Theory: Atium and Immortality (spoilers)

[Musicspren]

This theory departs from the typical understanding of how TLR’s (and later Marsh’s) immortality worked. Sazed’s description, that TLR was compounding atium (to use AofL terminology) has a few problems, some of which have been discussed on this thread about compounding twinborns. Reasonable explanations have been given, but some problems remain. These are what my theory is intended to address. But first, the normal understanding:

Part I: Sazed’s theory refined

(Note that I am drawing a bit of this part from the aforementioned compounding twinborns thread; I have not given specific credits as I have not quoted directly, but I am borrowing ideas from various Sharders for this explanation). Sazed explains in the epilogue of FE that:

You see, youth is one of the things that a Feruchemist can store. It’s a fairly useless process—in order to store up the ability to feel and look a year younger, you would have to spend part of your life feeling and looking one year older. Often, Keepers use the ability as a disguise, changing ages to fool others and hide. Beyond this, however, no one has ever seen much use for the ability.

He then explains the basics of compounding. The current theory I have seen, which may not be exactly what Sazed meant, is that during TLR’s time in his Terris room, he was burning his atiumminds (compounding) and storing the excess age, which he was later tapping. For most of the time (whenever he wasn’t in that room), he was not actively compounding his atium but was tapping large stores of it (which he accumulated by compounding). Thus, when Vin Pushed his bracers off, he lost his access to what he was tapping, and he did not have any in his stomach to burn.

Part II: The problems

One problem with this approach is that TLR should not have needed his time being older in the Terris room. If he could burn atiumminds for such vast stores of youth, he should have been able to keep some of his youth while putting the rest into his bracers without being older. He might not want to do anything that took his mind off keeping the balance of taking a little age without making himself too young, although he could always burn a zincmind if he needed extra mental speed for a time, so even that’s not really an issue. Being old while compounding would allow him to store slightly more, but as much as he was gaining, I doubt that was really significant.

The other, larger problem I see is the supply of atium needed to maintain this. Kelsier says that:

Once every three days, […] the Lord Ruler visits this chamber. He stays for three hours, then leaves.

Thus TLR is burning atium for about 1 hour every day on average. Atium burns particularly quickly, so even one solid hour of burning it would expend a lot. I don’t know that there are enough Hathsin slaves to retrieve that much for every day (or if the pits supply that much every day). Even if there is adequate supply, there’s still another problem. Marsh has a bag of atium. One bag, and no other supply. Early on, that won’t be much of an issue; he’s not old to begin with. But once he is old enough to require substantial compounding, that bag will not last long. I have doubts he could live until the time of AofL.

Part III: The alternative

Sazed says that feruchemists can store youth. However, the Ars Arcanum of WoA and HoA say that atium stores age. Not youth, age. Every other feruchemical metal stores something viewed as a positive quantity. Tapping iron gives you more weight; tapping tin gives you more sensitivity, tapping gold gives you more health, etc. Conversely, storing any metal gives you less of that thing. However, the storing is not always a disadvantage; sometimes you are better to have less weight (iron), less acute senses (tin), or a lower temperature (brass). For atium to store youth would be an exception; youth is a negative quantity. Negative does not mean that it is undesirable, but it is against something measured as positive (age, in this case). Storing youth would be like storing lightness or blindness or coldness.

My theory is that atium really does store age, not youth. This would mean that TLR was wearing his atiumminds and storing his age in them. No compounding would be necessary; in fact, it would be undesirable. If TLR was filling, rather emptying his atiumminds, it would fit with the fact that, as soon as Vin pushed them off, he had nowhere to send his age away to, and his body quickly changed back to its true age.

Why, then, did he spend three hours every three days being older? I believe that, after three days, his atiumminds were nearing the point where he could fill them no more. He could have discarded them and gotten new ones, but that would have left suspicious waste. There would be bracers somewhere that appeared to be made of atium, but had no Allomantic potential. Beyond that, he would frequently require new bracers made out of the most valuable material in the Final Empire, meaning that someone would have to make those bracers. The more exchanges like that occurred, the more people would ask questions about what was happening. For TLR, such questions would be dangerous. But he could avoid those issues by taking care of it himself. Rather than trading out atiumminds, he could empty them. Emptying three days of age in three hours would put him being several thousand years old for that time, but if he were compounding gold (and possibly steel, pewter, and zinc), he could probably survive. He would still look old, and possibly not be fully healthy, but he would live. This method would also allow Marsh, with a bag of atium, to live by filling atiumminds, then emptying them, without having to worry about ever running out of the atium in the bag.

Part IV: But Sazed said…

Yes, Sazed, with all his copperminds, said it stored youth. How much do Keepers get to use atium? Nobles are not going to give Terrismen (or women) atium to play with. It will be extremely well protected, so no steward will be able to inconspicuously steal some. When Kelsier stole from Keep Venture, there was a large confrontation, which Kelsier wanted. The Terris are bred to be obedient, so such a rebellion as stealing from their masters (and probably a bit of fighting) would be much harder for them. I suspect very few Keepers have ever so much as touched atium. Perhaps they recorded that it stored age and Sazed assumed that it actually stored youth, because storing age would seem too good to be true. Or perhaps a certain Shard with a history of tweaking what was in metalminds changed it so Sazed would believe it stored youth. Sazed doesn’t know everything; later in the epilogue, he and Marsh are discussing TLR:

[sazed:] “What is the main difference between Allomancy and Feruchemy?”

“Allomancy draws its power from metals,” Marsh said. “Feruchemy draws its powers from the person’s own body.”

“Exactly,” Sazed said.

We now know that Allomancy does not “exactly” draw its power from metals. The explanation is not entirely wrong, but it’s a small misunderstanding, just as age/youth could be. After the FE, atium was in such short supply, no one would have given it to Sazed to experiment with it, and after HoA, no more atium existed (except what Marsh had).

What are your thoughts? This is my first large theory; should I have worn an aluminum foil hat?

Edit: Sanderson just explained compounding here, and said (toward the end):

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored--"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”--and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

So he said that TLR used compounding, but not specifically that he used atium compounding.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Musicspren

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Very interesting, and somewhat plausible. I shall need a little longer to muse on this before a list of reasons why I agree/disagree, but I really like the concept.

[Eric]

My disagreement is with the assertion that Sazed is wrong in any meaningful way about atium. When describing it to Marsh, yes, he says youth. But when describing it to Vin, he says age, and describes how it works. He even tells Marsh that Keepers often use it to disguise themselves. This doesn't seem to be speculation; Sazed explains it fully again and the word "often" is his, not mine. He's relaying things he's confident about being factually true: that when storing, one becomes older, and when tapping, one becomes younger.

The best word for what Atium stores is probably "lifespan", rather than "age" or "youth". You store and get older, you tap and get younger, not because of an actual temporal effect, but because you're shortening or lengthening your life. Which is a terrifyingly appropriate thing to store in the body of Ruin, if you ask me.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Eric

[Musicspren]

My disagreement is with the assertion that Sazed is wrong in any meaningful way about atium. When describing it to Marsh, yes, he says youth. But when describing it to Vin, he says age, and describes how it works. He even tells Marsh that Keepers often use it to disguise themselves. This doesn't seem to be speculation; Sazed explains it fully again and the word "often" is his, not mine. He's relaying things he's confident about being factually true: that when storing, one becomes older, and when tapping, one becomes younger.

This is one of the greatest problems with my theory. Whichever way it worked, the Keepers could still use it to disguise themselves; they would just have to begin being young before they could be old in my theory. It could still disguise them. The word "often" is also difficult; I am taking it to mean that they use atium for that more than for anything other purpose, not that they actually use it frequently. But I am stretching it to try to fit with the other facts.

The best word for what Atium stores is probably "lifespan", rather than "age" or "youth". You store and get older, you tap and get younger, not because of an actual temporal effect, but because you're shortening or lengthening your life. Which is a terrifyingly appropriate thing to store in the body of Ruin, if you ask me.

I like the idea of lifespan a bit; it frames it as more of a positive quantity again. My disagreement is that if TLR was appearing younger by tapping stored lifespan than he had compounded, it means he probably had to lengthen his lifespan to at least 3000 years so he would appear young at a little over 1000. Although we can't way what the limit was, gaining enough from compounding to go from a lifespan probably 60-80 years to a lifespan 3000-4000 years sounds extreme. The other issue I have with lifespan is that, when TLR's bracers came off, he should have died as soon as his body reverted to an age past whatever his natural lifespan would be. As it was, he was very weak (like he was very old), but did not die until Vin speared him.

[Kurkistan]

The other issue I have with lifespan is that, when TLR's bracers came off, he should have died as soon as his body reverted to an age past whatever his natural lifespan would be. As it was, he was very weak (like he was very old), but did not die until Vin speared him.

I'm still mulling over the rest of your theory, but your own points about TLR keeping himself alive while tapping "age" from Atium, that "if he were compounding gold (and possibly steel, pewter, and zinc), he could probably survive" apply equally well to a 1000+ years old TLR surviving, albeit in an incredibly weakened state, for a short time after having his Atium bracers taken away.

[Morderkaine]

The biggest problem I see with this theory is the math:

For simplicity's sake assume: TLR's actual age is 1020 years old, he uses his Atium Feruchemy to appear 20 years old, and Scadrial's days are the same length as ours.

This mean's TLR spends 69 hours storing and 3 hours taping age every cycle.

To deplete his age stores he must tap age 23 times faster than he stored it.

69 hours*1000 years=69000 years of stored age
69000 years stored/3 hours tapping=23000 years tapped per hour
23000 years tapped per hour/1000 years stored per hour=23 years tapped per year stored

Even if this results in a massive loss due to Feruchemy's diminishing returns, %99 loss, he still increases his age by 230 years.

23000 years*0.01 effective rate=230 years

This means he spends 3 hours at an effective age of 1250 years old. Even with gold compounding I doubt that's survivable.

1020 years actual ages+230 years tapped age=1250 years old

Now let's apply a more reasonable, but still fairly large, loss of power, %20.

With this loss his age is increased by 18400 years.

23000 years*0.8 effective rate=18400 years

He now spends 3 hours at an effective age of 19420 years. No way that's survivable.

1020 years actual age+18400 years tapped age=19420 years old

As much as I like the like the idea, it just doesn't seem plausible to me.

[Eric]

The other issue I have with lifespan is that, when TLR's bracers came off, he should have died as soon as his body reverted to an age past whatever his natural lifespan would be. As it was, he was very weak (like he was very old), but did not die until Vin speared him.

On the other hand, Sazed says TLR would have died shortly because of the aging anyway (and that he thinks it makes for a better story for TLR to have been killed by Vin). So there really isn't much of a conflict there. But you're right, even this word doesn't fit the observed effects perfectly.

Actually, there's the problem entirely. It's being looked at, in every theory of our discussion and in the books themselves, as a temporal aspect. If we ignore what the books say, which may be wrong due to being in-world descriptions and not necessarily true canon, we could look at the observable effects and give it a suitable name. Like "Vitality", perhaps. Defining it as something that you will have as long as you live, even if in diminishing measure, let's us avoid the constant diminishing returns and hit a plateau at some point, presumably already reached by the time of the first novel. That fits far more with what we've observed to be true than what we've been told is true, without violating any points that I can recall.

Especially the most important point: "There's always another secret."

[Kurkistan]

Actually, there's the problem entirely. It's being looked at, in every theory of our discussion and in the books themselves, as a temporal aspect. If we ignore what the books say, which may be wrong due to being in-world descriptions and not necessarily true canon, we could look at the observable effects and give it a suitable name. Like "Vitality", perhaps. Defining it as something that you will have as long as you live, even if in diminishing measure, let's us avoid the constant diminishing returns and hit a plateau at some point, presumably already reached by the time of the first novel. That fits far more with what we've observed to be true than what we've been told is true, without violating any points that I can recall.

Especially the most important point: "There's always another secret."

I like "Vitality" as the attribute that Atium stores. We know that one problem that Feruchemists run into as they get older is diminished reserves of certain Feruchemical attributes to draw upon. In fact, when I look at the Feruchemical powers, it seems that most powers outside of the spiritual/enhancement metals could be plausibly tied to age. Determination, Memory, and Weight are the only ones that are impossible to draw into correspondence with age (Memory might be plausible, but we have to consider that it’s only the clarity of the memory at the moment of storage that matters: how well the Ferring’s mind can retain the memory outside of the coppermind is immaterial).

A young Fering can safely store more Strength and Health than an old one. Old ferrings presumably have to store a larger proportion of their diminished senses in order to match the outputs of younger ferrings. I see “Vitality” as an overriding attribute which drives several other attributes while waxing and waning in a bell curve throughout everyone’s life. This also ties in well with the Atium being a God metal: it is tied tied to a more fundamental attribute than the normal metals.

This also explains why Miles, or any Gold Compounder, could die of old age, as discussed in this thread. It is not only the Ferring’s health which determines his well-being in this case. His overriding Vitality stat diminishes over time, reducing all of his attributes; Strength, most importantly. While his heart and lungs might not grow diseased, his body’s strength will eventually deteriorate to the point where his organs simply aren’t strong enough to maintain the flow of oxygen to his brain, rendering him brain-dead and incapable of tapping his goldminds.

P.S. The difference I see between Vitality and Age here is more one of word choice than anything else. Calling this attribute "Vitality" more closely links it to the actual effects of storing/tapping it, while I see "Age" as more of a description of effects than an attribute.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Musicspren]

@Morderkaine: Those numbers are extremely high; I'll agree that even gold/pewter/steel/zinc might not be enough to keep him alive; it's hard to say. However, no theory I've seen seems to explain why he would need to spend time being old (compounding should make being old as unnecessary for him as being unhealthy would be for Miles), so I was trying to come up with an explanation. Given the regularity of TLR's visits to the Terris room, I assume he didn't just go there when he felt like being old for the fun of it. If that were the case, there almost certainly wouldn't be a fixed schedule of when he went.

@Eric and Kurkistan: I think the "Vitality" concept could be enough to get rid of my argument about age being a negative quantity. However, the limits of supply still remain. If TLR is compounding vitality for an average of one hour every day, he needs a lot of atium. Marsh, once he's beyond a natural lifespan, will also use up atium quickly (even though he won't need as much as TLR for a long time). So I'm not embracing the idea of vitality just yet.

[ulyssessword]

One thing about Feruchemy that hasn't been fully explored is if there are hard limits to the maximum stored and tapped at once, beyond which it is absolutely impossible to go, regardless of the side effects. For example, without limits an iron feruchemist could store 99.99% of their mass, and become lighter than air. I'm thinking that the limit for tapping Atium is 1024 years, which would fit well with Sazed's statement that TLR would have died soon anyways.

[Eric]

@Eric and Kurkistan: I think the "Vitality" concept could be enough to get rid of my argument about age being a negative quantity. However, the limits of supply still remain. If TLR is compounding vitality for an average of one hour every day, he needs a lot of atium. Marsh, once he's beyond a natural lifespan, will also use up atium quickly (even though he won't need as much as TLR for a long time). So I'm not embracing the idea of vitality just yet.

Not necessarily. The ideas of multiplying the effects of Investitures that was posited by Galvantes and Catalyst21 the the "Why TLR was so strong" thread works even better with the idea of Vitality than it does with Age.

One thing about Feruchemy that hasn't been fully explored is if there are hard limits to the maximum stored and tapped at once, beyond which it is absolutely impossible to go, regardless of the side effects. For example, without limits an iron feruchemist could store 99.99% of their mass, and become lighter than air. I'm thinking that the limit for tapping Atium is 1024 years, which would fit well with Sazed's statement that TLR would have died soon anyways.

I interpreted that as Sazed meaning "without his bracers, he was dying of old age. It's better for the story that you stabbed him." It wasn't a limit of the atium, but a limit of the body without it.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Everything I recall seeing indicated that one of Feruchemy's greatest strengths was its lack of a hard upper limit on how much you could tap at once.

You are limited by how much metal you can wear on your body, I suppose, but Rashek was nowhere close to hitting that limit.

[ulyssessword]

Everything I recall seeing indicated that one of Feruchemy's greatest strengths was its lack of a hard upper limit on how much you could tap at once.

You are limited by how much metal you can wear on your body, I suppose, but Rashek was nowhere close to hitting that limit.

I was basing that off of a bad interpretation of the text, I had assumed that by "dying soon", it was meant in the next few decades, not in the minutes after the bracers were removed. I'm actually fairly sure that there is no hard limit to Feruchemy, unless it is a limit imposed by the diminishing returns (which we still don't know the precise system of).

For example, if you tap 100x weight, you get out 60x, for tapping 1000x, you get 400x, 10 000, you get 2 000x, and tapping 100 000x you get 0x after factoring in diminishing returns. If this is the system, the limit for gaining weight would be about 3000x or so, when you are tapping about 12000x your weight from the metalmind (someone who is better at logarithms/has a better calculator handy could work out more precise numbers).

[Musicspren]

Not necessarily. The ideas of multiplying the effects of Investitures that was posited by Galvantes and Catalyst21 the the "Why TLR was so strong" thread works even better with the idea of Vitality than it does with Age.

Although I would be hesitant to think that TLR had nicrosil when no one seemed to even know of chromium, it is quite possible given what people have heard at signings. It would make the amount of atium necessary much more reasonable. But Marsh? He would have to have both a spike giving him Feruchemical spiritual powers (I suspect that would mean a chromium spike, but I don't know for certain) and a supply of nicrosil. I'm not saying that's impossible, but I don't know how he would have those (the spike could be from Ruin's guidance, but not the nicrosil). Rashek I can rationalize as "he's the Lord Ruler, he might have learned of it when he took the Well's power, and he can make people give him what he wants." Ironeyes, however, is unlikely to have access to it; even if he somehow has the requisite spike, he would need a supply of allomancy- and feruchemy-grade nicrosil.

For example, if you tap 100x weight, you get out 60x, for tapping 1000x, you get 400x, 10 000, you get 2 000x, and tapping 100 000x you get 0x after factoring in diminishing returns. If this is the system, the limit for gaining weight would be about 3000x or so, when you are tapping about 12000x your weight from the metalmind (someone who is better at logarithms/has a better calculator handy could work out more precise numbers).

Wouldn't that make it end-negative?

[Kurkistan]

For example, if you tap 100x weight, you get out 60x, for tapping 1000x, you get 400x, 10 000, you get 2 000x, and tapping 100 000x you get 0x after factoring in diminishing returns. If this is the system, the limit for gaining weight would be about 3000x or so, when you are tapping about 12000x your weight from the metalmind (someone who is better at logarithms/has a better calculator handy could work out more precise numbers).

Wouldn't that make it end-negative?

It's been established in the Brandonothology that drawing upon large proportions of Feruchemical attributes has diminishing returns, but it's still "balanced:"

Q: And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

A: It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does--but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

"Compounding" is obviously used differently here than in AoL, but besides that it still holds.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Kurkistan

[ulyssessword]

Wouldn't that make it end-negative?

Yes, but the only way I could think of how to reconcile diminishing returns with conservation of the attributes is to have it be due to measurement error between adding and multiplying.

For example, if you look at the totals, spending 2 hours at 50% strength (2 hours * -50% = 100 %hours stored) should allow you to have 1 hour of 200% strength (1 hour * +100% = 100 %hours tapped), but only 30 minutes at 300% strength (0.5 hours * +200% = 100 %hours tapped), or just over 6 minutes at 10x strength (0.11 hours * +900% = 100%hours tapped).

The idea that they think of it as multiplicative with feruchemy actually being additive, explaining the "diminishing returns" is sort of supported by the fact that Sazed talks of storing half of one's strength for a time, and tapping to become twice as strong, or ten times, as opposed to wording it as gaining the strength of a second person, or nine additional times the strength, although that would sound quite awkward. I also have trouble believing such a basic mathematical error would remain among some of the most knowledgeable people in the world, unless it was a just simplified explanation.

[happyman]

Yes, but the only way I could think of how to reconcile diminishing returns with conservation of the attributes is to have it be due to measurement error between adding and multiplying.

For example, if you look at the totals, spending 2 hours at 50% strength (2 hours * -50% = 100 %hours stored) should allow you to have 1 hour of 200% strength (1 hour * +100% = 100 %hours tapped), but only 30 minutes at 300% strength (0.5 hours * +200% = 100 %hours tapped), or just over 6 minutes at 10x strength (0.11 hours * +900% = 100%hours tapped).

The idea that they think of it as multiplicative with feruchemy actually being additive, explaining the "diminishing returns" is sort of supported by the fact that Sazed talks of storing half of one's strength for a time, and tapping to become twice as strong, or ten times, as opposed to wording it as gaining the strength of a second person, or nine additional times the strength, although that would sound quite awkward. I also have trouble believing such a basic mathematical error would remain among some of the most knowledgeable people in the world, unless it was a just simplified explanation.

My guess is that the terms don't refer to whether there is actual loss or not, but what the fundamental mechanism is behind the magic. The fact that Feruchemy experiences some "friction" (possibly due to an enormous number of other things) doesn't change the fact that its fundamental job is moving attributes around rather than taking them from Preservation (Allomancy) or diminishing their returns indefinitely (Hemalurgy). In Allomancy, the fact that you are drawing power from outside yourself is inherent to the system. In Hemalurgy, the loss is inherent in the way the system works. With Feruchemy, there is apparently some loss in the transfer, but that is not the essence of the magic. It may just be limitations due to the way human bodies work.

[Musicspren]

I hadn't seen that explanation of the diminishing returns in Feruchemy; I stand corrected. That would put a limit on Rashek's (and Marsh's) age if atium stores vitality, although it would actually make emptying his atiumminds less demanding if it stores age.

[Aranfan]

The so called "diminishing returns" in Feruchemy in that explanation aren't really diminishing at all. It's an artifact of how you can't actually store 100% of any given atribute for any given time period without significant and sometimes fatal complications.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

To be fair, though, even if you could, sometimes people tap a lot more than 100%.

[Ari]

I'm not really sure someone who was spiked or a mistborn burning duralumin while burning a feruchemically charged metal would actually produce any different result to simply burning that feruchemical power at normal speed.

The way I understood it was that flaring and duralumin both increased the power of metals you burned by consuming the metals faster for a larger effect, similar to accessing more of a feruchemical charge at once, you'de actually get less charge out of the metal in total in exchange for getting more power at a time when you really needed it. Given that essentially the point of compounding metals is to store the excess in other metalminds and expand the total amount of charge you have available, accessing the feruchemical charge faster wouldn't really help, as you're still storing it away. It could be useful for dramatic uses of the power though- for instance making yourself super-heavy.

The only way I can see that being useful would be for an atium compounder who is so old that they're beyond the point of being able to tap age to survive and now needs to constantly burn it instead, then needs to flare it, and finally needs to constantly use duralumin while burning atiumminds in order to live. (Although that last may not be possible, as you might not have the time to recycle atiumminds into burnable atium given how fast Duralumin burns away metals, and how fast Atium burns in the first place)

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ari

[Musicspren]

I don't believe duralumin could help matters. The benefits of nicrosil would be that 1) you could compound ordinary allomantic powers to make the stronger, and 2) TLR could conserve atium, if we view it as storing vitality. Duralumin would give approximate the first, but not the second. Actually, there could be a danger if TLR were compounding vitality and burned duralumin for some other purpose, accidentally including the vitality in its burst. He would have a huge amount of vitality momentarily, but would then be ancient (this is not a danger if atium stores age). Marsh is puzzling; he probably has duralumin, but that won't help with immortality, and I find it very doubtful he has had access to nicrosil after the world was remade. I don't believe it's possible to "constantly use duralumin", because you would have to constantly replenish your metals. I suppose there could eventually be NG tubes for allomantic metals...but that would be weird and painful.

[Windrunner]

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored--"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”--and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

This is from a signing that Brandon did at Milton Keynes. It appears to confirm that the Lord Ruler did compound his atiumminds for his immortality. I'm actually kind of sad about this, I really liked this theory.

[Ari]

I don't believe duralumin could help matters. The benefits of nicrosil would be that 1) you could compound ordinary allomantic powers to make the stronger, and 2) TLR could conserve atium, if we view it as storing vitality. Duralumin would give approximate the first, but not the second. Actually, there could be a danger if TLR were compounding vitality and burned duralumin for some other purpose, accidentally including the vitality in its burst. He would have a huge amount of vitality momentarily, but would then be ancient (this is not a danger if atium stores age). Marsh is puzzling; he probably has duralumin, but that won't help with immortality, and I find it very doubtful he has had access to nicrosil after the world was remade. I don't believe it's possible to "constantly use duralumin", because you would have to constantly replenish your metals. I suppose there could eventually be NG tubes for allomantic metals...but that would be weird and painful.

If the metal was relatively slow burning, you could potentially do it, although it would be so inconvenient you'd need a pretty good reason.

[Aradel]

While I love tinkering around with your theory in my head. I'm fairly sure that Brandon is set on Atium storing age.

I'll give credit to the vitality idea too. Atium is a God metal after all, storing an attribute that affects other feruchemical attributes would make sense.

Assuming that the Lord Ruler didn't know all the metals, or didn't have easy access to them without the secret getting out, I don't think that duralumin or any of the other "new" metals would come into play.

As for the math... I take forever at math, I'm going to use a plothole and say that the Lord Ruler is the Lord Ruler, he doesn't let little things like math get in his way.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ookla the Abstracted