Kiwi

- I love the idea of Syl as a mother, especially if it has something to do with Shardplate - Pervy Spren, love it - I really think Ryshadiums are interesting, I want to know what Renarin is thinking about them - Renarin's Shardblade and Progression healing! Yay! (Never could imagine him being evil, or having "something wrong" with him) - Kind of random, and not sure if there are actual implications... but was Adolin's vision of himself oddly similar to how Allomantic Gold/Malatium works? - I know it's just because I don't identify with Dalinar's type of character as much as I did with Shallan's, but I'm not enjoying the flashbacks as much as I did in the previous two books (Just my bias). Hopefully I'll enjoy them more when the big stuff happens - The Stormfather knows way too much, and says way too little - Poor Dalinar, can't catch a break with Roshar's leaders. But maybe his new position will help later on? - I can totally dig Elhokar and Kaladin working together, might be really fun - *groans*... Taravangian... what are you up to now? (I don't trust this guy AT ALL)

I think these honorspren are unique in that it largely depends on how others view you. It's difficult for Dalinar to attract positive attention towards his honorable actions because of the Alethi way of thinking. The Alethi view fighting and vengeance to be honorable, rather than the way Dalinar portrays honor. On the other hand, you can see Kaladin attract an honorspren because of the way others felt about him. Before he was a slave, Syl was attracted to Kaladin, and she says it was from the loyalty of the men he commanded at the time.

Wondering if anyone else has made this connection, and if there may be some significance to it. and I realize this isn't some grand revelation, just something I picked up on while re reading. Stone seems to be pretty important in this world from what has been hinted at when reading Szeth's chapters. Perhaps this is a preview of another surge? I may be drawing from the parallel I see between Vin and her younger sister who died, and Kaladin and his younger brother, by assuming Tien may have had a surge, but it's how I interpret the passages I quoted above. Also, I kind of wonder if the rock really did make Kal feel better through the magic system. We've seen Kaladin absorb Stormlight from spheres without knowing it, so it may not be too much of a stretch to think that Tien may have done the same. Or it could have just been the nice gesture from his younger brother. Anywho, let me know what you guys think.

It may just be me, but when I look at this Surge chart, I see a lot of unnecessary lines. I believe the only ones the really matter are the line connecting Orders with Surges. As for skaa's theory, it's not completely bad. Seems a little convoluted, but maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly. The thing I wonder about, though, is if a spren can be associated with different orders, or better yet, if multiple spren can be associated with one order, what is the deciding factor in what abilities are received? Do the 2 spren have to be similar? Can they be vastly different? Idk... seems strange.

You make a good point. Through this discussion, I've started coming around to the idea that honorspren is just a general term to cover several types of spren like skaa points out in the following. I hadn't seen those questions before. It's good to know that all spren are either of Honor or Cultivation, or a mix of both. The possibilities, though, are just so varied I don't know where to go. I really think we're on to something, but I think we need some more WOB to connect a few more dots. I think I'm just gonna RAFO myself

This is kind of what I've been trying to figure out in my other thread. I haven't come to any conclusions yet, but there's a nice discussion going on about it.

Right, there has not been any desolations since the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact as far as I am aware. I'm okay with that, I was just saying that they existed together at one point. I have to disagree if I am to keep with my OP. Reading, or having the words read to you, in itself does nothing magical. BUT, it can change your perception of honor, it can change the way you act. Most lighteyes now think that Honor involves dueling, vengeance against the Parshendi, and generally things that I don't think should be viewed as honorable. Dalinar even says that he has changed the way he thinks and acts since reading the Way of Kings. Although, this doesn't completely go along with my OP, since most people view Dalinar as feeble minded and crazy. That's part of the reason why I think his visions may be linked with Honor's (the Shard) power. Not much to base it on, just a feeling. I'd be hard pressed to think of the Heralds "chilling" in Damnation

I actually like those ideas too. I don't know how much I agree with 2 though. I mean there had to be at least some people who other people thought were honorable enough to attract an Honorspren. I agree that the population has become much less honorable than in the past, but everyone is different and eventually someone is going to come along with the right set of ideals. The fact that Gavilar was doing something before he was assassinated, combined with him reading The Way of Kings and following the codes much more towards the end, suggests (to me at least) he wasn't only messing around with the power of the Parshendi Gods, but with other powers as well.

I may be getting confused too, so don't feel left out My timeline may be out of wack, but as I understand it the Heralds created the different Orders of the Knights Radiants. So at one point in time, the Heralds fought along side with the Radiants during the desolations. Do I have this correct? Once the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants still carried on for a time, until they abandoned their Shardplate and Shardblades. So what I'm trying to say is that before the Last Desolation, when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants would be considered "in their prime". I've read a few speculations that the reason the Radiants abandoned their Plate and Blades could have been because of possible corruption in their ranks since the Heralds weren't coming back. It could have even been that they figured out that they really hadn't won like they were told. It could have been they learned that Honor had been splintered. Idk the correct answer. But anyways, back to my original question. I'm just wondering what exactly has caused the reemergence of the magic system, and why now? After the responses today I'm left with more questions, lol. I'm torn between it having something to do with the amount of time since the last desolation, and it having something to do with what Gavilar was doing (And now Dalinar might be continuing).

I'm actually wondering if Dalinar's visions have something to do with the power of Honor's Shard. It's mentioned that he sees things related to the Radiants in the past, and possibly of what is to come. If I understand it correctly, Dalinar's visions come directly from something Tanavast left behind, sort of like an echo. Could the splintered Shard be searching for someone to latch onto, to unite it back to it's original state? Could this be what Gavilar was doing that began the reemergence of the magic system? Are you saying that all Spren were trapped in Shinnovar? Or just the Spren from Shinnovar were trapped? I was under the impression that Spren are naturally occuring phenomena specific to Roshar, and have been around since forever.

That's true, I forgot about that. But the question remains the same, as you mentioned. It makes me wonder if there is a connection with the Parshendi bonding with Spren to rediscover their variety of forms. Okay so I think I have the timing right on the splintering then. When you say people weren't as honorable as Kaladin, at which point in time are you talking about? I'm referring to the time period when the Radiants would be considered "in their prime". Before any possible corruption started to set in, which I believe would have began after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. I was just about to hit "Post" when I saw Kurkistan's response. I guess I haven't got far enough in my re-read to remember that Gavilar was doing anything in particular? Or is this information from WOB?

So now that I've had a few days of this rolling around in my head, two questions present themselves to me. 1.) Was Syl originally an Honorspren, and Kaladin mistook her for a Windspren at the beginning? Or was she originally a Windspren, who transformed into an Honorspren? 2.) According to the Stormlight Archive Wiki, each Radiant was bonded with a Spren. Presumably, there were hundreds, if not thousands of Radiants. If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now? The first question leads me to think that there is something about Windspren that correlates with the Windrunner's ideals. Through the entire book, Kaladin has this constant inner monologue while he's trying to figure out what kind of man he is. One who saves lives, or takes lives. To me, it seems he always comes back to wanting to protect others, which is thought to be the Second Ideal of the Windrunners. So his honorable actions come from wanting to protect others, and therefore attracts the type of Spren that is associated with the Order with the same ideals. Could other types of Spren also transform into Honorspren? Could there be certain types of Spren that fall inline with the abilities of the other Orders? Could it be that the type of Spren is dependent on the individual's personal ideals that fall in line with a specific Order? I don't think there is enough evidence yet to answer these yet, but that's where my thought process is going right now. The second question is kind of me trying to poke holes in my own theory. It may have something to do with the coming Desolation. It may be that Honor wasn't splintered at the time of the Radiants, so he could more easily direct the Honorspren to certain individuals (I hope I have the timing correct on his splintering). Again, I don't think there is enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion yet.

Hmm, this is a tough one. I had read your extension, and that's really where I began to question things. Not that all of that wouldn't be possible, just that my mind was going down a different path. This is all speculation of course. But perhaps Odium came to Roshar with the intentions of making it another Sel. But instead, was bound to this Oathpact to give Honor & Cultivation a chance to survive. Honorspren seem to be able to bind things, so maybe Honor himself forced this on him somehow. Perhaps in exchange for the 10 heralds sacrificing themselves after each Desolation, the rest of the people were given the tools in order to fight back. In the opening scene, Jezrien says, "Better that one man should suffer than ten." It could be a reference to the original intent of this Oathpact. Better that 10 men should suffer than all mankind. From there you might be able to delve into the importance of 10. 10 heartbeats to summon Shardblades for each Herald that is suffering for the times of peace. The time period between Desolations is strongly connected to how many Heralds are in Damnation, or so it has been hinted at. Further speculation on top of further speculation. But fun I know there's the "3 of 16 ruled..." death cry, so Idk if this totally fits. I'm a little fuzzy on the details of when all the Shards arrived at Roshar.

Oh by all means, throw cold water on my creative thinking, because that's all this is. Just because you're bound to something doesn't have to mean you're permanently bound. And I doubt there needs to be a distinction on the binding, once two things are bound they are bound together until they are separated. The Heralds were suppose to be bound to the Oathpact, and that obviously didn't last forever. But you do have a point about Sadeas... perhaps I could add Shardplate to the idea as well? I don't remember if it is bound like Shardblades though, but if it is, Sadeas does have Shardplate. I may be stretching to find things that fit my theory though... so take it with a grain of salt. I guess I was lumping Gravity and Pressure together, wasn't aware they were two different Surges. That's okay though, I never said this theory was perfect. As far as the Chasmfiends, I was just go off on tangents by that point. Exactly! It's been said that Odium has some rules he must follow, but there's only one that has been hinted at: A Champion. Well what of other rules? I'd imagine that the Oathpact was full of rules, and typically something like a pact won't favor one side more than the other. If the people of Honor/Cultivation didn't have the means to fight fairly, what kind of pact would that be? Obviously it's difficult to get a lot of the specific details of the Oathpact right now with our limited knowledge, but I think if Odium was bound to the Oathpact, he would have to give up something in return. So it's possible, at the very least, that he had to provide mankind with the means to fight back against his own creations, according to the Oathpact. Ultimately this is just a theory, please try and poke holes in it. These type of discussions are good Thanks for the comments.

Ok, so I thought about continuing in my thread here, since that's where all of my thinking began. But this is a separate theory and I think it deserves it's own. Thanks to skaa's post, and probably a few others, I think I may have a clue as to what lead to the Oathpact. What if the Oathpact came down to a philisophical difference between Honor/Cultivation and Odium? If given power, what would sentient beings do with it? Be honorable and save people? Or destroy? Because of this, I think I'm starting to understand the layout of Surgbinding chart. I believe that the Ten Surges may come Honor and Cultivation (5 each), and that each order comes from a combination of 1 Surge from Honor and 1 Surge from Cultivation. Furthermore, I think that all Shardblades come from Odium. I'll try and explain my thought process of how I came to this conclusion. First off, I don't agree with everything in skaa's post that I linked, but I do agree that Shardblades come from Odium. Anyone who has a Shardblade is bound to it, and it seems like anyone who speaks of the Thrill is bound to a Shardblade. It has been said that the Thrill basically makes men into more efficient killing machines. Shardblades are also very destructive weapons, along the lines of Odium. BUT... they don't force men to do the horrible things they do, mankind has merely been given a tool and it is up to them to decide how to use it. Next, in some of Dalinar's visions, I remember there being a scene where he saw a woman from the Knights Radiant heal someone. This sounds VERY cultivation-y (New word?). IIRC all the Radiants were all considered Surgebinders. I think the Radiant who healed may have been using some kind of fabrial, or atleast using infused gemstones to power whatever Healing Surge she possessed. So my interpretation of the Surges we've seen thus far is they are fueled by Honor (Gravity) and Cultivation (Healing), and a combination of the two lead to an Order (I think it'd be kinda cool to see Kaladin have the Healing Surge as his second one, since he's also a surgeon). I don't know that we've seen anyone use both Surges they have available to them, but I may be wrong on that. If I am correct, and I'm not saying I am, then it would support my other short theory on the importance of symmetry (Each order has 1 Surge from Honor, and 1 Surge from Cultivation). Also, like I explain in the following paragraph, each side essentially equal. This obviously leads to a very important question: What about Voidbinding? Well... I haven't gotten that far yet. I do believe, though, that they are given the same tools: A magic system fueled by Honor and Cultivation (though perverted, or maybe inversed) and Shardblades from Odium. Both sides are given the same tools, which will prevail? I also think Stone plays an important roll in both magic system, but I haven't quite figured that part out either. There are hints from the Shin, who believe walking on and carving Stone is blasphemy, and also think that using Stormlight as decoration is profane. It's also been hinted that Chasmfiends, which contain Gemhearts, are not fully developed. Perhaps they eventually grow into massive Stone creatures that can be controlled through binding? And since they are naturally occuring in world, perhaps that comes from Cultivation? We know that Gemhearts are used in Soulcasting, so it may not be too much of a stretch to imagine. But then again, maybe it is. The more I think on these things, the bigger headache I get. It seems like we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, on Roshar. The scope of these Magic systems, and how they have influence on the world is just mind blowing *blasting sound and head explodes* /dead