Hazekilling

[Deus Ex Biotica]

The title says it all: in the Final Empire, Alloy of Law, or even modern times, what are some good countermeasures to take against various kinds of Misting and Ferring (or even Mistborn and Feruchemist)?

* I keep on coming back to Miles' boast that typing him up is the only way stop him. That's clearly not entirely true. What if you had a cleaver thicker than his neck? With a really good swing, you could take his head off, and he could not regenerate his neck through the metal. Since even The Lord Ruler would have died to beheading, I am sure he would, too.

* Likewise, what about a sharp but barbed spear, to nail him to something behind him? That would be harder to completely get rid of with dynamite (a Coinshot or Lurcher would make this extra unpleasant).

* In the modern day, white phosphorous would also be a good counter to Bloodmakers/Gold Compounders, since it would just keep on burning.

* If I were a noble in The Final Empire, I would think of an excuse for construction projects on the buildings near my estate, and bribe the workmen to put critically weakened ceilings on several of them. If my House had any Mistborn, they would know where these weaknesses lay, but anyone else's Mistborn snooping about would crash through, which is a serious detriment to stealth, and really embarrassing to boot.

* Come to think on it, flaming arrows might be useful for lighting Mistcloaks on fire.

* In Alloy of Law, they must already have the technology for strobe lights. Take that, Tineyes.

* Against an Atium-less Mistborn of any era, having most of your people attack with metal while one or two use obsidian/aluminum ranged weaponry could be a deadly bluff - all those blue lines will make it harder for the to pick out the one or two "invisible" projectiles, even if they do think to look for them. (I maintain that the Vanisher's final battle with Wax would have gone much more smoothly if most of them had not fired Aluminum, as he would have made the mistake of standing still more often.)

* If you don't have the money for an aluminum hat but really want to know when there's emotional Allomancy going on, try keeping an infant on hand, but out of sight. It will respond quickly and visibly to most emotional stimuli, which is useless if they just target you, but can be a great hint when someone Riots or Soothes the whole area.

What are your evil plans?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Cuaiir]

* In Alloy of Law, they must already have the technology for strobe lights. Take that, Tineyes.

Not necessarily, since strobe lights require both AC power and an electronic control. At the points that we've seen, everything with electricity is workable with only DC. I'll agree that it'll come along shortly, though, even if they don't have it now.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Vin's metal dust trick. It will be less effective than it was against Inquisitors, but it could still mess up Coinshots and Lurchers.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Not necessarily, since strobe lights require both AC power and an electronic control. At the points that we've seen, everything with electricity is workable with only DC. I'll agree that it'll come along shortly, though, even if they don't have it now.

Well, even with Direct Current, you could just have a really fast flickering shutter, right? That should mess them up properly, even it is less fun at parties.

And, yeah, Vin's tricks from the end of The Final Empire are pretty brutal - I always wondered why they weren't using them against the Inquisitors in Hero Of Ages.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Not necessarily, since strobe lights require both AC power and an electronic control. At the points that we've seen, everything with electricity is workable with only DC. I'll agree that it'll come along shortly, though, even if they don't have it now.

Oooh! Maybe on this world, Tesla will beat Edison, and we'll actually get some of his awesome inventions!

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Oooh! Maybe on this world, Tesla will beat Edison, and we'll actually get some of his awesome inventions!

I like to imagine that the Words Of Founding have a line which reads "alternating current is in every meaningful way the superior to direct current as soon as the technology to utilize it is available. Do not waste time on this. (Also, make sure all your famous inventors are really the ones inventing most of their claims.)"

[Aiken Frost]

Oooh! Maybe on this world, Tesla will beat Edison, and we'll actually get some of his awesome inventions!

The Death Ray! Yeeesssss. >=D

[Arcanist Lupus]

I like to imagine that the Words Of Founding have a line which reads "alternating current is in every meaningful way the superior to direct current as soon as the technology to utilize it is available. Do not waste time on this. (Also, make sure all your famous inventors are really the ones inventing most of their claims.)"

More likely, Edison was putting out his many patents, and then one misty night, a tall figure with iron spikes in his eyes appeared in Edison's house...

After that, he stopped putting out patents for things he didn't invent.

[name_here]

Vin's Final Empire tricks are more-or-less of the Only Works Once variety. The arrowheads worked because the Inquisitors instinctively Push on incoming metal projectiles, but Pulling them into a raised forearm would essentially negate the damage to an Inquisitor or even a Mistborn flaring pewter. A simple Push would clear out the metal dust.

Really, it seems like the biggest weakness of Mistborn and other Allomancers is their tendency towards complacency in combat situations. All of Vin's tricks work because they startle her opponents badly enough they freeze up for a quarter-second. Then they take a knife somewhere important.

Oh, one tip for Mistborn Hazekilling: Do not take metal into a fight with a Mistborn beyond what your Allomancers will use for any reason. Hazekillers with wooden/obsidian gear are horribly outmatched, people with metal on their bodies, even just a belt buckle, die more-or-less automatically.

[Cuaiir]

Oh, one tip for Mistborn Hazekilling: Do not take metal into a fight with a Mistborn beyond what your Allomancers will use for any reason. Hazekillers with wooden/obsidian gear are horribly outmatched, people with metal on their bodies, even just a belt buckle, die more-or-less automatically.

But if we go with a modern-day setting (read: second trilogy), then high-density plastics like those in riot shields and police batons can make a team of hazekillers roughly equal to a mistborn. It's likely this is how the SWAT team will take down the mistborn serial killer.

[Inkthinker]

The trick to beheading would be to separate the head and keep it separated. Someone compounding Gold like The Lord Ruler or Miles does can actually heal the wound almost instantly, the cut healing on one side while the blade is still slicing through the other.

As you say, you need a blade thicker than his neck (like a koloss blade, perhaps?) or you need a way to pull his head clean off at the same time you cut it.

I also wonder how badly a Gold compounder can be inadvertently deformed or mutilated, if the bits heal incorrectly. For instance, snapping bones that heal in incorrect positions. Or do the bones and such set into their proper place on their own, as some side effect of the process?

[IvoryRoad]

I think a pump-pressurized flamethrower could clear a room of coinshots, lurchers, tineyes, and pewterarms quite easily. I submit this as my defensive weapon of choice.

As for building defenses into my mansion, I think an absurdly powerful electromagnet beneath select parts of the floor would do nicely. Just imagine it: a misting with fresh metal reserves strolling confidently through the household. Then SLAP I hit the button and the metals in his belly are either ripped clean out or yank him through the floor. Either way, he is at my mercy.

Then I send in my specialized crack team of hazekillers, all of whom wear cool-looking plastic helmets(aluminum-lined, of course) with black jumpsuits, and are armed with shoulder-mounted flamethrowers and aluminum rotary guns.

No, they need a more menacing name. How about HAZESLAYERS? Or the MISTING MASSACRE-ERS.

I have yet to see the misting who can stand the might of a fully pressurized stream of flaming napalm in the face.

[happyman]

I have yet to see the misting who can stand the might of a fully pressurized stream of flaming napalm in the face.

Gold compounder?

[IvoryRoad]

Gold compounder?

I say again, misting. lol

And even so, it's all about consistency. How long can one gold compounder keep tapping/burning massive amounts of healing to constantly mend his melting face? I think when we consider their power, we tend to forget that they are only as powerful as their metal reserves.

Not to mention it'd be rather disorienting to keep getting blinded by liquid fire.

EDIT: I just remembered that Ranette said she was working on a hazekiller round for Bloodmakers, but it wasn't finished yet. Doubtful it could be effective against a compounder, but I'm quite interested to see what she comes up with.

Edited December 13, 2011 by IvoryRoad

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Complacency is huge, and almost inevitable when you have 8-32 superpowers. Mistborn fights are all about trying to mislead your opponent long enough to take them down (or who has the Atium, depending).

Hazekilling a Misting or Twinborn requires a more focused approach, since your foe is in the habit of approaching every situation with their power. Thus, you either want to mislead them (as thee Coinshot Rounds showed, Vin's trick works as well on a Misting as an Inquisitor), or presenting a situation they cannot easily answer with their powers:

* Against a Slider, try throwing a short-fused stick of dynamite. If they stop time before it gets there, then that will keep them thinking about the bomb, rather than how to attack you. If it lands inside their bubble, then they're really in a bind, since if they throw it out, it will probably still be close enough to get them in its blast when they drop the bubble. Either way, the bubble keeps them from easily escaping the blast. (Sure, they could pull the fuse, but it's hard to think that fast when you're used to people all being slowed down).

* Against a Thug, try using weapons coated in an anti-coagulant, then running away. With any luck, they won't notice they're bleeding until they've really exacerbated their wounds.

* If you have an area you want to keep Lurchers, Coinshots, and Mistborn out of, construct it using wooden pegs and stone nails (such building do exist in the real world), but with a few strategically placed pieces of metal which, when pushed/pulled, set off alarms, get shot off far from the building (so as to surprisingly provide no purchase as Anchors), and other nasty tricks.

* If you, like me, are terrified by the possibilities of Steelminds, set up rooms with movable floors (since their minds are not sped up to match), or hallways filled with razor-thin wire they might not see (but beware of Coishots cutting you with that wire). If you expect to meet them where you cannot control the place as much, bring buckets of tar, and coat the floor.

* Wax needing to deal with the chandelier before saving Wayne makes me think tht non-metal-fastened ropes just strung randomly around the ceiling of a large room would really cut don on how much advantage a Coinshot could take of it. Someone with an Ironmind might be able to climb them impressively, though.

* Here's an idea I'd like to pitch to Ranette: A Hazekiller gun similar to a LeMat, with one set of chambers that fire normal rounds, and an aluminum round in the extra barrel. When engaged, it fires both barrels at once, so that while your enemy smugly Pushes or Pulls the bullet, they don't realize you fired two until it's too late. This has the advantage of working just as well on Pullers as Pushers.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[IvoryRoad]

Complacency is huge, and almost inevitable when you have 8-32 superpowers. Mistborn fights are all about trying to mislead your opponent long enough to take them down (or who has the Atium, depending).

Hazekilling a Misting or Twinborn requires a more focused approach, since your foe is in the habit of approaching every situation with their power. Thus, you either want to mislead them (as thee Coinshot Rounds showed, Vin's trick works as well on a Misting as an Inquisitor), or presenting a situation they cannot easily answer with their powers:

* Against a Slider, try throwing a short-fused stick of dynamite. If they stop time before it gets there, then that will keep them thinking about the bomb, rather than how to attack you. If it lands inside their bubble, then they're really in a bind, since if they throw it out, it will probably still be close enough to get them in its blast when they drop the bubble. Either way, the bubble keeps them from easily escaping the blast. (Sure, they could pull the fuse, but it's hard to think that fast when you're used to people all being slowed down).

* Against a Thug, try using weapons coated in an anti-coagulant, then running away. With any luck, they won't notice they're bleeding until they've really exacerbated their wounds.

* If you have an area you want to keep Lurchers, Coinshots, and Mistborn out of, construct it using wooden pegs and stone nails (such building do exist in the real world), but with a few strategically placed pieces of metal which, when pushed/pulled, set off alarms, get shot off far from the building (so as to surprisingly provide no purchase as Anchors), and other nasty tricks.

* If you, like me, are terrified by the possibilities of Steelminds, set up rooms with movable floors (since their minds are not sped up to match), or hallways filled with razor-thin wire they might not see (but beware of Coishots cutting you with that wire). If you expect to meet them where you cannot control the place as much, bring buckets of tar, and coat the floor.

* Wax needing to deal with the chandelier before saving Wayne makes me think tht non-metal-fastened ropes just strung randomly around the ceiling of a large room would really cut don on how much advantage a Coinshot could take of it. Someone with an Ironmind might be able to climb them impressively, though.

* Here's an idea I'd like to pitch to Ranette: A Hazekiller gun similar to a LeMat, with one set of chambers that fire normal rounds, and an aluminum round in the extra barrel. When engaged, it fires both barrels at once, so that while your enemy smugly Pushes or Pulls the bullet, they don't realize you fired two until it's too late. This has the advantage of working just as well on Pullers as Pushers.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Or you could just set them on fire. Fire works great for pretty much everything.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

As you say, you need a blade thicker than his neck (like a koloss blade, perhaps?) or you need a way to pull his head clean off at the same time you cut it.

Finally, a legitimate use for the FLYING GUILLOTINE!

I think a pump-pressurized flamethrower could clear a room of coinshots, lurchers, tineyes, and pewterarms quite easily. I submit this as my defensive weapon of choice.

As for building defenses into my mansion, I think an absurdly powerful electromagnet beneath select parts of the floor would do nicely. Just imagine it: a misting with fresh metal reserves strolling confidently through the household. Then SLAP I hit the button and the metals in his belly are either ripped clean out or yank him through the floor. Either way, he is at my mercy.

I'm not sure there's an electromagnet strong enough to pick up a few metal flakes in someone's stomach, but that would be devastating against Ferrings.

And a stead spray of napalm is great, for as long as you can keep it up. It would be a little grim, living in your all-cement manor house (wood or plastics would get ruined by the napalm, and of course you're not using metal), but it's certainly a strong defense - Coinshots and Sliders could get some advantages to avoiding the stream, but even for them it would be a credible threat. I think your biggest hole is long-ranged attackers in general and Tineyes in particular, who just never come within napalm range. And when your biggest weakness is "smart people are too afraid to come close," your probably onto something.

I still don't think you're likely to beat a Gold Compounder this way, though. You'll run out of fuel before they run out of healing (fuel is why flamethrowers tend not to be practical weapons of war, along with the range limits). Also, it would take some work to make a flamethrower with no metal parts, though I guess there's always aluminum...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Kurkistan]

Or you could just set them on fire. Fire works great for pretty much everything.

Including buildings, friendlies, stray cats, the guy trying to wield the incredibly bulky and flammable flame thrower (think bullet to the tank). . .

Edited December 13, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Deus Ex Biotica]

...stray cats...

You of all people know that any good Hazekiller must be prepared to fight any and all stray cats they meet.

[IvoryRoad]

I'm not sure there's an electromagnet strong enough to pick up a few metal flakes in someone's stomach, but that would be devastating against Ferrings.

And a stead spray of napalm is great, for as long as you can keep it up. It would be a little grim, living in your all-cement manor house (wood or plastics would get ruined by the napalm, and of course you're not using metal), but it's certainly a strong defense - Coinshots and Sliders could get some advantages to avoiding the stream, but even for them it would be a credible threat. I think your biggest hole is long-ranged attackers in general and Tineyes in particular, who just never come within napalm range. And when your biggest weakness is "smart people are too afraid to come close," your probably onto something.

I still don't think you're likely to beat a Gold Compounder this way, though. You'll run out of fuel before they run out of healing (fuel is why flamethrowers tend not to be practical weapons of war, along with the range limits). Also, it would take some work to make a flamethrower with no metal parts, though I guess there's always aluminum...

We rich noble types need not worry about napalm ruining our nice furniture. We simply buy new stuff.

Any way you slice it, gold compounders are almost as annoying to kill as Wax's ability to shoot Miles' gun away, over and over.

I think the best you can hope for with a gold compounder, unless you've got a battle-axe or something is to neutralize them. I propose the floor-spikes... Sharpened fiberglass or plastic, or aluminum if you're rich like me, set pointing upward in a wide array over a certain area of floor. Activate the reversed polarity electro magnet (now with REPULSING action) to shoot them up through the specially prepared decoy floor, and impale the bloodmaker, hopefully immobilizing him and making it REALLY tough to heal himself, on account of the dirty great spikes poking up through his legs and chest. Gruesome, but effective, with the bonus of being really expensive. Heck, you might even be able to use them for hemalurgy afterward.

Dang it, WHY must everyone INSIST on denying me my flamethrowers? I just wanna have a bit of fun.

Let's not forget their practicality against door-to-door salesmen. It's only a matter of time before they begin corrupting the modernized Scadrial.

[Cuaiir]

Points about fiberglass and polyester resin - it's not flammable (though it will melt at 400+F) after it has cured, you can make that stuff in basically any form you want, and it's freaky sturdy. I'm making a few things out of this stuff right now, actually.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Cuaiir

[Kurkistan]

You of all people know that any good Hazekiller must be prepared to fight any and all stray cats they meet.

I take offense. The members of the Bold and Noble Organization which I have the Privilege to be a Founding Member of cannot and will never be mistaken for "stray cats." Also, any hazekiller would be too busy dying to even turn on his/her flamethrower to "fight" (ha!) a Catquisitor.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Points about fiberglass and polyester resin - it's not flammable (though it will melt at 400+F) after it has cured, you can make that stuff in basically any form you want, and it's freaky sturdy. I'm making a few things out of this stuff right now, actually.

I will make another: It's useless for Hemalurgy, since that art requires metal.

Also, it would be the odd flamethrower which does not reach 400F (Napalm burns at something like 1500F, or 800c for people who like real units), and it study, but probably too brittle to make good bladed weapons (certainly, I've seen plenty of sailboat rudders made of it snap in half).

Some sort of high-grade ceramics might avoid all these problems except the Feruchemy one, once available.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[name_here]

Uh, as Spook helpfully demonstrated in Hero Of Ages, fire does not work nearly as well on pewter burners as you might expect. Also, I'm pretty sure most designs include metal. And Aluminum and napalm mix burningly, so that's not a terribly helpful option.

[ReaderAt2046]

Ultimate anti-tineye weapon: opera singer

More seriously, an exploding bullet would be really good against lurchers. They pull it into their chestplate as usual and BOOOM!!!