all just like their Investitures. But today I found some evidence that it isn't true.

Wide- petaled flowers bloomed in planters; some of them were actually Tears of Edgli.

This on its own is unimportant. Vivenna simply sees the Tears of Edgli. But then I read this:

GORADEL

Also, does Endowment have some physical presence in the book similar to Ruin=Atium, etc?

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

Endowment does have such a thing, but it does not appear onscreen in the novel Warbreaker.

Source

So since the Tears of Edgli appear in-book does this mean they aren't Endowment's physical aspect? Did Brandon just forget such a throw-away appearance or add them on a late edit? What does everyone else think?

[master]

So since the Tears of Edgli appear in-book does this mean they aren't Endowment's physical aspect? Did Brandon just forget such a throw-away appearance or add them on a late edit? What does everyone else think?

@Josh: Is Edgli Endowment's real name?

RAFO, however the flowers are related to Endowment somehow...

and about the throwaway line

17th Shard: Is Cultivation a Shard on Roshar?

Brandon: Yes, Cultivation is. (very inquisitively) Where did you get that word?

17th Shard: It's in the book.

Brandon: Is it in the book? Okay.

17th Shard: It's mentioned once.

Brandon: Okay, one of the Shards form Roshar is Cultivation.

so he does get a bit forgetful

source

http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/Brandonology

[Windrunner]

Upvoted! Thank you for that, I was freaking out a little bit. It's such a small mention that I guess he forgot. I wonder how the Tears fuel Awakening? I have no idea...

Also why is Edgli crying? Because she got chased away from her original Shardworld and all her old people are dead? I would like that a lot.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Windrunner

[Zas678]

GORADEL

Also, does Endowment have some physical presence in the book similar to Ruin=Atium, etc?

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

Endowment does have such a thing, but it does not appear onscreen in the novel Warbreaker.

Source

I think what this quote means is that the Tears of Edgli isn't a concentrated version of Endowment's power. It still might be the physical portion of Awakening (like metals), but it isn't Concentrated Endowment,

[Windrunner]

Hmm, I'm not following you. Are you saying that there is a physical aspect of the magic system that is separate from the physical (concentrated) aspect of the Shard that is used in the magic system? Because certain metals were required for Allomancy, but if color from the Tears of Edgli was necessary for Awakening Vasher wouldn't have been able to drain color from stone. What am I missing?

[Zas678]

Hmm, I'm not following you. Are you saying that there is a physical aspect of the magic system that is separate from the physical (concentrated) aspect of the Shard that is used in the magic system? Because certain metals were required for Allomancy, but if color from the Tears of Edgli was necessary for Awakening Vasher wouldn't have been able to drain color from stone. What am I missing?

Yes. I'm saying that metals, normal metals are the same from world to world. I'd imagine that the Flowers of Edgli could be planted from world to world without drawing away energy from Endowment.

Now the pure physical aspect of a shard, such as Atium or Lerasium, doesn't have these properties. It is purely made from the useable power of the Shard, so the more Atium there is, the less power that Ruin has.

What I believe is that the Tears of Edgli aren't this way. I could have one flower, or a million, and Endowment would have the same amount of power.

I think the mistake you are making is confusing the pure physical power of a shard (like Atium), with the physical aspect of a magic system (like color or metal). With Allomancy, it ends up being the same thing. Atium is a metal, and so can be burned allomantically. If Endowment's pure physical power is colorful (which it probably is), awakening with it probably has some benefits that normal colors wouldn't- for example, you may need fewer breaths to awaken using Endowment's pure physical power, or maybe you can use less powerful Commands.

[Odium's_Shard]

If you mean more powerful Commands could be accessed using Endowment Physical Manifestation, then I believe that the most powerful ones you can get are the most abstract, because they cover the largest scope (ie 'Protect me' costs alot, but protects from ALL and in EVERY way), but also have the most useful manifestations. And excellent Command, if properly visualized, and perhaps with Endowment's Pure Power as a colour/source of power, might be:

'Kill my enemies.'

But then you might have a difficult time with the entire 'Intent' phenomenon that we see in series like 'The Sword of Truth', in which the sword, say, has a difficult time being able to perceive what an 'enemy' is, and may take it to both extremes, ie, killing people you only mildly distrust, or not killing people sprinting towards you with a warhammer in hand, simply because you don't know they're there and can't perceive them as 'aggresor', because the sword sure can't think of its own will.

Instead, I believe a good activation phrase might go:

"Kill people whose names I say following the word 'kill'."

If that is possible, with a number of Breaths, would this, instead of a normal Awakened Objects (like a sword) create a Lifeless Object (in which the Breaths can never be retrieved) much like Nightblood. I still feel they could've handled Nightblood's Command much better than they did. They should have put a security phrase in, so they could edit the Commands it receives, much like normal Lifeless, or at least put in an activation code, such as 'Destroy evil when I draw' or some such catch.

[Windrunner]

I think the mistake you are making is confusing the pure physical power of a shard (like Atium), with the physical aspect of a magic system (like color or metal). With Allomancy, it ends up being the same thing. Atium is a metal, and so can be burned allomantically. If Endowment's pure physical power is colorful (which it probably is), awakening with it probably has some benefits that normal colors wouldn't- for example, you may need fewer breaths to awaken using Endowment's pure physical power, or maybe you can use less powerful Commands.

I would agree with the Tears being Awakening's physical aspect if only color from them could be used for Awakening. Since any color could be used, I don't see there being any need to have created a fictional flower to be the physical aspect of the magic system. Color's the physical aspect not the Tears of Edgli. Do you see a reason they need to exist? I just assumed that their dyes perhaps wouldn't be used up as fast as regular color, providing a super-fuel like Lerasium and Atium. I just don't get what purpose they would provide if not Endowment's physical aspect, since they aren't required for the system to function like certain metals are.

Instead, I believe a good activation phrase might go:

"Kill people whose names I say following the word 'kill'."

If that is possible, with a number of Breaths, would this, instead of a normal Awakened Objects (like a sword) create a Lifeless Object (in which the Breaths can never be retrieved) much like Nightblood. I still feel they could've handled Nightblood's Command much better than they did. They should have put a security phrase in, so they could edit the Commands it receives, much like normal Lifeless, or at least put in an activation code, such as 'Destroy evil when I draw' or some such catch.

It's a good idea for them to have left in a backdoor to alter Nightblood's Command, but I'm not sure it's possible. Brandon says that the Command becomes the fundamental basis for the construct's personality, so it might be impossible to change. Complex commands also require more mental gymnastics, so 'Destroy evil when I draw' or "Kill people whose names I say following the word 'kill,'" might have been too abstract or difficult a Command for them to visualize. I hope "Nightblood" goes into more detail about how Nightblood was constructed.

[master]

It's a good idea for them to have left in a backdoor to alter Nightblood's Command, but I'm not sure it's possible. Brandon says that the Command becomes the fundamental basis for the construct's personality, so it might be impossible to change. Complex commands also require more mental gymnastics, so 'Destroy evil when I draw' or "Kill people whose names I say following the word 'kill,'" might have been too abstract or difficult a Command for them to visualize. I hope "Nightblood" goes into more detail about how Nightblood was constructed.

I wonder if a command such as 'obey the wielder" would've worked. the sword is semisapient so it should be able to understand the command and would remove all problems of independence.

on another note, I wonder what would happen if endowment [the shard] used one of those superbreaths on an inorganic object. would it be able to understand concepts such as evil? actually I wonder if it were possibly for a returned to give a superbreath to an object instead of healing. it might be that the duty they've decided to come back for is fighting evil by figuring out a way to make a sword that understands what evil is.

[Odium's_Shard]

By semi-sapient, you refer to a sword that has the mental capacity just equal enough to justify everything around it as 'evil', and 'destroyable', thus giving itself freelance to slay them all given the chance? And you want to give it enough power to act on every whim of the user?

'I wish she'd just shut up.'

Women no longer has a mouth three seconds later.

[master]

By semi-sapient, you refer to a sword that has the mental capacity just equal enough to justify everything around it as 'evil', and 'destroyable', thus giving itself freelance to slay them all given the chance? And you want to give it enough power to act on every whim of the user?

'I wish she'd just shut up.'

Women no longer has a mouth three seconds later.

On the first point I mean that a semisapient being would be able to think, but wouldnt have morals or the ability to understand evil. so if given a command to destroy evil it would kill anyone it assumes is evil.

2.what? how the hell would a sword be able to remove a mouth. maybe a pair of needles and thread. but a sword? that said giving a sword a command to "obey" wouldn't really have a morals clause attached to it. becuase assuming that the sword wouldn't be able to understand human morality, it would be up to the weilder to decide what it does. I can see how this could be abused by the weilder, but would having a sword that can kill anyone who goes near it be any better? the best thing to do would be to not create one in the first place. but if one ius created I'd rather want to tell it to shut up than listen to constant nagging about destroying "evil".

[Satsuoni]

On the first point I mean that a semisapient being would be able to think, but wouldnt have morals or the ability to understand evil. so if given a command to destroy evil it would kill anyone it assumes is evil.

2.what? how the hell would a sword be able to remove a mouth. maybe a pair of needles and thread. but a sword? that said giving a sword a command to "obey" wouldn't really have a morals clause attached to it. becuase assuming that the sword wouldn't be able to understand human morality, it would be up to the weilder to decide what it does. I can see how this could be abused by the weilder, but would having a sword that can kill anyone who goes near it be any better? the best thing to do would be to not create one in the first place. but if one ius created I'd rather want to tell it to shut up than listen to constant nagging about destroying "evil".

Actually, Nighblood is fully sapient, just different. His command is his (its?) moral core, amongst other things. Also, I am not sure what evil is (everything that actes against my interests?), and see morals as an expression of self-preservation drilled into me during my first years of development. Am I semisapient (by your definition)?

Second : how does the sword destroy walls and people by the black smoke? It could destroy mouth in the same way. It is also free to interpret the command given by wielder in any way it wants, so "obey wielder" is even worse than "destroy evil", being a superset of the second one (you can command it to destroy evil, without explaining what evil is. I will act as Nightblood. Or you can command it "kill enemy soldiers", and it will kill every soldier in vicinity, possibly taking in a wielder, since every soldier is an enemy of some other soldier. And it will not stop until the command is superseded, or it runs out of Breaths)

[master]

I disagree with it interpreting what its owner says its basic camand is to obey. If the basic command defines its personality than making its basic command be okay would probably remove al independence. it would require a certain amount of babysitting, but so does nightblood in its current state.

[Odium's_Shard]

By removal of the mouth through test of sword, I was referring to the fact that Nightblood, or a sapient object similar to it with a different command (ie 'obey me'), would be fully justifiable in its actions so long as they lead to the user's desired result.

Her shutting up could be caused by a removal of the eyes, tongue, or heart, in any fashion the weapon sees fit. It wouldn't just sew up the mouth, it might just take off its face. Nightblood also seems to have 'moods', it sometimes states that it is in a 'mood' for killing, etc. If this sapient object had moods, this could be extremely dangerous, for it could interpret your whims very literally to satisfy its own impatience, for example, or be too lax in their following to save you against an incoming swordsman if it was feeling particularly lazy.

[Thought]

To touch more upon the original question, the flowers seem to be more akin to Preservation's mists, rather than lerasium or atium. That is, it is a potent, effective fuel, just as the mists were. Lerasium, on the other hand, produced unique allomantic effects, as did atium. If these flowers were like those metals, then it seems like they should have effects that you don't find elsewhere.

[ReaderAt2046]

If that is possible, with a number of Breaths, would this, instead of a normal Awakened Objects (like a sword) create a Lifeless Object (in which the Breaths can never be retrieved) much like Nightblood. I still feel they could've handled Nightblood's Command much better than they did. They should have put a security phrase in, so they could edit the Commands it receives, much like normal Lifeless, or at least put in an activation code, such as 'Destroy evil when I draw' or some such catch.

I think they didn't put in an alteration code because they didn't think it was possible. Remember, Lifeless can have their commands changed because they have a human brain. Nightblood doesn't.

And Nightblood's command does only activate when he's drawn, remember?

Edited April 27, 2012 by ReaderAt2046