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The Parshmen are Shardblades and Plates


anthonydraco

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Well, I wrote him about this crazy theory. I'm not sure if his reply is a form rejection or not, but he suggested me to post it here. I don't know if it's my confirmation bias or not, but I think that maybe he didn't want to outright deny/lie that my theory was wrong. This is what he said:

Thanks for writing me!

You knew this was coming, but I'm going to have to say RAFO (Read And Find Out) to your question. However, I think you should post your theory at 17thShard.com

Thank you for reading.

Best,

Brandon

Has anyone wrote him and get the same rejection? Please confirm if any of you did. If someone did, then my theory is more than likely wrong. As I assume he can't be bothered to read my long theories among tons of mails. But here goes nothing:

WARNING! DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED THE WAY OF KINGS. MEGA SPOILERS BELOW!

The Parshendi and Parshmen are Shardblades and Plates.

Age:

Szeth mentioned in ‘To Kill’ that there were rumors saying that the Alethi came close to creating Shardblades and Plates. However, we discovered later in the books that the Half-Shards had been developed in Jah Keved. This means that the Half-Shards weren’t the ones mentioned in these rumors. They were something else the Alethi were working on, and the rumor came around the time Gavilar was still allied with the Parshendi.

Nevani mentioned that although they could reproduce fabrials, they didn’t come close to recreating Shadeblades and Plates, as they were far, far older and use different theories.

Many of Dalinar’s visions mentioned Shardblades and Plates along with copper and bronze and other rudimentary weapons, of time before steel. This means that the Blades and Plates came before steel. If the Blades and Plates were so hard to create, it didn’t make sense that humans would be able to create them before they could create steel. This led me to believe that making it was relatively easier than smelting iron.

In real life, human in ancient times used bones, stones, and wood before they knew how to use metal. This led me to believe that the Blades and Plates must be one of these. More specifically, they’re Voidbringer’s chitin, or whatever exo/endoskeleton their carcasses could provide. Since the Voidbringers came cyclically, ancient humans were sure to have access to carcasses of the Voidbringers they had slain.

Nerve transmission:

Shardplates allowed the bearers to feel whatever they touch as if they were the bearers’ own skins. This resembles transmitting nerve impulses. It also confirms that the Blades and the Plates are biological.

Human-shaped, and made for human:

The Parshendi have already showed that they could grow carapaces. Voidbringers were depicted as something as big as a house. Assuming that Jasnah Kholin was right in her conclusion that the parshmen were Voidbringers – that something that look human could transform into something so large – the Voidbringers must have an intermediate form between humanoid and colossal crustacean. In this intermediate form, if the Parshendi were to grow carapaces that cover all of their bodies out of themselves, you get full sets of armor.

Crustaceans’ exoskeleton always fit the crustacean perfectly, and almost always seamless. So do Shardplates. They fit perfectly, and they have no seams.

Parshmen were possessive or their dead. They were enraged or very upset when their dead were moved. The reason behind this could be because their carapaces and bones were valuable. If they're always upset and can't work as slaves when you touch their dead, mankind could decide to leave their deads alone as long as the parshemen served them. Through time, this silent agreement could transform into something that simply be, and eventually, people forgot the true reason behind it. 4,500 years seems like a sufficient time. This agreement not to disturb their dead and harvest their carcasses also explains why there were no more Plates and Plates made.

There were also hints when a member of the bridgecrew made armor of these carapaces. He said they were almost as hard as metal but might lighter.

Response to Stormlight:

The Parshendi used Stormlight. There are many confirmations throughout the story. The fact that they woven gems into their hair and beard. Szeth also mentioned in ‘To Kill’ a myth saying that the Voidbringers could hold Stormlight within themselves perfectly. The Parshendi have superhuman abilities. It could be because their different physiology, or because they could use Stormlight, or both. But I think that they more than likely could, otherwise, they have no reason to weave gemstones into their beard and hair.

In the present time of the story, Plates and Blades didn’t glow, but they had, while they’d still belonged to the Radiants. More specifically, while the Radiants had been in them or wielding them. This led me to believe the Radiants could hold Stormlight, and the Blades and Plates responded to it by performing better.

That makes the Parshendi and the Plates similar. (This also confirms that a Plate and a Blade were destined for Kaladin as well.)

Fire:

“Born from darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their skin as fire marked their souls.” A quote rediscovered by Jasnah Kholin. This obviously mentioned the fact that the parshmen were dark, and marbled with red. The quote mentioned fire and their soul. This links the parshmen to fire of the Damnation. When Shardblades kill, the victims’ eyes burned. This links Shardblades to fire as well.

And if the Voidbringers were so fearsome, it only made sense that they weren’t just size. A Shardblade could as well be one of their appendage or natural weapons.

This is rather far-fetched, but I think the fire is expressed as an effect of Shardblades for a reason.

Evil:

After Dalinar talked to Kaladin near the end, after Dalinar left, Syl mentioned the Blades are evil, and Dalinar is better off giving it up. She responded strongly when Kaladin asked her about Odium. I have a feeling that since the Voidbringers came from Damnation which was associated with Odium, and that the Blades came from Voidbringers, this could be the reason why she said so.

Edited by anthonydraco
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Most immediate problem I see is that that carapace of the parshendi is stated to be incredibly light, the opposite is true of shard plate. They also didn't even touch their own dead, if the reason they didn't like others touching was fear of stealing shards then they would definitely carry their dead away. We also see a parshendi sharbearer at some point and he obviously looks quite different. So yea, not a bad theory but I think it would take a lot of explaining :P

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I think I can explain both.

Maybe I was wrong about the reason why they don't move their dead. They're protective, but maybe not because of fear of stealing. The reason maybe religious, which it seems so. Or maybe something inhibit them from using the carcass. The result is the same, though. And it explains why no more Shards and Plates are made.

And regarding the difference between the raw material and the Plate/Blades, I think it maybe because we haven't seen the TRUE raw materials yet. And as the book evinced,

They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see.

The parshmen are voidbringers

, albeit not yet in their fully active forms. This means that there are a lot of transformation between here and there. The thickness and the hardness of the raw materials could be one of these. If they could change from humanoid into colossal crustacean, why not the thickness and hardness of their carapaaces too?

Also, you pointed out the difference between the their Shardbearer and the Alethi. Can you elaborate why it contradicts my theory? I want to know what I'm missing.

Edited by anthonydraco
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My point was just that if their carapace IS shardplate then there would't be any parshendi sharbearers, or rather all of them would be.

I still think that, considering their carapaces are quite a bit lighter than steel and that shard plate cannot even by used without the enhanced strength it provides, that their carapace would either need to grow heavier (why) or the shardplate would need to be made of VERY thick carapace. Also if they grew into the next stage where it's thicker then it would no longer be able to fit men.

Edited by Voidus
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I think your point can still be partially explained by the same explanation as above. So far we see the voidbringers as parshmen and the Parshendi, and we see the differences. There must be a trigger to their transformations. (Which I think are the songs and their collective mind and their psychic properties.) The reason why they don't all own Shardplates and Blades could be the same reason why parshmen are not Parshendi, and why the Parshendi are not colossal crustacean yet: They're still waiting for appropriate triggers before they develop. Like fox fur turning white in winter. In the voidbringers' case, it's the Desolation, which is coming in the next book.

Also, animals that live in hive tends to have ranks within themselves, like queen, drone, soldier. The raw materials for Plates and Blades might come from specialized type of voidbringers.

As for thickness, we don't know yet the extent of their transformations. What you said make sense, but I think you assume that when their carapaces are thicker, the voidbringers that grow them must be bigger as well. But we don't know that. If they could grow thicker and heavier carapaces, they could probably grow stronger supporting structures inside as well, while still retaining their approximate size. Crustacean is again a good example. A newly molted crab have thin chitin, even edible, as opposed to a crab with fully developed carapace. They're roughly the same size, and one is only slightly bigger than the other. All in all, I think the voidbringer that grow all-covering armour can still remain humanoid. Besides, a set of armour must be bigger than men, or they wouldn't be wearable. And when they process the materials, it's very likely that they temper the materials and tailor them as well?

Edited by anthonydraco
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I think the biggest problem is that the Plate seems to be made entirely of metal, not bone or horn. Also, there's no sign of nerves or blood-vessels, so how do its organic functions work?

Furthermore, the Parshendi have not shown the power to mutate into chasmfiends, which is what was in the picture.

Edited by ReaderAt2046
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And I think someone almost certainly would have noticed if it was made of the same material, there are plenty of shardbearers on the plains.

Also we see shardblades killing them with just as much ease as anything else, if their carapace was essentially just thinner shardplate then I think there would be some resistance.

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Welcome anthonydraco, and thank you for an interesting theory.

The parshendi are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma (apologies to W. Churchill). The Voidbringers are not much more clear.

Unfortunately for me, I have trouble with some aspects of the theory. The Voidbringers are said to consume, be accompanied by the screams of those they have consumed, possess people, make music when they kill and be marked with ash and fire. The parshendi jumping ability is explained by their musclature and they only meet the last two attributes. As you point out, however, they can change.

Their intricate weapons are decorated with images of the heralds, their shardbearer talks to Dalinar when he could have easily killed him and their behavior seems honorable in some ways. Overall, they seem as half-hearted about the war as the Alethi, indicating either a similarly incoherent political situation or some strange testing relationship. None of these seem to fit for Voidbringers, who I imagine as ruthless and ravening, like the Midnight Essence. If the Voidbringers have the ability to possess creatures, I can easily see them taking over chasmfiends and desolating away, but that doesn't make chasmfiends Voidbringers.

The biggest problem for me is that many Desolations are fought off before the Radiants are formed: no Shardblades or Shardplate. Radiants show up: Shardblades and Shardplate. So, fighting off or killing Voidbringers, even with a Herald wielding an Honorblade, does not get you Shardblades and plate.

My conclusion is that the Radiants, as they advanced in their training, figured out how to take advantage of Honor's existence and the relationship with the spren to create the Shards. Why they didn't share their knowledge is definitely an interesting question. As I understand the timeline, the Radiants were formed during Nohadon's lifetime, and after the desolation. The Heralds would have departed immediately following the Desolation, so they couldn't have given the Radiants the shards, as the Radiants weren't formed at the time of Dalinar's vision. (of course, my working assumption is that the visions are reliable. Without that, I know nothing.)

What do you think?

Edited by hoser
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I think the biggest problem is that the Plate seems to be made entirely of metal, not bone or horn. Also, there's no sign of nerves or blood-vessels, so how do its organic functions work?

Furthermore, the Parshendi have not shown the power to mutate into chasmfiends, which is what was in the picture.

Yes, at first, I thought they were metalic too. But after the second read, I don't think so anymore. There's no direct statement at all in the book saying what material they were. Also notice the words that accompany them. Shard, shattered, cracks [raced long the helm like a spiderweb.] These words are for materials that could 'break,' and 'shatter.' Metals tear, twist, bend, and break, hardly crack or shatter. But the words seem to indicate the materials that are fragile and crystaline in nature. They could also 'regrow' the Plates using Stormlight. That's another biological property. Dalinar thought about that when he lost the a piece of the plate.

Also, have you ever look closely at a crab's shell? There's no blood vessels in them. And I would like to remind you a bit on biology. Humans have blood vessels in their skin, but they are only capilaries. Major vessels are deeper inside. Things are the same for crustaceans. Major vessels are deeper, protected. Chitinous shells have no major apparent vessels. Crabs molt. Which means their shells are expendable. No major visible vessels should be in them except capillaries. And crustaceans have open blood curcuit. Which means no capillaries. You won't see any vessels. And nerves can't always be seen. Your entire body can be innervated even though major nerves aren't apparent. Nerve endings are everywhere in your body, but can't be seen in/on your skin. The armor is obviously external, like skin. No apparent sign of nerves in it doesn't mean they don't exist. Not that I insist that the plates have nerves. It just can't be proven either way. But allowing bearers to feel outside the Plate requires nerve transmission to an extent, or at least, impulse transmission.

Also, regarding the mutation into the chasmfiend. Kindly read that scene again. The scene when Jasnah wrote Dalinar, and Shallan drew that pic for them. Adolin observed that it wasn't a chasmfiend. Similar, but not exactly right.

And, 'have not seen the mutation' doesn't mean 'will not.' WE haven't. But someone did. There are observations collected by Jasnah. I've just quoted it in my previous post. They can change. People have seen them. And there's a hidden trigger, which I believe is the Desolation or something in it.

And I think someone almost certainly would have noticed if it was made of the same material, there are plenty of shardbearers on the plains.

Also we see shardblades killing them with just as much ease as anything else, if their carapace was essentially just thinner shardplate then I think there would be some resistance.

I haven't thought about your first point. But you're right. That's entirely possible. But my point is, we don't know the extent of their transformation, how much different from their current state, how much thicker their shells could be. Newly molted crabs are even entirely edible, while the fully grown ones aren't. Same base materials could produce very different end results given time and different process. The end results could be very different, very durable.

Also keep in mind that even IF the parshmen's armor can't mutate that far into Shardplates/Blades, the process of making the Shards must require tempering at some point. The magic could strengthen a soft biological materials into something greater.

Unfortunately for me, I have trouble with some aspects of the theory. The Voidbringers are said to consume, be accompanied by the screams of those they have consumed, possess people, make music when they kill and be marked with ash and fire.

You caught something I've missed. Thank you. Well, I haven't really thought about the screams of those they consumed, and we haven't seen it yet, IIRC. I've missed the part they say they can take over bodies/consume too. But we have seen (or rather read about) their music already. They sang while they fought. I can point you out to many scenes in which they did. The scene when Kaladin used their bones as bait certainly mentioned their music. Marked with ash and fire, we have seen that too. They are dark, marbled with red. Their very description in the first chapter.

Their intricate weapons are decorated with images of the heralds, their shardbearer talks to Dalinar when he could have easily killed him and their behavior seems honorable in some ways. Overall, they seem as half-hearted about the war as the Alethi, indicating either a similarly incoherent political situation or some strange testing relationship. None of these seem to fit for Voidbringers, who I imagine as ruthless and ravening, like the Midnight Essence. If the Voidbringers have the ability to possess creatures, I can easily see them taking over chasmfiends and desolating away, but that doesn't make chasmfiends Voidbringers.

These are the things I've missed. Good point. We can only wait and find out.

The biggest problem for me is that many Desolations are fought off before the Radiants are formed: no Shardblades or Shardplate. Radiants show up: Shardblades and Shardplate. So, fighting off or killing Voidbringers, even with a Herald wielding an Honorblade, does not get you Shardblades and plate.
This, I can disprove. Kindly read the prologue again. After Kalak returned to their meeting point and talk to Jezrien, he looked at their blades and thought 'they were even more powerful than Shardblades,' which means the Blades existed by then. He looked at his followers too, and there are description and hints of Plates. The latter might be wrong, but the Blades already existed before the Radiants

P.S. Sorry for the wall of text. I just have good reasons to support my theory. Well, maybe not good, but I think I check things through before proposing my theory.

Edited by anthonydraco
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The problem with this theory would be:

Mixing up pure awesomeness of the process of creating rare magical items with the process of mere biological mutation.

Don't know about you, but I like the first process !

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Hmm, but then, they can be both. Magic could be the very thing that can make the Parshendi's armor Shards.

In your case we may end up having with thousands of shardblades. Not good. I like my artifacts being very rare.

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Magic isn't in Roshar anymore.

'While magic still existed in Roshar and honor in the hearts of men.'

I'm fairly certain that is just a poetic way of explaining that Surgebinders vanished for a while. If you think about it, there's penty of magic on Roshar. Off the top of my head there's spren, fabrials, Shardplate,Shardblades, Kaladin the Windrunner, and Jasnah and Shallan who are in other Orders that haven't been explicitly confirmed yet. Brandon has said he purposely wrote TWoK to have the magic in the background a little bit, and not a huge plot focus.

In response to your theory, I personally doubt it, no offense to you. There were many Voidbringers in the Desolations. You use the Prelude for evidence, but not everyone is using Plate and Blade. Shouldn't there be an abundant supply? My belief has always been that a Radiant's Plate and Blade were personal to them, and manifested when they were completely indoctrinated into their Order after speaking the 5 Oaths. However, you are completely entitle to your own opinion, and it's nice to get a different perspective on where Plate and Blade come from.

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...

This, I can disprove. Kindly read the prologue again. After Kalak returned to their meeting point and talk to Jezrien, he looked at their blades and thought 'they were even more powerful than Shardblades,' which means the Blades existed by then. He looked at his followers too, and there are description and hints of Plates. The latter might be wrong, but the Blades already existed before the Radiants.

Hmm, interesting. I appreciate your openness to my disagreeing post. I don't accept your disproof in this instance, as I believe the prologue follows the formation of the Radiants.

I understand the timeline to include:

Desolations + heralds

Nohadon vision

formation of radiants

creation of Urithiru

Nohadon creates way of kings

Desolations + heralds + radiants (includes Midnight Essence vision)

prologue vision = Aharietam = supposed Last Desolation = 9 heralds walk away from oathpact

Evidence That the prologue follows the formation of the Radiants quoted from the prologue:

Kalak turned and walked to the side, ... There were so many corpses, and among them walked the living. Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads. Juxtaposed between them were others in gleaming plate armor. One group walked past, four men in their ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather joining a powerful figure in beautiful silver plate, amazingly intricate. Such a contrast.

Jezrien stepped up beside him.

"They see us as divinities," Kalak whispered. "They rely upon us , Jezrien. We're all that they have."

"They have the Radiants. That will be enough."

I have other arguments for believing that the Radiants existed before the prologue, but don't want to waste anybody's time if this is already convincing. Am I missing something? What do people think?

Interestingly, in the prologue there is "Blood mixed. Red. Violet. Orange. Though none of the bodies around him stirred, an indistinct haze of sounds hung in the air. Moans of pain, cries of grief." The orange blood could be parshendi, although I am not sure that the parshendi are the only beings on the planet with orange blood. If there was quiet singing amongst the moans of pain, that might suggest that the parshendi had fought with the heralds, since the heralds, radiants and allies would have likely finished off any enemy before cleaning up the battlefield. The lack of singing suggests, but doesn't prove, to me that the parshendi fought with the forces of Odium. I am not convinced which side the parshendi will end up on. I definitely think Brandon will lead us a merry chase on this one.

I found some evidence on the question of whether Shardplate is metal. In chapter 52, the Recreance vision, when the Radiants are removing the Shardplate:

The others began to follow suit. Hundreds of men and women, driving Shardblades into the stone and then removing their Plate. The sound of metal hitting stone came like rain. Then like thunder.
This description is from Dalinar's viewpoint, who would know whether Shardplate is metal.

In chapter 58, when Adolin is dueling and Dalinar is quoting the way of kings, Adolin's opponent's

thigh plate shattered with the sound of ripping metal, pieces blasting away, trailing smoke, glowing like molten steel.

In chapter 13, fighting the chasmfiend:

Dalinar held back the claw and matched it's strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. ... The Plate of Dalinar's gauntlets and shoulders began to crack, webs of light moving down the ancient metal.

I hope this helps.

Edited: Added chapter 13 quote.

Edited by hoser
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There were many Voidbringers in the Desolations. You use the Prelude for evidence, but not everyone is using Plate and Blade.

I used it as an evidence saying that the Shards existed in during the prologue. I thought that the Radiants came after the prologue. And evidently, I was mistaken.

Shouldn't there be an abundant supply?

Now that you mentioned it. Hmm, you're right. If there are a large number of voidbringers, there must be abundant supply of the Blades and Plates. BUT... that must mean the materials required for the Plates/Blades can be gathered from any or most voidbringers. They could be only from specific types, like a queen. The voidbringers/parshendi seem to have a hive mind, and seem to live like eusocial animals, like bees.

My belief has always been that a Radiant's Plate and Blade were personal to them, and manifested when they were completely indoctrinated into their Order after speaking the 5 Oaths.

What an interesting idea. I actually like it. Although it's a little too extreme to think that oaths can manifest as armor. I would believe that 5 Oaths give power. Kaladin and Dalinar did gain it in the last chapters. But power is still quite metaphysical. But to get armour from it? That leans toward the very, very extreme physical side to me. How could an oath manifest solid?

Hmm, interesting. I appreciate your openness to my disagreeing post. I don't accept your disproof in this instance, as I believe the prologue follows the formation of the Radiants.

You got me. I thought I was thorough already about the timeline. I wasn't thorough enough. You're right. 'They have the Radiants' is a dead giveaway. But this only proves that you're right about the timeline, about the Radiants existing before the prologue. But it doesn't prove that the available materials for Shards and Plates can't be from voidbringers. So far, the evidence at the founding of the Radiants are very limited, and the evidence of the Plates and Blades at/before that time is limited too. The Shards could come before or after. But even after, maybe it was because the Radiants were the first who came up with the ideas of using the materials. Or the Radiants and the Shards could come at the same time, but they're two seperated incidents entirely. We can both still be right.
I found some evidence on the question of whether Shardplate is metal. In chapter 52, the Recreance vision, when the Radiants are removing the Shardplate: This description is from Dalinar's viewpoint, who would know whether Shardplate is metal.

Nice find. But the second quote is more like a description. 'Like metal ripping' doesn't always mean it's metal. I think the first quote is more conclusive that it's somewhat metallic. The defense for my theory is that there's still the extent of transformation on the parshmen part, and tempering process on human part, both we have yet to see.

Edited by anthonydraco
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Also, I may be willing to accept that the plate comes from the Parshendi (Unlikely but then with the cosmere you can never be certain :P) but at the very least I seriously doubt that the Blades could be made of it, especially with the vanishing and summoning trick.

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...But to get armour from it? That leans toward the very, very extreme physical side to me. How could an oath manifest solid?

...So far, the evidence at the founding of the Radiants are very limited, and the evidence of the Plates and Blades at/before that time is limited too. The Shards could come before or after. But even after, maybe it was because the Radiants were the first who came up with the ideas of using the materials. Or the Radiants and the Shards could come at the same time, but they're two seperated incidents entirely. We can both still be right.

I agree completely, I have not refuted your fundamental theory. As I understand it, you claim that the parshendi are voidbringers and their carapace is used in making Shardplate. I theorize, but cannot prove, that some combination of Radiant, Honor, spren, metal and gem is used to create Shardplate. Carapace could also be used, or even converted to metal, and we could be violently agreeing.

Your theory is much more interesting than my loony parshendi theory, which is that they are native to Roshar and the carapace is an adaptation to the highstorms. The parshmen could be from Shinovar, but I can't explain their passivity.

I believe that Brandon does tell us some of how Shardplate works. In chapter 26, Dalinar is armoring up:

... Next, they set the sabatons - armor for his boots ... had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rock. The interiors glowed with the light of the sapphires in their indented pockets.
It seems uncoincidental (probably not a real word) that the windrunner ability "cling to rock" is paired with the windrunner gems (sapphires). This conceivably could support a connection between the Radiant abilities and the Shardplate that Windrunner suggests.

Anyway, I look forward to learning more from your theorizing, until the next book comes out and I learn that most of my theories are wrong. Then we can start again with new mysteries.

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