16 replies to this topic

[Wisp_of_color_99]

This is my first time posting to 17th Shard, but I read on here how Brandon said that there are other characters besides Hoid and the three we saw in WoK that were chasing him, and he made it more obvious in WoK than in any other book. So my theory is this, is Tonk Fah posing as Shallan's brother? We didn't see him in Warbreaker after Denth died, and he displays the smae cruel and silly ways as he tortures animals in the Interlude in which he is the viewpoint characters, just a thought.

[Brassmind]

My initial instinct says no. First, I just found Nan Balat's interlude again and he says he doesn't want to kill people, only small animals. (Remember that Parlin was the unfortunate victim of Tonk Fah.) Secondly, Brandon says more than once — I think in the Warbreaker annotations — that Tonk Fah is basically a completely evil/destructive waste of flesh. Even for someone who likes to torture small animals, Nan Balat seems gentler than that. The personalities don't seem to match up. So, at least at the time the interlude takes place, I don't think Tonk Fah is pretending to be Nan Balat or vice versa. I'm also not sure if the timelines of the two books line up; my personal notes say there are several hundred years between Warbreaker and WoK, but the wiki's down so I can't check.

Now, if Nan Balat has been known to disappear for months at a time (I don't think Shallan mentions any such thing, but I'd have to reread all of WoK to be sure), it might be a theory worth investigating some more.

[Morsk]

We had Nan Balat's PoV, and he views the entire family as being broken by their father's abuse, except for Shallan. It's probably why he tortures animals, although he doesn't say it outright. But he definitely grew up with Shallan, and had the same father.

[Aethling]

Until we know more about HOW they worldhop, there is really no way to tell. The idea is an interesting one, though. We know brandon has said that Hoid has only gone forward in time. Considering he was there at the very beginning, all of the books so far would be considered forward. We have Elantris and Mistborn characters showing up in SLA. Again, those would be forward through time. If this holds true, the only way that Tonk Fah could do it would be if he was actually from the Warbreaker world and hopped to fake being the eldest brother. That might just have been his way of averting Vasher's wrath.


IF this theory is true, that makes at least one character from each of his other Cosmere series in TWOK.

Galladon from Elantris
Demoux from Mistborn
Tonk Fah from Warbreaker

and, of course, Hoid.

I doubt we have seen a character yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if an Alloy character winds up showing his facer in SL2 or beyond.

Edited by Aethling, 24 June 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Pre5to]

Ha anyone considered the possibility of a worldhopping kandra? I wonder if that third person is TenSoon, or if he is still alive somewhere, hope so. (I think it is possible, after all I think that there souls were in the spikes, not their bodies, so when they died they didn't move on as Vin and Elend did. All Harmony would have had to do was put the spikes back in a mistwraith and, voilah, TenSoon, the worldhopper.)

Also has anyone considered the similarity between the name Worldhopper and Worldbringer. I'm starting to think that Sazed created, or at least has a hand in running the 17th Shard, which in turn is, in combination with Demoux and Galladon being presumed members of the shard, starting to make me wonder if Hoid is really the good guy we all seem to presume.

(Sorry for the theory ramble.)

[CrazyRioter]

the third member is from an as yet unpublished book, so we don't know who that is yet and won't until said book gets published.

[Aethling]

Well, Hoid was already hopping around before Mistborn, so I doubt that Sazed had anything to do with the creation of the 17 shard.

Now, the part about the third member being from an unpublished book is interesting. I had forgotten that. Let's see. Alloy was unpublished at the time that SLA was released. Still, I doubt that one of the characters from there has made it into SLA2 simply because of how Alloy came into being, unless I am seriously misunderstanding how Alloy came about.

[CrazyRioter]

I think the unpublished book comment was made after Alloy was released, and also Alloy was originally just a short story Brandon wrote while plotting how the Mistborn world develops between the first and second trilogy.

[zas678]

I seriously doubt that Tonk Fah is a worldhopper. He's pretty crazy to be an interworld ambassador. Unless Odium has his own group of world hoppers *shudders*.

But even then, as was said above, Tonk Fah is different personality wise than Shallan's brother. Just because two characters share a similar trait doesn't mean they're the same person.


And I think that it's not coincidence that Worldsingers and Worldbringers are similar. I mean what are they there for: to remember the past, to tell stories, and help spred knowledge.

And, it so happens they're not the only ones:

Some scholars have expressed amusement that this symbol should come to mean intelligence in a broad sense, as the classical meaning of Aon Ene was far more narrow. Ene was the Aon which represented cleverness, the ability to outwit and outthink opponents. It was often applied in stories and tales to those who had a slyness about them, and often was the symbol which represented the trickster figure. Indeed, those who played tricks on others were said to be Enefels—literally, Wit Killers, or those who kill with wit.
During the Middle Era, when Elantris's influence expanded and the kingdom of Arelon began to take shape, Aon Ene was attributed to the guild of storytellers who brought tales of the marvels in Elantris. It was often rumored that these people, who took upon themselves the Enefel name, were agents of the Elantrians. Their purpose was to spread good will about the city and its inhabitants, calming the rural populace, who regarded Elantris and its magics with suspicion.


Over the centuries, this guild of storytellers transformed into a more scholarly group who gathered stories and histories from the people. By the dawn of the Late Era—about two centuries before the fall of Elantris—the group had burgeoned beyond its origins into several distinct sects of scholars and philosophers. By the time of the fall of Elantris, the constant association of this group with Aon Ene expanded its meaning into the more familiar use, representing scholarly intelligence and study.

SOURCE

I would bet a Lerasium bead that Hoid had something to do with starting (or at least encouraging) both the Enefels and the Worldbringers, and likely is a major player as a Worldsinger as well. (Worldsinger is the group that's mentioned in Way of Kings, and Worldbringers were pre-Ascension keepers who kept prophecies of the Hero of Ages).

As for an evil Hoid? I don't think so. I hope not. He seems like a decent person. Plus, with what we've seen of him, he's always helping the "good guys". He leads Terrisman refugees, tries to pass information to Kelsier, Vin, and Siri, and has all sorts of plans in the Way of Kings. I just don't think that Brandon would tie the Cosmere around a bad guy.

[ReaderAt2046]

As for an evil Hoid? I don't think so. I hope not. He seems like a decent person. Plus, with what we've seen of him, he's always helping the "good guys". He leads Terrisman refugees, tries to pass information to Kelsier, Vin, and Siri, and has all sorts of plans in the Way of Kings. I just don't think that Brandon would tie the Cosmere around a bad guy.

I personally suspect that the 17th Shard is looking for Hoid because they want to apologize and offer him the headship back (mostly because this seems a very Brandony twist to me.)

[Aethling]

It would take some big convincing and evidence for me to believe that Hoid is evil. Not that I believe his is completely good either. Heck, I do not even believe he is human, but that belief is mostly just from an off comment in the Mistborn series.

[Yados]

I seriously doubt that Tonk Fah is a worldhopper. He's pretty crazy to be an interworld ambassador. Unless Odium has his own group of world hoppers *shudders*.

But even then, as was said above, Tonk Fah is different personality wise than Shallan's brother. Just because two characters share a similar trait doesn't mean they're the same person.


And I think that it's not coincidence that Worldsingers and Worldbringers are similar. I mean what are they there for: to remember the past, to tell stories, and help spred knowledge.

And, it so happens they're not the only ones:



I would bet a Lerasium bead that Hoid had something to do with starting (or at least encouraging) both the Enefels and the Worldbringers, and likely is a major player as a Worldsinger as well. (Worldsinger is the group that's mentioned in Way of Kings, and Worldbringers were pre-Ascension keepers who kept prophecies of the Hero of Ages).

As for an evil Hoid? I don't think so. I hope not. He seems like a decent person. Plus, with what we've seen of him, he's always helping the "good guys". He leads Terrisman refugees, tries to pass information to Kelsier, Vin, and Siri, and has all sorts of plans in the Way of Kings. I just don't think that Brandon would tie the Cosmere around a bad guy.

Sure, and overthrowing the Lord Ruler seemed like a really great plan until we got the bigger picture of what was going on on Scadriel and who was keeping who in check.

It could come down to perspective. Hoid could be a perfectly nice fellow doing a perfectly good thing like, say, restoring Adonalsium. But who's to say that the ultimate price for that wouldn't be life in the Cosmere as it exists?

He could be like the Doctor. Reasonable and funny until you get in his way or his priorities change.

We've seen many absolute monsters in the Cosmere books who have been in pursuit of admirable goals.

Why not an admirable man who's up to something quite sinister?

[LightReader]

Upvote for the comparison between Hoid and the Doctor. They really do have a lot in common: highly inteligent, witty, time traveling (though Hoid only moves forwards), longevity, a compulsion to intervene in the affairs of other worlds, insatiable curiosity, etc.

I think Hoid is way to cool to be a bad guy... and he does try to help Dalinar. Though I agree it could be possible that while his intentions are good, the consequences of his interventions may not always be what is really best for the cosmere.

[Aethling]

The thing where Sanderson said Hoid only moves forward in time could be a red herring. The shattering precedes all of the events in the current cosmere books. He could go from Elantris to TWOK to Mistborn to Warbreaker and still be going forward in time from where he began. That would be a very Aes Sedai way of putting it, as the statement is technically true, but also misleading if that is what actually happened (which is just a presumption).

[ReaderAt2046]

The thing where Sanderson said Hoid only moves forward in time could be a red herring. The shattering precedes all of the events in the current cosmere books. He could go from Elantris to TWOK to Mistborn to Warbreaker and still be going forward in time from where he began. That would be a very Asha'man way of putting it, as the statement is technically true, but also misleading if that is what actually happened (which is just a presumption).

Since Brandon is a man.

[Yados]

Since Brandon is a man.

Yeah, but then the reference doesn't make sense. Asha'man do not obfuscate the meaning of their statements because they're bound to tell to tell the truth.

It would be an Aes Sedai way of putting it.

Plus Aes Sedai is technically a gender neutral term. Lews Therin is an Aes Sedai.

[ReaderAt2046]

Yeah, but then the reference doesn't make sense. Asha'man do not obfuscate the meaning of their statements because they're bound to tell to tell the truth.

It would be an Aes Sedai way of putting it.

Plus Aes Sedai is technically a gender neutral term. Lews Therin is an Aes Sedai.

Upvote for catching me making a mistake!