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10 Magic types per Shard?


Kaurne

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I was rereading tWoK and suddenly remembered a snippet of WordofBrandon from before tWoK came out. This was (as far as I can remember it) something along the lines of 'Depending on how you interpret it, there will be up to 30 magic systems in the Stormlight Archive'.

When I noticed this, I thought about that number. It seems an oddly specific number to give - if there are that many, he could have just said 'several dozen' or some other vague number to convey the sense that there will be lots of magic systems (hell, he could have just said 'lots').

Now the first thing I did was subdivide 30 the most obvious way - into 3 and 10. Where have we seen those numbers before? 10, of course, plays a huge role on Roshar, and there were 10 orders of Knights Radiant and presumably 10 forms of Surgebinding. Yet the number 10 also seems to play a role on Roshar independent of simply the Knights and Surgebinding (and thus Honor).

And of course, there are three Shards on Roshar - Honor, Cultivation and Odium. So would it not make sense for each of the Shards on Roshar to have 10 magic systems of their own (assuming that we count all forms of Surgebinding as different). This makes so much sense to me that I can't see any arguments against it.

Though this does raise another intriguing question. I just read Featherwriter's thread about Honor being shattered like Adonalsium, and I thought Honor being shattered into 10 explained why the number 10 appeared so often in tWoK. But now, it appears that the number 10 is more connected to the fundamental workings of the Cosmere - for example, the 10 Core Shardworlds that Brandon recently mentioned. Interesting, no?

Edited by Kaurne
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I was rereading tWoK and suddenly remembered a snippet of WordofBrandon from before tWoK came out. This was (as far as I can remember it) something along the lines of 'Depending on how you interpret it, there will be up to 30 magic systems in the Stormlight Archive'.

When I noticed this, I thought about that number. It seems an oddly specific number to give - if there are that many, he could have just said 'several dozen' or some other vague number to convey the sense that there will be lots of magic systems (hell, he could have just said 'lots').

Now the first thing I did was subdivide 30 the most obvious way - into 3 and 10. Where have we seen those numbers before? 10, of course, plays a huge role on Roshar, and there were 10 orders of Knights Radiant and presumably 10 forms of Surgebinding. Yet the number 10 also seems to play a role on Roshar independent of simply the Knights and Surgebinding (and thus Honor).

And of course, there are three Shards on Roshar - Honor, Cultivation and Odium. So would it not make sense for each of the Shards on Roshar to have 10 magic systems of their own (assuming that we count all forms of Surgebinding as different). This makes so much sense to me that I can't see any arguments against it.

Though this does raise another intriguing question. I just read Featherwriter's thread about Honor being shattered like Adonalsium, and I thought Honor being shattered into 10 explained why the number 10 appeared so often in tWoK. But now, it appears that the number 10 is more connected to the fundamental workings of the Cosmere - for example, the 10 Core Shardworlds that Brandon recently mentioned. Interesting, no?

The possibility was raised here that magic systems are a "natural" result of Shardic interactions with each other and the world they are on, giving rise to 7 possible magic systems from interaction on Roshar.

I'm not a big believer in shards powering 10 discrete magic systems each. So let's assume a clear division of systems that breaks down to 7 fundamental magics and work from there. That leaves us 23 short.

*Mistborn Spoilers*

I am going to assume that a Shard powering different aspects of a unified magic system is counted as unique here. If you look at Allomancy and Feruchemy, you could plausably argue that there are 16 different types of Allomancy/Feruchemy, with Mistborn/full Feruchemists happening to utilize all of them at the same time.

In the same way, we can assume that the Knights Radiant, despite having 10 discrete powers that are doled out in pairs to each Order, are all powered by a single "unifying magic," which only costs us 1 of the 7 we know of. That leaves us at 14 magic systems unaccounted for.

Now this is a manageable number, and I can easily see some sub-division of types going on between the other 6 combinations of Shardic influence leftover.

EDIT:

Actually, we can knock some more out right now. Looking at the WoK Ars Arcanum, the author mentions "the ten levels of Voidbinding." Assuming a single unifying magic to power those, we have 5 magics left over, with 5 more magics that we know of but which aren't used to power Surgebinding or Voidbinding.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I was one of the first people to propose that each Shard interaction created a new magic system, but that was a purely theoretical calculation. I'm not stuck to it, and I don't think it has to be that way. It's entirely possible that Ruin and Preservation interacted that way only because they were such clean opposites. In other places or with other combinations of Shards, it's entirely possible that the magics would be entirely separate or interact in other ways. Thus I can easily support the notion that with three relatively different Shards on a single planet, they could each produce ten magic systems, interleaved in odd ways but not using simple combinatorics.

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In fact, that '10 levels of Voidbinding' snippet supports my argument. If the Voidbringers are related to Odium (pretty much confirmed) then Voidbinding could easily be Odium's magic system, in which case he could be considered to have 10 magic systems.

Remember that the Word of Brandon I was referencing mentioned that there were 30 magic systems depending on how you look at it. Thus, You could see each individual type of Surgebinding as it's own magic system (since we have seen that Windrunning and Soulcasting have their own rule systems) or you could see Surgebinding as a whole as one magic system. Thus, the 30 figure is based on the interpretation that each is different.

Personally, If he said the exact figure of '30' then there must be a reason for that. Your idea about there being 7 combinations doesn't fit numbers wise. Seven doesn't fit into the Stormlight Archive or the Cosmere as a whole in any meaningful way. 10 does fit into the Stormlight Archive (and may fit into the Cosmere as a whole, given there are 10 core Shardworlds) and 3 certainly fits into the Stormlight Archive, given that there are 3 Shards on Roshar.

The simple thing is, your idea isn't neat. Brandon's magic systems are all very rule based - when there is ambiguity or things don't fit together, that indicates we don't understand the rules properly - rules which are subsequently revealed in later books. If there are seven magic 'archetypes' on Roshar, then the magic system would need to be divided along somewhat arbitrary lines. It just doesn't seem to fit with Brandons' style, to be honest.

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In fact, that '10 levels of Voidbinding' snippet supports my argument. If the Voidbringers are related to Odium (pretty much confirmed) then Voidbinding could easily be Odium's magic system, in which case he could be considered to have 10 magic systems.

Remember that the Word of Brandon I was referencing mentioned that there were 30 magic systems depending on how you look at it. Thus, You could see each individual type of Surgebinding as it's own magic system (since we have seen that Windrunning and Soulcasting have their own rule systems) or you could see Surgebinding as a whole as one magic system. Thus, the 30 figure is based on the interpretation that each is different.

Personally, If he said the exact figure of '30' then there must be a reason for that. Your idea about there being 7 combinations doesn't fit numbers wise. Seven doesn't fit into the Stormlight Archive or the Cosmere as a whole in any meaningful way. 10 does fit into the Stormlight Archive (and may fit into the Cosmere as a whole, given there are 10 core Shardworlds) and 3 certainly fits into the Stormlight Archive, given that there are 3 Shards on Roshar.

The simple thing is, your idea isn't neat. Brandon's magic systems are all very rule based - when there is ambiguity or things don't fit together, that indicates we don't understand the rules properly - rules which are subsequently revealed in later books. If there are seven magic 'archetypes' on Roshar, then the magic system would need to be divided along somewhat arbitrary lines. It just doesn't seem to fit with Brandons' style, to be honest.

I think I may have initiated a semantic dispute with you here. I'm fine with seeing the 10 types of Surgebinding as 10 magic systems, but my theory is that they all derive their power from a single combination of Shards, or just Honor, in this case.

7 comes from 2^3-1 for Roshar, from the 2^n-1 calculation used to see how many Shard interactions there can be on a given world, just as 2^2-1 is 3 for Scadrial and 2^1-1 is 1 for Nalthis. I did not mean to claim that it had any Cosmere significance.

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I think I may have initiated a semantic dispute with you here. I'm fine with seeing the 10 types of Surgebinding as 10 magic systems, but my theory is that they all derive their power from a single combination of Shards, or just Honor, in this case.

7 comes from 2^3-1 for Roshar, from the 2^n-1 calculation used to see how many Shard interactions there can be on a given world, just as 2^2-1 is 3 for Scadrial and 2^1-1 is 1 for Nalthis. I did not mean to claim that it had any Cosmere significance.

I understand the point you were making about combinations of Shards. The point I was trying to make is that it would fit together awkwardly. If we accept that Surgebinding is the Honor-only one of the seven, and that we have Voidbinding as either the Odium one or the Honor-Odium mix, then that still means that two of our 7 combinations using up 20 of the 30 systems. This means that the remaining 5 combinations have 10 magic systems between them, and I find it unlikely they would be divided into even 2's.

My point is that if we use your theory, the different combinations have different numbers of magic systems withing them, all on the same world. There doesn't appear to be precedent for that in Brandon's other novels. Excepting god metals and their alloys, the same 16 metals are used for Allomancy and Feruchemy on Scadrial, and there is no reason to believe that Hemalurgy doesn't have the same number. Using your ideas, it would be a bit like Allomancy and Hemalurgy having 16 metals each to use, but Feruchemy only having 5, or some other unprecedented number. It just wouldn't fit together as well.

However, I will accept that it is strange that there may not be any combination of magic. Happyman says that might only be because Ruin and Preservation were such perfect opposites, and thus they created a middle ground magic system, but that doesn't hold up with other Word of Brandon. He has mentioned the possibility of having a conflux book, where different magic systems meet. The very fact he has mentioned it as a possibility indicates that there is no reason it would not happen if two Shards met.

If so, then why have Honor and Odium and Cultivation not created combos? To say nothing of what happened on Sel, although we know far too little about how the AonDor, the Dakhor, and the mystic martial art of which I cannot remember the name actually work, not to mention the way Aona and Skai, or the Seons and Skaze function, to be sure.

There are two theories I can think of. The first is that somehow, Aona and Skai being splintered is interfering with them making combo systems. If Honor was splintered too, then that can be explained as well, but we know too little about Cultivation to explain that.

Actually, that raises a very interesting point - do we know Odium hasn't got Cultivation yet? Considering the only word we have about her is from Honor's diary, which was recorded a long time ago, she may well have been splintered as well - although that begs the question of why Odium hasn't destroyed Roshar already if there are no other Shards there.

Anyway, my second theory is that the combo systems only occur when the Shards first meet. Thus, the combo systems were around in the distant past, but have been forgotten about now that, for want of a better term, the Shards have 'settled down' on their respective worlds. It is not the presence of two Shards that causes combined systems, but rather these two shards meeting. This would fit with what Brandon said about conflux books.

The one problem with this is that it does not explain Feruchemy. Perhaps this comes back to Happyman's explanation about the Ruin/Preservation dichotomy - that the way Ruin and Preservation are so opposed mean that there is permanently a combo system in place.

Anyone have any other explanations?

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Kaurne:

I'm a bit curious as to one bit of your logic. You use the fact that Brandon has stated that there will (essentially) be cross-overs between the books and the magic systems. This is perfectly reasonable to me; in fact, if you pay attention, it has already happened. However, this has nothing to do with where the magic systems come from or how they exist. It seems likely that magic systems either come from the Shards that created the worlds or from the Shards which have been present for a long time. It's also possible that "combination" magic systems only occur when the Shards are properly opposed. The fact that,at some point, people created by different Shards with different magics will run into each other doesn't seem to weigh in on the argument one way or the other.

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My idea doesnt make a difference for other worlds, but on Roshar, Brandon has also said that depending on how you count it there can also be 10, I reckon there are the 10 different surges and different ways of manipulating them through the 3 different shards.

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Kaurne:

I'm a bit curious as to one bit of your logic. You use the fact that Brandon has stated that there will (essentially) be cross-overs between the books and the magic systems. This is perfectly reasonable to me; in fact, if you pay attention, it has already happened. However, this has nothing to do with where the magic systems come from or how they exist. It seems likely that magic systems either come from the Shards that created the worlds or from the Shards which have been present for a long time. It's also possible that "combination" magic systems only occur when the Shards are properly opposed. The fact that,at some point, people created by different Shards with different magics will run into each other doesn't seem to weigh in on the argument one way or the other.

Sorry. Maybe I am misunderstanding Brandon. I thought that what he meant by a 'conflux' book involved two magic systems mixing and combining, creating new forms of magic rather than where a character or characters from one world with one magic system go to another world or encounter another magic system (which may be a problem if a particularly honourable Twinborn arrived on Roshar - the right combination would make them a combat monster).

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  • 2 weeks later...

In Mistborn, while the magics wete different, they all depended on the same metals.

In Elantris, again the magics were different but they were all based on symbols. The shoad, drew symbol, the monk bore symbols on their bones, they chayshan createdd forms using movements.

So in the stormlight archive, we know there are three shards, but we assume the magics are different but what is the unifier. There are two thing i believe all magics would need, spren or stormlight. The only reason why stormlight in not the only option is than in shen they barely get the storms, and our damned radiant knight assasin is from there. Also the heretic soulcaster would have noticed if she was draining near by gems of storm light.

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The way I read this is:

10 orders of Knights Radiant. 10 powers total, each order gets 2, each power shows up in 2 orders.

Each order gets 1 unique powerset that comes about as a combination of the two powers, or is simply unique to that order. This one really depends on if Kaladin's Stormriding is a unique Windrunner power, or something else.

So, Knights Radiant take up 20 of those 30. Or 10, if you break it down to each order's full powerset being a different magic system.

That leaves 10 or 20. 10 levels of Voidbinding makes for another 10. This either leaves nothing for Cultivation (unlikely) or 10 left for her.

Which means, logically, that 10 of the magic systems BS told us about are each of the orders of the Knights Radiant (20 powers, total, but each order only gets one "system"), 10 orders of Voidbringers, and 10 left for Cultivation.

Note, this should only involve magic that runs on stormlight. "Natural" magic, e.g. Axies the Collector being able to change his body and his shadow going the wrong way, should probably not be included in this count, like mistwraiths from Mistborn. They didn't count as a magic system there until they were hemalurgically spiked. If it didn't run on metal, it didn't count in Mistborn. Same with stormlight here. No stormlight, no magic system.

God, I wish we had another series that went as far into its magic system and background as Mistborn did. It would make all of this so much easier.

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It's also quite possible that Honour is the only one with exactly 10 magic systems under the 30 count, and that some belong to Cultivation or Odium, but others result as an interaction between Odium and Honour or Cultivation and Odium or whatever.

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I think Odium probably has a magic on Roshar. Just because he didn't originally start out there doesn't mean he hasn't been their long enough for his presence to start affecting the inhabitants of Roshar. I think Endowment has done a similar thing by recently coming to Nalthis, and yet s/he has a magic system (not trying to toot my own horn, but if you want to check out more of what I think about this look at my 'Endowment Recently Arrived on Nalthis' theory, I think it's pretty good)

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