Taking a Step Back: Speculation on the History of Roshar

[treblkickd]

Warning: This is a pretty long post, built on a foundation of rambling speculation.

We are only about 10% of the way through the 10 book SA, so unknowns are going to naturally outweigh the knowns (especially after accounting for Brandon's tendency to backload the revelatory information). With this in mind, there are a few big questions that are rattling around in my brain:

Q1: How did Roshar become the way that it is?

I'm thinking specifically here about it's very peculiar flora/fauna situation (plants/animals adapted to highstorms), which is emphasized by the presence of Shinovar and it's Earth-like qualities. It seems unlikely that the highstorm-specific life on Roshar is the result of natural Darwinian processes of evolution, because that would require many millions of years to take place, and there is no indication of such a timescale lapse between the shattering of Adonalsium and the books that we're reading. We've also seen (in Mistborn) a blatant example of shard-based powers creating a world with an ecology that is deliberately altered relative to what you find on Earth, and so it's easy to imagine a similar invocation of power to sculpt life of Roshar so that it can survive the highstorms.

If one assumes that life on Roshar was sculpted to deal with the highstorms, then this raises the question of where the highstorms came from. They are almost certainly tied to much of the magic on Roshar (specifically via stormlight, which powers surgebinding), and there are numerous clues that suggest that highstorms are at least partially related to Honor (e.g., stormlight powers the surgebinding used by the Knights Radiant, the king of Heralds of the Almighty is called "Stormfather"), though it's hard to say anything beyond stating that there is some sort of connection there.

Somewhat along the same line of thought, there seems to be significant physical variation between the different kinds of humans (or human-like beings) that live on Roshar. We see everything from exotic eye color (purple, red, etc) to something that sounds like nation-wide varicose veins (the people of Babatharnam), blue-tinted skin (the people of Natanatan), super long eyebrows that get tucked behind the ears (Thaylen merchant interlude), and of course Axies the Collector's peoples' blue nails and crystaline blue eyes (not to mention casting a shadow the wrong way ?!?) - just to name a few. So where did these distinctly different peoples come from? If one were prone to wild speculation, one might suggest that different peoples can be traced back to the 10 Silver Kingdoms, but we know so little about the Silver Kingdoms that such speculation isn't especially useful.

Ah, and one other thought re: different kinds of people on Roshar: Jasnah mentions, in Ch 72 while talking to Shallan about soulcasting, that there are "eight kinds of blood". The opening Kalak PoV mentions red, orange, and violet blood (human, parshendi/parshman, and greatshell? I know that parsh* and chasmfiend innards are specifically described in WoK, but don't have the means to find specific references now), but then again Jasnah could just be talking about something as mundane as the eight different types of human blood (i.e. A,B,AB,O - all positive or negative).

Q2: Who are the Heralds, and where did they come from?

Could the Heralds have origins from the time/place when/where Adonalsium was shattered? Certainly the Heralds are very peculiar individuals, with a lot of power (there's a Brandon quote to this effect, I believe?) and a much deeper understanding of what's going on on Roshar than the people who are clearly natives (this much is clear from Kalak's PoV in the start). They know something about what the Oathpact is, at least enough to hypothesize about the implications of their actions.

There's other potentially corroborative evidence in something that Hoid says to Kaladin in Ch 57 (the same one where he gives Kaladin his flute), "I've come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead." What acquaintance could Hoid be talking about? It could be the addressee of the Letter (epigraphs for Ch 12-28), except that the letter specifically addresses "my old friend", and friend != acquaintance (this would be very sloppy use of language if they are the same individual). I think there's at least an even chance that this "acquaintance" is one of the Heralds. Hoid also refers to Talenel as "my confused, unfortunate friend" at the very end of WoK, which could suggest that Hoid is personally acquainted with the Heralds.

Now, there are plenty of ways that Hoid - as a planet hopper - could know the Heralds personally without the Heralds themselves dating back to the shattering of Adonalsium. That said, the Heralds are clearly one of the oldest and most Comsere-knowledgable groups of people on Roshar (likely on any Cosmere planet, actually).

Tying this question to Q1 above and turning speculation up to 11, one could suggest that the 10 Heralds were the leaders of 10 peoples who fled from various places/other planets, and settled together on Roshar to make a stand against Odium/the Voidbringers.

Q3: Can we say anything useful about the mysterious figures described in the "Heraldic Epochs" of Roshar?

Beyond just the Heralds, the mysterious figures I'm referring to here includes the "Dawnsingers", and sort-of-maybe also the Voidbringers. When Shallan is talking to Kabsal in Ch 45 about the Voidbringers, she also asks about the Dawnsingers. Kabsal describes them as "healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty to care for humans one we were forces out of the Tranquiline Halls". Shallan reinterprets this is "Kind of the opposite of the Voidbringers", to which Kabsal replies, "I suppose you could say that."

Now, we know that Kabsal is some kind of assassin/agent for one of the secret groups that is operating in opposition to Jasnah (and presumably the Veristitalians?) - possibly the Ghostbloods (well, probably the Ghostbloods, given that SA is a closed story with finite narrative space). As a Ghostblood (or similar), it would make sense for Kabsal to have access to knowledge about the ancient lore of Roshar that is at leasted based in truth, and is therefore a useful source of nuggets of information that truthfully reflect the very old history of Roshar. Now, Kabsal could just be talking out of his chull or lying to Shallan, but considering that he seems to genuinely like Shallan and never seems to consider her much of a threat, it's also entirely possible that he's being forthright - if circumspect - with what he says here.

One other really good piece of information that we get about the Voidbringers comes from one of Dalinar's flashbacks, Ch 19, when he fights the "Midnight Essence" and fights alongside a Windrunner and a Stonewarden. He asks those two KR specifically if what they fought were Voidbringers, and the response from the KR is, "The knight sniffed dismissively, 'Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery'". The dismissive sniff is indication that whatever Voidbringers are, they are pretty bad dudes (Dalinar thinks of the Midnight Essence as pretty tough, i.e. not a pushover to fight).

So brining this back to the Dawnsingers and Voidbringers - what could those be? Possibly the Dawnsingers are the Heralds? Or possibly they are the honor-spren (and similar) that grant surgebinding powers? If this second guess were true, then maybe Voidbringers are the equivalent spren or spren-like things that grant Voidbinding powers?

I'm at a loss for more speculation at this point, but I do feel that anything that we can reconstruct about Roshar's past provides a valuable framework for understanding what's happening in the Stormlight Archive books.

[Vortaan]

Random speculation... what if the Dawnsingers and the Voidbringers are BOTH Parshendi/parshmen? The difference between Parshendi and parshmen seems to be that the Parshendi make music. In fact, didn't they ask Gavilar where the parshmen's music was? Perhaps this lack of music is what allows Odium to master them. Considering how well the Parshendi fight, and the strange honor in battle they seem to show, I would imagine a force of them without honor, just as a ravaging horde could be BIG trouble. If they can do something similar to Surgebinding as well, that would be deadly. Consider that the Parshendi seem to have Soulcasting, since that is the theory on how they are supplying themselves. Soulcasting seems to be tied to Honor, and the Parshendi do seem to act with Honor. The parshmen seem to have no real intent to any of their actions... perhaps because Odium hasn't given them one yet?

[Aiken Frost]

Random speculation... what if the Dawnsingers and the Voidbringers are BOTH Parshendi/parshmen? The difference between Parshendi and parshmen seems to be that the Parshendi make music. In fact, didn't they ask Gavilar where the parshmen's music was? Perhaps this lack of music is what allows Odium to master them. Considering how well the Parshendi fight, and the strange honor in battle they seem to show, I would imagine a force of them without honor, just as a ravaging horde could be BIG trouble. If they can do something similar to Surgebinding as well, that would be deadly. Consider that the Parshendi seem to have Soulcasting, since that is the theory on how they are supplying themselves. Soulcasting seems to be tied to Honor, and the Parshendi do seem to act with Honor. The parshmen seem to have no real intent to any of their actions... perhaps because Odium hasn't given them one yet?

Of course! Dawnsingers! It makes complete sense! I'm liking this theory already. Maybe the reason for the Parshendi "betrayal" was to attract as much Alethi fighting force and population to the Shattered Plains before the next desolation, when the Parshmen are going to go berserk with Odium's influence. The Plains will become the bastion of the Alethi people, already used to fight and all but actively live in there. When the Parshmen/Voidbringers come, they will find a battle-ready, trained and fortified people backed by the Parshendi/Dawnsingers in a territory that they basically mastered in warfare!

Tell me about random speculation!

Edited January 7, 2012 by Aiken Frost

[Odium's_Shard]

I... love it!

It makes such complete sense that I am at this moment above to cry for lack of sight in this area.

I am going to break down your post and give additional evidence.

The parshmen seem to have no real intent to any of their actions... perhaps because Odium hasn't given them one yet?

So they are just like blank people set to auto-pilot? This would make sense. Odium gives a single command and hazaar army of malicious fighters set in place all over the globe.

So I propose that the Parshendi can Surgebind, or at least know of it. This would make sense when considering everything we know about them. When Kaladin uses the Reverse Lashing (extremely obviously) all Parshendi that see it immediately cry out and stop attacking. This could mean they fear him, as I always assumed, or that they revere him.

The Parshendi Shardbearer who fights Dalinar realises that he is connected to Honour and says:

You are the one. I have found you.

in perfect Alethi. This... please, post this theory Vortaan, then I can espouse it officially!

Until then, let it be known that I completely endorse this theory, and am upset that I cannot upvote it twice, if not thrice.

Genius...

[Windrunner]

I'm thinking specifically here about it's very peculiar flora/fauna situation (plants/animals adapted to highstorms), which is emphasized by the presence of Shinovar and it's Earth-like qualities. It seems unlikely that the highstorm-specific life on Roshar is the result of natural Darwinian processes of evolution, because that would require many millions of years to take place, and there is no indication of such a timescale lapse between the shattering of Adonalsium and the books that we're reading. We've also seen (in Mistborn) a blatant example of shard-based powers creating a world with an ecology that is deliberately altered relative to what you find on Earth, and so it's easy to imagine a similar invocation of power to sculpt life of Roshar so that it can survive the highstorms.

I do agree with you that the is no way the Roshar got the way it is through evolution, but I don't think life was altered by a Shard. I think that Roshar was probably, always like it is now. A recent interview with Brandon indicates that it is humans and horses who aren't native to Roshar, not the other way around. I see Shinovar as a kind of cradle for human refugees from Honor's shardworld, the Tranquiline Halls, after humanity was driven out by the Voidbringers. Cultivation probably created it to help get people used to this strange world.

Could the Heralds have origins from the time/place when/where Adonalsium was shattered? Certainly the Heralds are very peculiar individuals, with a lot of power (there's a Brandon quote to this effect, I believe?) and a much deeper understanding of what's going on on Roshar than the people who are clearly natives (this much is clear from Kalak's PoV in the start). They know something about what the Oathpact is, at least enough to hypothesize about the implications of their actions.

The only useful thing I have to say about this is that I think the Heralds were originally just humans. Shallan talks a bit about Heraldic mythology, and speaks of something called Proving Day, where the people who became Heralds were set seemingly impossible tasks. This could all just be false though.

"I've come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead." What acquaintance could Hoid be talking about?

The second I read this quote I thought Odium/Rayse. We know Hoid had a grudge against Rayse and Bavidan, which would explain why he said acquaintance, not friend. My personal theory on Hoid's goals is that he is trying to defeat Odium, in this vast interplanetary war. This would explain why he was on Roshar, he came to try to defeat Odium, but is spending most of his time trying to hide and stay unobtrusive, until he's ready to challenge Odium.

[treblkickd]

Well, the Parsh* as both Dawnsingers and Voidbringers is certainly out there, as far as ideas go! I'm not sure it really addresses the question of what the term "Dawnsingers" really means in this world; I think we would learn a lot of about what's going on in Roshar by understanding what (if any) interrelations exist between the Dawnsingers, the Dawnshards, and the Heralds.

I can totally imagine a scenario where the Parshendi/Parshmen are the native race to Roshar, and humans are more of a refugee race. But the thing with Roshar in it's current state is that the highstorms are really the driving force behind the way that life is lived, and the highstorms are very very odd. Brandon tends to set his stories on worlds that are physically plausible in a physics+magic kind of way (i.e. preserve basic physics and add some magic), and in order for something like the highstorms to exist in that kind of setting you need some sort of persistent and powerful magical effect to drive the storms (especially considering that the storms carry stormlight with them, effectively recharging the batteries for magic-users). So looking at the big picture of how Roshar works meteorologically and ecologically, it just seems like you need some serious captial-S Shard type power to drive things.

Edited January 8, 2012 by treblkickd

[Vortaan]

Well, the Parsh* as both Dawnsingers and Voidbringers is certainly out there, as far as ideas go! I'm not sure it really addresses the question of what the term "Dawnsingers" really means in this world; I think we would learn a lot of about what's going on in Roshar by understanding what (if any) interrelations exist between the Dawnsingers, the Dawnshards, and the Heralds.

I can totally imagine a scenario where the Parshendi/Parshmen are the native race to Roshar, and humans are more of a refugee race. But the thing with Roshar in it's current state is that the highstorms are really the driving force behind the way that life is lived, and the highstorms are very very odd. Brandon tends to set his stories on worlds that are physically plausible in a physics+magic kind of way (i.e. preserve basic physics and add some magic), and in order for something like the highstorms to exist in that kind of setting you need some sort of persistent and powerful magical effect to drive the storms (especially considering that the storms carry stormlight with them, effectively recharging the batteries for magic-users). So looking at the big picture of how Roshar works meteorologically and ecologically, it just seems like you need some serious captial-S Shard type power to drive things.

I agree that the Parsh in general being the Dawnsingers doesn't tell us much about what's going on in Roshar except for one thing: it gives a valid reason for the war on the Shattered Plains AND their possession of blades/plate. I think I will write up a theory on it later, but suffice to say that if the Parsh ARE the Dawnsingers, they had a huge impact on the way humans live on Roshar. It would almost seem that any Dawnsinger candidate has to be linked to either Honor or Cultivation, or possibly both.

As to the big bad powering the highstorms, an idea I've had is that both Honor and Odium's Shardpools are on Roshar, and they are both located at the Origin. the conflict between the two is what causes Highstorms. The reason Shinovar is more Earth-like is that Cultivation's Shardpool is there, and serves as a natural buffer against the powers of Odium and Honor, much like a mountain range affects weather patterns.

[Eri]

I can totally imagine a scenario where the Parshendi/Parshmen are the native race to Roshar, and humans are more of a refugee race.

I think this would be first case of humans not being the original race. On other planets the Shards (being sort of human themselves) created humans and (minor Mistborn spoiler)

the only other inteligent species we've seen before were humans who were changed using Shardic power.

I've seen someone talking about dragons, but it refers to an unpublished book so I don't know if they are an exception.

But you may be right even if humans are always the default race — Parsh* were humans, got changed gor some reason into what they are now, and then humans from (the Silence Divine planet?) arrived. Or the other way around, maybe — Parsh* as the newcomers on Roshar.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think this would be first case of humans not being the original race. On other planets the Shards (being sort of human themselves) created humans and (minor Mistborn spoiler)

the only other inteligent species we've seen before were humans who were changed using Shardic power.

I've seen someone talking about dragons, but it refers to an unpublished book so I don't know if they are an exception.

But you may be right even if humans are always the default race — Parsh* were humans, got changed gor some reason into what they are now, and then humans from (the Silence Divine planet?) arrived. Or the other way around, maybe — Parsh* as the newcomers on Roshar.

See The Most Baseless Parshendi Theory Ever which practically argues exactly what you just said, making this entirely possible.

[ReaderAt2046]

Since we never see a Herald using Surgebinding, is it possible that the Dawnsingers were ten immortal, super-powerful surgebinders who fought beside the Heralds?

[Windrunner]

Another alternate take on that. I recently read that Jezrien is not a Sliver. Presumably this is true of the other nine Heralds as well. So I'm thinking they got to have access to a Splinter then to get their awesome powers. So my new theory is, the Dawnsingers are the super-spren the Heralds are bound to. Maybe one is Cuicesh the Protector from the interludes?

[Wispsy]

It would more be their swords are splinters or summit and bound to them tho right?

[Windrunner]

The answer to their power has to be more complex then just the Honorblades or their immortality would have been lost when they gave those up. I see the Honorblades as being more powerful shardblades, with special abilities.

[Aradel]

I agree that the Parsh in general being the Dawnsingers doesn't tell us much about what's going on in Roshar except for one thing: it gives a valid reason for the war on the Shattered Plains AND their possession of blades/plate. I think I will write up a theory on it later, but suffice to say that if the Parsh ARE the Dawnsingers, they had a huge impact on the way humans live on Roshar. It would almost seem that any Dawnsinger candidate has to be linked to either Honor or Cultivation, or possibly both.

Holymindblowi'vehadanapostrophe!

If the theory that the Parshendi are the Dawnsingers holds true, or even if they aren't the voidbringers I think they may be tied to Cultivation. They worship the casmfiends which cultivate gemhearts. They wear armor grown from their own skin. And what is more cultivating than music?

Anyways, just a thought. Their "betrayal" still makes no sense to me.

[Eri]

So my new theory is, the Dawnsingers are the super-spren the Heralds are bound to. Maybe one is Cuicesh the Protector from the interludes?

Very interesting. We don't know enough, but I support the idea of Cusi-what's-it's-name being bound or able to bind to a Herald, because he's like a spren, only biiiig.

[Odium's_Shard]

Holymindblowi'vehadanapostrophe!

If the theory that the Parshendi are the Dawnsingers holds true, or even if they aren't the voidbringers I think they may be tied to Cultivation. They worship the casmfiends which cultivate gemhearts. They wear armor grown from their own skin. And what is more cultivating than music?

Anyways, just a thought. Their "betrayal" still makes no sense to me.

If you mean the 'betrayal' of Aleth-kind, then allow me to explain.

They killed their king, who we propose they are actually fond of, in order to get him to regenerate (read the theory, this is a bit batty on its own) into the body of a Parshman and join the Parshendi ranks. This explains their fury over movement of the dead. He then (as a Parshendi) becomes one of their leaders, as in life, and then sets out to find Dalinar on the Shattered Plains. He does this, and does find him, cue the Parshendi Shardbearer in the battle for the Tower in which Sadeas betrayed him.

Secondly, they have dragged all of Alethkar onto the Plains. Most of the Alethi population eventually moved to the Plains. So, in the event of a destruction, in which the parshMEN (the True Voidbringers) turn on humanity, the Parshendi (and thus Alethkar) are in a position with infinite food (thanks to Soulcasters) and on a fighting terrain that they know well (as hunters of the Chasmfiends) in order to combat the coming horde.

Make sense?

[Aradel]

If you mean the 'betrayal' of Aleth-kind, then allow me to explain.

They killed their king, who we propose they are actually fond of, in order to get him to regenerate (read the theory, this is a bit batty on its own) into the body of a Parshman and join the Parshendi ranks. This explains their fury over movement of the dead. He then (as a Parshendi) becomes one of their leaders, as in life, and then sets out to find Dalinar on the Shattered Plains. He does this, and does find him, cue the Parshendi Shardbearer in the battle for the Tower in which Sadeas betrayed him.

Secondly, they have dragged all of Alethkar onto the Plains. Most of the Alethi population eventually moved to the Plains. So, in the event of a destruction, in which the parshMEN (the True Voidbringers) turn on humanity, the Parshendi (and thus Alethkar) are in a position with infinite food (thanks to Soulcasters) and on a fighting terrain that they know well (as hunters of the Chasmfiends) in order to combat the coming horde.

Make sense?

The theory does have merit, but I'm not convinced yet.

[ReaderAt2046]

If you mean the 'betrayal' of Aleth-kind, then allow me to explain.

Secondly, they have dragged all of Alethkar onto the Plains. Most of the Alethi population eventually moved to the Plains. So, in the event of a destruction, in which the parshMEN (the True Voidbringers) turn on humanity, the Parshendi (and thus Alethkar) are in a position with infinite food (thanks to Soulcasters) and on a fighting terrain that they know well (as hunters of the Chasmfiends) in order to combat the coming horde.

Make sense?

I believe this half is probably true.

[Windrunner]

I'm not convinced that killing King Gavilar would be the way to gain his trust. They already had a treaty why not just tell him the Voidbringers are coming? If I were murdered and resurrected by someone I thought to be an ally, not only would I be pissed, I'd never trust them again. What can Gavilar the Parshendi do that Gavilar the King, with a whole nation under his control could not?

[treblkickd]

I haven't been able to keep up with thread over the past week or so, but now I'd like to bring it back a little bit to one of the original questions posed: Who are the Heralds and from where do they originate?

My thinking is that they do not share an origin with the peoples of Roshar - they come from somewhere else.

There isn't a lot of direct evidence for this, but it holds together very well with the conversation (both content and tone) between Kalak and Jezrien in the opening scene of the books, where the Heralds seems to think of themselves as quite separate from the people fighting under them. There's also the very telling description of Baxil's mistress (almost certainly Shallash/Shash), who is described as having a strange mix of features that don't match up with any of the normal Rosharian people (similar to the way in which the 17th Sharders hunting Hoid are described).

Another interesting point related to this question has to do with the peoples of Roshar themselves. There seem to be multiple sub-races of humans on Roshar who Brandon goes out of his way to demonstrate as being physically quite different from one another. Examples include (but are not limited to):

• exotic eye color (purple, red, etc)
• something like nation-wide varicose veins (the people of Babatharnam)
• blue-tinted skin (the people of Natanatan)
• super long eyebrows that get tucked behind the ears (Thaylen merchant interlude)
• Axies the Collector's peoples' blue nails and crystaline blue eyes (not to mention casting a shadow the wrong way ?!?)

So what's that all about? There are other less extreme tendencies for different peoples (e.g., eye shape, height), and taking all of the above together Roshar looks more and more like some kind of Cosmere refugee camp.