Urithiru based on new info

[Miyabi]

I KNOW I'm a little late to this party, because I haven't been around, but I have a theory about Urithiru in regards to the interlude with the Parshendi viewpoint.

 

IMO Urithiru is the shattered Plains.  Think about it, Uruthiru should be symmetrical.  There are mentions made that the Plains, if looked at from high enough above appear at least somewhat symmetrical.  Wasn't there a picture of the city vibration things the Ardent made?  Does what little of the Plains we see resemble that? 

 

Remember that in the Parshendi chapter they talk of the buildings they live in being basically the Plains.

 

The city, before being abandoned by the Heralds and the KR would have been inaccessible by foot(most likely).  This means it could have existed in Shadesmar, so potentially, someone who could make it to Shadesmar COULD walk to Urithiru.  Without the powers of the Heralds and KR (in a similar fashion to the way the Shardplate stopped glowing) may have coalesced into the physical realm.  No one would know where it was.  No one would clean the crem from it, and over time, the crem would build and build.

[Shardlet]

Well, in Kaladin's storm dream he does see a pattern in the shattered plains and a light at the center of the plains.  However, Dalinar says that it seems like their should be a pattern but the extent of the Alethi maps does not display any apparent pattern.  As to the cymatic images Kabsal produces, he shows four to Shallan and Jasnah asks if the plate shows a pattern for Urithuru and Kabsal declares Urithuru to be a myth.  (Tangent: since the Vorinism holds the KR and the Heralds to be genuine history, why are they so fussy about Urithuru being a myth?)  Anyway, no image of Urithuru (yet).  The rub of course with Urithuru being in the Shattered Plains is that we have an indication from the book that Urithuru is located west of Alethela (Alethkar) while the plains are to the East.  Also, Jasnah is forcefully adamant that Urithuru is not in the plains when Shallan pushes this idea.  Not conclusive, I know.  But, compelling. 

[Miyabi]

Ugh, I typed this once and hit back on accident and it deleted it. UGH!

In regards to Urithiru being to the west. One of my claims is that Urithiru was originally in Shadesmar, since space is different in Shadesmar, Urithiru, in its location there, could very well have been west of Alethkar. Though it's transference to the physical realm may have placed it where the Shattered Plains are now.

The Alethi appear to be a very logical in your face type people. Shardplate and Shardblades, the tools of the KR exist, therefore they must have existed at some point. The only things from Urithiru left are stories, usually found in books like TWoK, which most people dislike.

When Jasnah and Shallan are discussing the Shattered Plains, the question is if Urithiru is ON the Plains, deep at their center. Not whether or not the Plains ARE Urithiru, buried in years and years of crem. Also, they are under the assumption that Urithiru would be physically west of Alethkar.

The face that MOST people couldn't walk to Urithiru helps to support that it may have been in Shadesmar in the beginning. The author of TWoK (whose name escapes me atm) said he walked there. Who's to say he can't enter Shadesmar same as Shallan, Jasnah, and Hoid?

[Aethling]

The East/West issue may not be as big of an issue as it seems.  People do tend to migrate from time to time.  If you move far enough to the West, eventually what would have been west of the origin point is actually to the east.

 

Not saying I buy the idea that the city was on the plains, but the directional issue can be explained away fairly easily.

[Shardlet]

The rub is, we have a map of the silver kingdoms (including Alethela) and a modern map showing present day Alethkar.  In both cases, the plains are to the East.

[Miyabi]

Moving this discussion from another topic which can be foundhere.

WoB is that things in the Cognitive Realm have a different Spacial relation than they do in the Physical. (i.e. a place which is 100 miles apart Physically may only be 1 in the Cognitive.)

This could create a number of instances where it was in a Spacial strange place if you took Shadesmar exactly as it was Spacially and laid that on top of Roshar.

They say that you can't walk to Urithiru... well you can't really walk to Shadesmar, BUT Nohadon had apparently managed it. This could be due to a Surge he had access to. Perhaps the Craters were set of entrances each nation could use to access Urithiru.

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”

This seems to help to solidify my thoughts of Spacial differentiation playing a part. You see here someone is able to travel through Urithiru and go to Kholinar and then back to Urithiru and then to a city in Veden within a single day.

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

—Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

The only source which we have saying for certain that Urithiru is west of Alethkar is an old translated version of a text. Perhaps the world "westward" is improperly translated.

What is the place nearest Honor? Where is Honor supposed to be? Perhaps the word is translated correctly, but is there really a word to properly describe traveling to a different Realm of existence?

Also, the place through which Nohadon supposedly walked from to Urithiru was Abamabar, which we know almost nothing about and isn't on any maps. Similar to the way in which Urithiru is. Maybe both existed in Shadesmar.

Another option here could be that they were both in a Spiritual Realm which we don't have a map of.

“They lived high atop a place no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man.”

—Though The Song of the Last Summer is a fanciful tale of romance from the third century after the Recreance, it is likely a valid reference in this case. See page 27 of Varala’s translation, and note the undertext.

No one can reach it, but all can visit. This to me sounds as if referring to a place that isn't of the Physical Realm. You could go to those places for a time, but you then had to return back to the Physical Realm.

There's also the fact that the city's main feature is "The tower." I don't think it's a coincidence.

When the Oathpact was broken it is possible that whatever allowed Urithiru to only exist in the plain that it did, whether that be Shadesmar or the Spiritual Realm was also broken.

When something migrates from one Realm to another we aren't exactly sure what happens. Shardblades are stored in the Spiritual Realm, but when they are summoned to the Physical Realm they appear exactly where the Bearer wanted it to.

Also, as you stated the Realms are connected in some way. I don't think that when Urithiru melded into the Physical Realm it just plopped out of the sky. I would imagine the Realms made room for it to squeeze into place.

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!”

This could be referring to someone regaining the title "Herald of the Almight," becoming their King, restoring the tower to its former glory (Since it says you the tower needs to be picked up.) The implication here is that Urithiru isn't as it used to be for one reason or another. Edited September 11, 2013 by Miyabi

[Shardlet]

WoB is that things in the Cognitive Realm have a different Spacial relation than they do in the Physical. (i.e. a place which is 100 miles apart Physically may only be 1 in the Cognitive.)

 

I agree that spacial relationships are different in Shadesmar.  But, I would expect them to be compressed and that relative locations are the same.  Imagine a sheet of spandex and draw 100 dots on it while it is stretched.  When you relax the spandex, the dots all move closer together but are in the same relative position.  I think that such a condition would need to be the case, otherwise travel through Shadesmar would not be particularly accurate (i.e., it would have been very impressive for Hoid to hop into the Well chamber to get the lerasium without some serious predictability).

 

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!”

 

Personally I suspect this refers to Dalinar (or Elhokar) and perhaps coupled with Kaladin.  The glyphs representing the Kholin family are the tower and the crown (you can see the glyphpair at the start of every Dalinar POV chapter) and the spear possibly being a reference to Kaladin.

[Miyabi]

I don't remember exactly where it was stated, but he said something about how one space could be different than another based on the Cognitive (and I assume it's the same with Spiritual) activity of the place. So somewhere like Alethkar where there is a lot of Cognition going on might be about the same size, but say the Purelake would be significantly smaller, mainly due to smaller population, but also due to lack of higher forms of thinking.

[Gloom]

That doesn't change what Shardlet said. Places would still remain in the same relative position. If Urithiru was west of Alethikar, it would remain west of it. Traveling from place to place inside Shadesmar will likely require traveling the seas of the cognitive realm until such a time as Urithiru is found or rebuilt.

 

If Urithiru was in Shadesmar, it would have been NW of Alethikar, but if you look at the map of Shadesmar, that could still translate to east of Alethikar in the physical realm. The landmasses of Shadesmar don't correspond with the land masses of Roshar. So I could still see the Shattered Plains being the resting place of Urithiru because they would have needed Urithiru to be on land in both realms. If Urithiru was far to the east on the continent in Shadesmar it may appear far east in the physical realm even though it was actually west of Alethikar historically when traveling from the physical to the cognitive.

[Miyabi]

It most certainly could have been. Though the way different parts of the land expanded and others were smaller 1,000 miles NW may equivocate to 1 mile SW making the journey shorter to go NW and around the world in the Cogntive or Spritual Realm, whereas is the Physical realm it would be faster to go SW.

Though I'm leaning more to the fact that the word "westward" was translated incorrectly considering there is a specific note saying that it's the earliest known translation, but she wished she could read Dawnchant in order to make her own translation. That factored into the fact that characters are now learning Dawnchant through Dalinar's vision-mumblings makes this seem more likely the case. I just also like to discuss Realmatic Theory.

[Gloom]

I'm not sure I explained myself properly. It's difficult without being able to point at the maps. Basically land is sea, sea is land. Shadesmar is inverted from Roshar as far as land and water are concerned. The Oceans of Shadesmar correspond to the location of the land in Roshar. The far eastern shore of Shadesmar is  north west of Alethela, and Urithiru would have been located in a sea in the northern sea of Roshar. To move Urithiru to Roshar, it would have had to be placed on land. If it was in south eastern Shadesmar, it could have appeared in south eastern Roshar. The energy transference from moving a city from Shadesmar to Roshar could have shattered the plains. This could have also been the calamity that struck Nantanatan.

 

It would make sense that Urithiru would be in south eastern Shadesmar because Shadesmar is northwest of Alethela. It is also possible that there was indeed an altitude issue as well because the map of Shadesmar shows all land masses as mountainous. Travel to Shadesmar from Roshar was more than likely always done from the Roshar mainland and would have placed any travelers on the sea that Jasnah and Shallan ended up on.

 

Now, if the Radiants moved Urithiru after the Recreance, then they most likely would have had to do the calculations themselves as Jasnah at least appeared to do for the boulder. This could have led to errors on the part of the soulcasters involved. Alternatively, Urithiru may have been expelled from Shadesmar because of the actions of the KR at the Recreance.

 

I brought up calculations because Jasnah seemed to require them for the boulder, or at least knew that someone operating a soulcaster fabrial would require them. She didn't seem to require anything for the men she soulcast into various essences though so she may not actually need them, or a rough estimate was good enough.

[Miyabi]

Right, I understand what you meant and I understand what Shadesmar looks like. I feel like I may not have explained myself correctly. If you look at Aimia and the Purelake, they are similar in size on both maps. However, when you are in Shadesmar the Purelake could be 100 miles across and Aimia could be 1000 miles. The space is different there than it is here and isn't necessarily consistent. So the easiest way to get to Urithiru would have been to travel west and enter Shadesmar.

Though the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the word 'westward' was mistranslated from the Dawnchant. It seems to me that it was more likely to be the case considering someone could travel from Urithiru > Kholinar > Veden City in a single day, I think it is likely that each city had some way perhaps a gateway (I remember reading something regarding gates and Urithiru but I can't find it for the life of me) that would take them directly to Urithiru, but these were lost when the city fell to the Physical Plain.

I don't think anyone moved Urithiru, I feel you may have misunderstood what I meant. What I was trying to say is that some power, either from the KR or the Heralds or the Oathpact, was holding Urithiru where it was, anchoring it there, and when this power was lost it wasn't able to only exist in the other Plain so it melded into the Physical world. The city I would think would have appeared very similar to the way it did in its original state at first, though over time, being unattended for thousands of years, the buildings would just slowly become covered in crem, creating what is now called the Shattered Plains.

Much in the same way that if I Shardbearer dies his Blade comes back to the Physical Plain from the Spiritual, because the Bond isn't holding it there anymore so it can't sustain itself.

[Windrunner]

I brought up calculations because Jasnah seemed to require them for the boulder, or at least knew that someone operating a soulcaster fabrial would require them. She didn't seem to require anything for the men she soulcast into various essences though so she may not actually need them, or a rough estimate was good enough.

I interpreted that as her wanting to test Shallan's competency at mathematics but I could be wrong.

 

Though the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the word 'westward' was mistranslated from the Dawnchant. It seems to me that it was more likely to be the case considering someone could travel from Urithiru > Kholinar > Veden City in a single day, I think it is likely that each city had some way perhaps a gateway (I remember reading something regarding gates and Urithiru but I can't find it for the life of me) that would take them directly to Urithiru, but these were lost when the city fell to the Physical Plain.

I assume you mean the Oathgates?

“Within a heartbeat, Alezarv was there, crossing a distance that would have taken longer than four months travel by foot.”

--Another folk tale, this one recorded in Among the Darkeyed, by Calinam. Page 102. Stories of instantaneous travel and the Oathgates pervade these tales.

[Miyabi]

YES! That was exactly what I was talking about. lol. Upvote for you.

[Gloom]

If Urithiru is the city on the Shattered Plains, I seriously doubt it arrived quietly. Something shattered the entire area. That wasn't the effect of the High Storms. They don't do that anywhere else. The Shattered Plains are in their current state because of some kind of energy release, either natural or supernatural. Urithiru falling from the sky, or being forced from Shadesmar to occupy the same space as something that was already there could explain this. Urithiru quietly appearing in a shimmer like a hidden city suddenly revealed does not.

 

In an earlier post you pointed out that the Alethi were very literal minded. I have no doubt that a Storm Rider would be able to fully grasp the geography of Alethelar, and little doubt that they could do the same in Shadesmar. I don't think that westward was a translation error, because any solid construction in Shadesmar would either have to be west of Alethelar, or built in the seas of Shadesmar. I'm theorizing that IF Urithiru was in Shadesmar, it would have been the Northern continent because then it would have been built in the south eastern area of Shadesmar which is closest to Alethelar. To me it would make sense that in the event that Urithiru was moved from Shadesmar, by force or design, it would also appear in the south east of Roshar which is where the Shattered Plains are located.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Gloom

[Shardlet]

IDK, my money is on Urithuru being at the purelake in either the physical or Shadesmar. 

Dalinar did see a rather substantial city/edifice in the purelake in the reading.

  So, until we get more information, I am going to suggest that Urithuru was previously in the physical realm Purelake and now is in Shadesmar at the corresponding purlake location. 

Edited September 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[Looter]

That is my thought as well. But I can imagine it is not so simple as that. One thing I was thinking is what if there is an armory there for all shard blades when not summoned and it currently resides under the water or at least those shadesmar water beads in place of water. Meh random thought.

As I said I think you may have the idea shardlet.

[11thorderknight]

I just realized something - is there any other place in Way of Kings that uses the words "east" or "west" other than the reference to Urithiru being "westward"? IIRC, all current-day references use the terms "stormward" and "leeward" to refer to east and west, respectively. If this is the only reference, it could be a strong indicator that the Highstorms didn't exist at the time of the Radiants. Which obviously would have further implications...

[Windrunner]

There are dozens of places where east or west is mentioned. Sorry

[Oudeis]

Epigraph of Chapter 35: "And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor"

 

I don't think Urithiru went to the Shattered Plains from Shadesmar. I think it was the Shattered Plains all along.

 

First, yes, I'm counting on Jasnah's notes on a mistranslation that the word was never meant to be "westward". Maybe it wasn't even a direction, maybe it was to be "placed quickly" or something.

 

Second, I'm thinking about "the place nearest to Honor"

 

I'm gonna get a little Cosmere up in here, so bear with me:

 

(Spoilers below for other books in the cosmere. First, Mistborn)

My assumption is that one Scadrial, the "place nearest Preservation" would be the Well of Ascension. It is where his cognitive aspect was located (the Well itself) and his physical aspect (the Lerasium, both in Vin's time and a thousand years ago). The "place nearest Ruin" would be the Pits, where Ruin's body regenerated, and was most frequently located. True, his cognitive aspect was trapped at the Well, but against his will. One is his house, one is his prison.

 

One thing I'd like to note now that will come up in the next spoiler: The bodies of gods (easier than having to keep typing out "the physical aspects of Shards") are integral to Investiture on the planet. Atium is a metal, like any other metal required for the Metallic Arts, yet it fundamentally isn't. It grows back, in a way that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. I think this is going to hold true in other cosmere books.

 

(Spoilers for Warbreaker)

Again assuming, the "place nearest Endowment" would be T'Telir. It's where the Tears of Edgli grow. Per my previous spoiler, a god's body is integral to the world's investiture, and it is someting that regenerates. Awakening drains the color from things. What if Endowment's body is the color in the Tears? It's a dye like any other, and yet somehow not. It works better, more vibrantly than other dyes. And for reasons that people think they can explain, they only grow in this one spot on the planet.

 

So. Where is nearest to Honor in Roshar? Where then is Honor's body?

 

If you didn't read the above, my basic point is that "the place nearest" a god is where that god's body is produced. A god's body is integral to the world's system of magic. It is a thing very much like a natural substance, but different in some important way, and it grows back.

 

It isn't Stormlight. That's simply the energy of Surgebinding. What is the catalyst?

 

Gems.

 

And what gems are very much LIKE other gems, but clearly different in some fundamental way? Which gems grow? Which gems can be constantly harvested?

 

Gemhearts.

 

All greatshells produce gemhearts. But where are the biggest? Where are the ones all of Alethi are astounded to see? The Chasmfiends of the Shattered Plains. The beings that the Parshendi, with their poor grasp of the Alethi tongue, call Gods. Or maybe... the body of God?

 

I think West is a mistranslation.

(Spoiler for Mistborn)

Or like the Well being 'to the north' on Scadrial, an indication that the world changed THAT much since the quote was first written.

 

I think that Urithiru was placed nearest Honor, which means the place that the Chasmfiends gather, which is the Shattered Plains. What I frankly think is most likely is that the plains were never shattered. I agree with the theory that they're just covered in crem. Dalinar himself on the Tower commented that it looked like a field of low walls, covered in snow. That got me thinking... what if someone saw a field covered in snow... and Soulcast the snow into stone? Wouldn't that be what this looked like?

 

Maybe it's crem from the storms. Maybe it's Soulcasting. I don't know. What I do believe, however, is that the city of Urithiru is, and always was, at the Shattered Plains. Which were never actually Shattered.

[Gloom]

Page 182. The plains are Shattered, except the ten camps. If you're right, the shattering of the plains may be the physical manifestation of the shattering of the Honorshard, but their most certainly was a shattering. One could also argue that according to your own theory Closest to Honor may be closest to the Origin.

[Shardlet]

This isn't necessarily a criticism of your theory.  It is well thought out and presented.  But some spoiler info that has some bearing on it is

In the Rsyn Interlude reading from WoR we learn that there are enormously huge greatshell which live in the Reshi sea that people live on like islands.  These, being so vastly much larger than chasmfiends, are very likely to have even larger gemhearts than the chasmfiends.  Also, part of the scouring of Aimia was in quest for gemhearts from the greatshells there.

  So, this may affect your consideration of the plains being the place closest to honor.

[Oudeis]

Page 182. The plains are Shattered, except the ten camps. If you're right, the shattering of the plains may be the physical manifestation of the shattering of the Honorshard, but their most certainly was a shattering. One could also argue that according to your own theory Closest to Honor may be closest to the Origin.

My version is Nook, and the pages don't line up. Can you please give me a chapter? Thank you!

 

I'm not sure I agree with you that the Origin is closest to Honor. No one conflates the Stormfather with the Almighty, as far as I can see, in the books. And the Stormfather is clearly suggested as the Herald Jezrien.

 

Mistborn comparison:

I think that Stormlight is like steel or zinc on Scadrial. It's a power source of Investiture, but that doesn't make it the body of a god.

 

I'll grant you that there's no reason we can't assume that after 4,500 years people got their mythologies confused, and maybe Honor was the Stormfather, but right now I don't see any reason to assume so. I still think there's more reason to believe that "closest to Honor" means the Plains, where the largest gemhearts are found.

[Oudeis]

This isn't necessarily a criticism of your theory.  It is well thought out and presented.  But some spoiler info that has some bearing on it is

In the Rsyn Interlude reading from WoR we learn that there are enormously huge greatshell which live in the Reshi sea that people live on like islands.  These, being so vastly much larger than chasmfiends, are very likely to have even larger gemhearts than the chasmfiends.  Also, part of the scouring of Aimia was in quest for gemhearts from the greatshells there.

  So, this may affect your consideration of the plains being the place closest to honor.

I remember that part, and I'll read it again, but I don't recall them saying that the Greatshells there were LARGER than on the plains, just that they existed, like they exist in Marabethia (Chapter 40, Eyes of Red and Blue). Sigzil says they have Greatshells, "and of course they have gemhearts", so presumably there are other places in the world where large, carapaced beings grow gemhearts. I realize this makes for a bit of a weakness in my theory, but I still say that even if Greatshells do grow Gemhearts elsewhere in Roshar, there's something special about the ones in the Plains. There's no reference to Greatshells pupating anywhere but on the Plains. And there's talk of the specific spren that hover around dead chasmfiends, which aren't reference anywhere else.

 

Perhaps all greatshells were once on the Plains, but after Honor splintered, whatever kept them all their failed. Now some have migrated to other parts of the world, perhaps interbreeding or mutating to fit new ecologies.

 

EDIT cuz I caught a mistake I made: Sorry, I misread your original post, Shardlet. I thought you said it was during Rysn's interlude in TWoK, because I recall something about there once being Greatshells on the Western Coast, in Aimia or something, but I just re-read and saw you were talking about WoR. So, yes, you have information I don't. It looks like I could be wrong. Oh well, it was just a theory.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Darnam

[Gloom]

My version is Nook, and the pages don't line up. Can you please give me a chapter? Thank you!

 

The map preceding chapter 12.

 

'Observer', on 25 Sept 2012 - 20:58, said:

/>One question really quick: What are the smoke-y spren that appear around a dead chasmfiend?

 

['Brandon']

They are in a symbiotic relationship with the chasmfiend, and are part of what allow the creatures to grow to the size they do with an exoskeleton. (Along with a high-oxygen, lower-gravity world.)