13 replies to this topic

[Vortaan]

EDITED TO REVEAL SPOILERS FOR WAY OF KINGS AND HERO OF AGES



Theory: Shardblades and Shardplate are the physical aspect of Odium and Honor.

Points in favor:

1) The header for Chapter 57 from Hero of Ages reads as follows:

I have come to see that each power has three aspects: a physical one, which can be seen in the creations made by Ruin and Preservation; a spiritual one in the unseen energy that permeates all of the world; and a cognitive one in the minds that controlled that energy.
There is more to this. Much more that even I do not yet comprehend.

Assuming that all Shards function somewhat the same, this would mean that Honor and Odium both have a physical, spiritual and cognitive aspect. Looking at Roshar from what we know, we've seen evidence of both the cognitive aspects. We have seen evidence of the spiritual aspects in stormlight and the unknown energy that powers Voidbinding. However, there has been no example of a physical aspect. Looking again at Ruin and Preservation, the physical aspect was something that was physically present in the world that gave great power to people. Taking atium as example, it does not follow natural laws. Both of these statements seem to apply to Shardplate and Shardblades.

2) Syl, an honorspren, seems to have an issue with Shardblades. Syl also has a very dramatic response to the name of Odium. We do not have a direct quote of her disliking Shardplate, however. So what could be the difference between Plate and Blade? People tend to lump them together, but Plate seems to function very differently than Blades do. In fact, while Blades work on humans, I put forth that their intended purpose was always to attack creatures made of stone. This is why Blades work so well on stone and inanimate objects, but only kill people. On this note, the eyes burning out effect of Blades seems to be more in line with Odium than Honor.

3) The Oathpact. Part of my theory contends that the Oathpact was an agreement between Honor and Odium. Odium would be able to send Voidbringers to Roshar, conquering humanity for reasons unknown. Honor would be able to keep 10 chosen Heralds alive to lead mankind against the Voidbringers. However, Odium would get the chance to break the will of the Heralds after each Desolation, and Honor would gain the use of Odium's physical aspect to arm humanity against the Voidbringers.

So that's the theory. Shardblades are the physical element of Odium's power, Shardplate is the physical element of Honor's. Discuss!

Edited by Vortaan, 16 January 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Aiken Frost]

Uhm, very cool theory. I like it.

[spacemonkey]

Hmm. The main problem I have with this theory is that there was a visible change in the Shardblades when they were abandoned by the Knights Radiant, and Brandon has stated definitively that the Recreance occurred after the Oathpact was broken. In his visions, Dalinar sees that the Shardblades and Plate glowed while the Radiants wore them, but the glow vanished when they gave them up. Possibly, it was their bearers' decision to break their vows- a violation of their honor, one might say- that caused the change.

I agree with your conclusions about the Oathpact, though. Some sort of bargain between Honor and Odium sounds plausible. We know Ruin and Preservation did the same thing, after all.

[Inevitable]

I've seen this idea that the Shardblades are creations of Odium pop up a lot here.

I'm wondering if this is hypothesising or if there's a quote out there?

Just to add my thoughts, I sincerely doubt this is the case. Rather, I suspect that Syl's objection to Shardblades comes from, essentially, wrong ownership. We know that Shardblades/plates behaved differently in the hands of the Knights Radient. Something they do makes it work better and maybe it's a simple case of ritualised ownership. As far as Syl's concerned, anyone using Shards now is a thief. This is dishonourable, hence her issue with it. As the Knights Radient clearly fought against Odium, it would make no sense for them to be connected, even under the premise of this Oathpact idea (which is actually rather good for the most part). After all, if the Shardblades were created from Odium's power, then that is rendered meaninless by the fact that they proceed to fight Odium, thus Syl shouldn't behave so upset.

[Vortaan]

I've seen this idea that the Shardblades are creations of Odium pop up a lot here.

I'm wondering if this is hypothesising or if there's a quote out there?

Just to add my thoughts, I sincerely doubt this is the case. Rather, I suspect that Syl's objection to Shardblades comes from, essentially, wrong ownership. We know that Shardblades/plates behaved differently in the hands of the Knights Radient. Something they do makes it work better and maybe it's a simple case of ritualised ownership. As far as Syl's concerned, anyone using Shards now is a thief. This is dishonourable, hence her issue with it. As the Knights Radient clearly fought against Odium, it would make no sense for them to be connected, even under the premise of this Oathpact idea (which is actually rather good for the most part). After all, if the Shardblades were created from Odium's power, then that is rendered meaninless by the fact that they proceed to fight Odium, thus Syl shouldn't behave so upset.

It's a hypothesis, but one I think has some solid backing.

As to the ownership issue, Syl seems to approve of Dalinar in every way... but makes a comment that he is better after having given up that "thing". The way it's said it makes me think she has an actual disgust of the Blade, not who owns it.

[Truthless]

I can't quite wrap my head around this. Both the shardblades and shardplate are made of metal, with the plate being powered by gemstones and the blades having a hilt. It is a safe assertion, I think, that God-elements are a single element, meaning that the Shardblades and Plate would only incorporate (but are not wholly composed of) the physical aspect of their Gods.

But honestly, I don't buy this theory. Shardblades seem to slice through the cognitive aspect of a person, burning out their nervous system and thus their eyes. I don't think a physical-aspect weapon would do that. And Shardplate seems simply like an advanced suit of armor - it's even mentioned that some researchers thought they were close to being able to reproduce it.

I think the situation on Scadrial where the physical aspect of two Shards were available for human use was an uncommon one. Odium, at least, would never allow it. I guess Honor wouldn't have much say in that matter nowadays though

Edited by Truthless, 04 February 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[Windrunner]

But honestly, I don't buy this theory. Shardblades seem to slice through the cognitive aspect of a person, burning out their nervous system and thus their eyes. I don't think a physical-aspect weapon would do that. And Shardplate seems simply like an advanced suit of armor - it's even mentioned that some researchers thought they were close to being able to reproduce it.

I'm fairly certain that the artifabrians are nowhere near being able to replicate Plate and Blade. I think it mentioned in the books how they managed to make half shards, those round shields, but they thought they were taking the technology the wrong way. I think the Plate and Blade could only be made for Radiants. One thing I think is that Shardplate may actually be made of metal. It's being strengthened by the investiture from Honor's shard, but once the power runs out it becomes fragile and breakable. This is similar to something from another cosmere book.

Elantris spoilers

Spoiler

The stone in the city of Elantris has also become similarly fragile. It was satured with power from the Dor but once the power was gone the stone became weak.

On the other hand Shardplate may not be made of metal. It can be regrown, which makes it almost seem alive. What I really want to see is someone trying to repair damaged Shardplate, it may give us some insight into how it works.

[Vortaan]

On the other hand Shardplate may not be made of metal. It can be regrown, which makes it almost seem alive. What I really want to see is someone trying to repair damaged Shardplate, it may give us some insight into how it works.

Or like atium? Atium doesn't act like a natural metal either, not being mined so much as collected. the fact that you can regrow Plate was something that made me think that there is more about the actual material of Plate than meets the eye.

[Jacob Santos]

I was going to post something like this too. I like your theory. It seems apparent in the story that both Honor and Odium worked together at one point from Delinar's vision.

Assuming Your Assumption is Correct

I began believing that not all might be as it appeared. When the Oathpact was broken, I feel as if there was a greater piece of the puzzle that was missing. That is the reason behind the Oathpact and the Desolations and why they believed that if they broke the Oathpact that the Desolations would most likely stop. If it continued then there were the Radiants.

This leads me to believe the following:

1) Honor really only works with conflict. The best kind of honor happens during wars. People forget about honor during long parts of peace and find conflict in other means. They forget what it means to die and what humans are capable of when destroying their neighbors. I believe Brandon is showing this with the lack of following the Way of Kings.

2) I don't believe there is a similar dynamic like with Mistborn. I believe the agreement was thus: Honor needs war and Odium can provide war. However, the creatures that Odium provides would completely destroy the people, causing the need for the creation of the Dawnshards and Dawnplate.

3) The Oathpact were for 10 people, women and men to lead during the Desolations. Since these people would need to know of the past in order to lead, fight and know the power they wield, they would have to live for a long time until the Desolation starts anew. They wouldn't have a lot of time to learn.

4) The physical aspect of Honor are spren. The reason I believe this is the Dawnsingers. I believe they were Spren, well, others have this theory, but it makes sense. Think about it, the splinters of AonDor are Seons containing Aon within their body. I'd say that since the splinter of Honor are the spren that this is the way that Honor communicated with the 10 of the Oathpact. There are problems with this guess. The 10 Knights could have simply communicated by Cognitive realm. Don't know enough, but Kelsier was able to communicate with Harmony and he is in the Cognitive realm. It probably is how they found Honor's name and Intent.

[Vortaan]

I was going to post something like this too. I like your theory. It seems apparent in the story that both Honor and Odium worked together at one point from Delinar's vision.

Assuming Your Assumption is Correct

I began believing that not all might be as it appeared. When the Oathpact was broken, I feel as if there was a greater piece of the puzzle that was missing. That is the reason behind the Oathpact and the Desolations and why they believed that if they broke the Oathpact that the Desolations would most likely stop. If it continued then there were the Radiants.

This leads me to believe the following:

1) Honor really only works with conflict. The best kind of honor happens during wars. People forget about honor during long parts of peace and find conflict in other means. They forget what it means to die and what humans are capable of when destroying their neighbors. I believe Brandon is showing this with the lack of following the Way of Kings.

2) I don't believe there is a similar dynamic like with Mistborn. I believe the agreement was thus: Honor needs war and Odium can provide war. However, the creatures that Odium provides would completely destroy the people, causing the need for the creation of the Dawnshards and Dawnplate.

3) The Oathpact were for 10 people, women and men to lead during the Desolations. Since these people would need to know of the past in order to lead, fight and know the power they wield, they would have to live for a long time until the Desolation starts anew. They wouldn't have a lot of time to learn.

4) The physical aspect of Honor are spren. The reason I believe this is the Dawnsingers. I believe they were Spren, well, others have this theory, but it makes sense. Think about it, the splinters of AonDor are Seons containing Aon within their body. I'd say that since the splinter of Honor are the spren that this is the way that Honor communicated with the 10 of the Oathpact. There are problems with this guess. The 10 Knights could have simply communicated by Cognitive realm. Don't know enough, but Kelsier was able to communicate with Harmony and he is in the Cognitive realm. It probably is how they found Honor's name and Intent.

I don't know that I disagree with 1-3. It's a better explanation of the Oathpact than I came up with. However, it's not very honorable to create war in the first place... maybe the Oathpact was more along the lines of codes of conduct for the war, rather than agreement to do it in the first place.

Your fourth point however... I find it hard to believe that a physical aspect of a Shard would have any kind of cognitive aspect to it. Basically, the fact that Syl can think and reason makes me think spren aren't the physical aspect of Honor. They also have too much variety, since I can't see the drunkspren or painspren being an aspect of something is ultimately honorable.

[Windrunner]

I've always seen the Oathpact in terms of an honorable duel. Odium's eventual goal is to destroy all Shards, so he is the only one at his power level in all of the cosmere. Honor obviously wants to stop that so he's challenged Odium to a fight. Since we know that Odium and quite likely Honor aren't native to Roshar it seems to be a sort of a neutral ground they agreed on, with Cultivation possibly acting as a moderator. The Oathpact dictates the Rules of Engagement which bind Odium, and Honor of course has to follow them too, because to break them would be to defy his intent. They allow the giving of certain weapons and abilities to their underlings, the Heralds and Radiants as well as the Unmade and Voidbinders. It would be in charge of all aspects of how much the Shards could help their minions. However the Heralds broke their part of the Oathpact, not returning to Damnation (Odium's Shardworld?)to be tortured for eternity. This allowed Odium to attack Honor directly and kill him.

There are two problems with this theory. Firstly, why would Odium agree to a duel with Honor, when he could apparently kill him with straight up force once the Oathpact ended? Maybe Odium's power was tied up elsewhere, or killing other Shards is difficult for him? The other inconsistency I see with my theory is why this honorable duel would actual solve anything? If Odium lost he could just say "Oh well" and kill Honor anyway. My only idea is that a Shard's power is somehow tied to or maybe supplemented by their people and magic users, so if they were all killed the Shard would be diminished.

Oh and by the way, there's no mention of anything called Dawnplate in The Way of Kings. There is regular Shardplate and Shardblades, as well the Heralds' weapons called the Honorblades. The Dawnshards are mentioned, but no one knows if they're swords or something else. Did you mean one of these? Anyway Dawnplate does sound epic! It would be a good name for the Herald's armor, except I'm not sure if they have any.

[Aiken Frost]

Windrunner, maybe Honor's power to bind things kept Odium from doing anything at all until the Oathpact was broken. He was trapped, only able to keep playing Honor's "game".

[Dros]

"Firstly, why would Odium agree to a duel with Honor, when he could apparently kill him with straight up force once the Oathpact ended?"

Perhaps the Oathpact doesn't have anything to do with Odium at all and the "Enemy" is actually something else. If Honor was directly opposing Odium, why be surprised Odium would take advantage of any break in the Oathpact and come after him? If Honor was directly opposing Odium I would think Honor would be watching Odium's every move. Maybe that's why Honor was angry with himself for not foreseeing Odium coming after him directly? He was never in direct conflict with Odium in the first place, but knew Odium was a hateful little pr!ck who had already killed two Shardholders (maybe more)and realized he should have been ready for an attack anyway.

[Riddlesinthedark]

The Dawnshards lacking reciprocating Dawnplate has me really curious.

Latest reread had me wondering whether the Parshendi grow the ShardPlates, the descriptions just gives a very organic feel with how they fit together, to me.

Though we have yet to see Shard Plate without a corresponding Shardblade from the Parshendi, so...