Dawncities linked to specific Heralds?

[potato]

This theory has several prongs:

1. Each city is linked to a specific Herald. I have no evidence to support this, it just seems reasonable.

2. Each Herald holds the "key" to the Oathgate in their respective city. Again, no evidence (this will be a recurring theme).

3. Those keys are Honorblades.

4. One of the Heralds broke their oathbreaking agreement, went back, and gathered up the blades. (I'm assuming Jazrien for no particular reason)

5. They then locked all the Oathgates (excepting Taln's, Stormseat), possibly to try to hide the Heralds complicity in breaking the oaths.

6. They then destroyed Stormseat to avoid any KR from investigating possible differences between betrayed, unusable Oathgates and that of Taln, whose gate stopped working when his blade left the physical plane.

Some indirect support from the Listeners' knowledge that THEY did not shatter the Shattered Plains.

7. They then formed a Cult to keep the Honorblades secret, thus insuring that the real reason for the gates failing went unknown.

8. Profit?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

So the Heralds are keyblade users? Me gusta

In all seriousness, however, I think 1-5 are some very interesting thoughts. Not so sure on 6-7, but it's certainly plausible.

[ap34910]

I'm inclined to agree with you on #1. I thought of a similar idea, actually. Merging slightly with yours (adding the Heralds/Dawncities, which I hadn't considered): Each Herald trained the Dawncities (and surrounding Kingdoms) in one particular area of expertise. This is based on Azir; I suspect that they were kind of the "bureaucrats" of the shadowdays, managing all the organization of Roshar, leading modern Azir into their ridiculous obsession with forms. Based on that theory, Alethkar would have been the warriors of Roshar. It would be weird for one country to have one specialty, but I feel like there should be some explanation of the form-obsession.

 

As for your other ideas regarding the Honorblade keys, that does seem like a good explanation for why only one Oathgate worked, which bothered me a little.

[potato]

Upon further meditation, I now think the Honorblades-hiding herald is Ishar. He would probably do something like that to avoid KR hegemony.

Gates not working without Heraldic presence on Roshar seems like a limit he might impose.

[kaellok he/him]

I'm inclined to agree with you on #1. I thought of a similar idea, actually. Merging slightly with yours (adding the Heralds/Dawncities, which I hadn't considered): Each Herald trained the Dawncities (and surrounding Kingdoms) in one particular area of expertise. This is based on Azir; I suspect that they were kind of the "bureaucrats" of the shadowdays, managing all the organization of Roshar, leading modern Azir into their ridiculous obsession with forms. Based on that theory, Alethkar would have been the warriors of Roshar. It would be weird for one country to have one specialty, but I feel like there should be some explanation of the form-obsession.

 

As for your other ideas regarding the Honorblade keys, that does seem like a good explanation for why only one Oathgate worked, which bothered me a little.

 

We know for a fact that Alethar were the warriors of Roshar.  The Chapter Starfall in WoK is a vision chapter for Dalinar; the female radiant specifically says that the Alethi are specialized in the war arts to protect the other nations (I don't have book with me, so I can't quote exactly).  This doesn't mean that other countries didn't have soldiers or warriors; just that the Alethi were the best at it, and presumably also had the best equipment.

 

Specialization of nations makes a lot of sense if they're united in something that approaches the sense of an empire, federation, confederation, league, etc.  It only doesn't make sense if they see each other as (potential) rivals.  Modern Roshar clearly has the rival viewpoints, and there have been times in the past where this occurred as well (pre-Desolation Nahodan's time).

 

To the theory! 

 

1. Maybe.  More likely is that the number 10 is important to Honor for some reason, resulting in the creation of 10 Dawncities, 10 Heralds, etc.  Certain Cities may have come to be associated with Heralds later.  Look at the Radiant Orders, and how some of the Heralds refused association to them until they became more annoying.

 

2-3.  My understanding is that the Oathgates came after the Heralds; well after.  And most of the time that the Heralds are on Roshar, it is combating the Desolation--we have WoB that if they stick around too long after a Desolation ends, then a new Desolation begins.  Why would the Heralds allow only their own particular Honorblade be able to lock or unlock the gates?

 

4.  So, a Herald grabbed up all of the Honorblades, and locked the Oathgates, and then wandered over to Shinovar to give the Stone Shamans the Blades?  Oh, and they came back to grab them before anyone else could, too; either that, or they are able to fight off someone with an Honorblade while they, themselves, are unarmed.

 

5.  What reason would they have to lock the Oathgates?  What's the worst-case scenario of people finding out that the Heralds broke the Oathpact--nothing.  NO ONE knows who they are, where they went, etc.  They face possibility of their name being tarnished, and that's really about it.  Motivation for this action is--nonexistent as far as I can see.  Also, do we have any official word that if the cities were linked to a Herald, Stormseat would have been Taln's?  It really seems like that would be Jezrien's city to me (you know, with him being confused with the Stormfather and all that).

 

6.  Why would Taln's Oathgate stop working?  If the others were locked, his would be the only one still working.  Is that what you meant?  Or are you arguing that the Oathgates are only usable so long as the Herald they are linked to is on Roshar?  If that's the case, then wow.  Further, we haven't seen much evidence to suggest that Heralds have the kind of power necessary to destroy an entire city in one massive wave from above--which seems to be what happened from my reading.  It is possible that they could with access to all the Surges through the Honorblades, plus whatever other super-special abilities they may have from being a Herald, so actually--a Herald being responsible for the destruction is one of the more plausible points in your theory.

 

A much simpler answer for everything, based on the premise that the Honorblades are keys to lock/unlock the Oathgates, is that after the Recreance, the Shinovar Stone Shamans used the Honor Blades to lock the gates that they could.  This would keep most of the more plausible portions of your theory, while discarding what I consider the ridiculous ones  

 

[potato]

In regards to #2/3: there is some plausible evidence that the KR were well established in the Desolation preceding the breaking of the Oathpact. To wit: Jazrien's statement "they have the Radiants. That will be enough." and also the various epilogues regarding the organization of the KR. Also, there is little or no evidence that the Heralds liked, let alone trusted, each other. Also, at least some of them once called themselves kings.

4: Precisely. But with the exception that the Herald in question was one of only 9 people on Roshar to know of the fact that there were 9 unguarded Honorblades stuck in a rocky plateau somewhere near the (ultimately deciding) battle. Also, my theory is that they created whatever cult in sheltered Shinovar the Stone Shamans derived from. (A belief that treading on stone is a good way to minimize culture transfer)

5: The only evidence is completely insubstantial and amounts to this self-same theory. Also, I believe Kholinar is Jazrien's home city. You can curse me at the climax of book 3, but this seems utterly reasonable (if unsupported) to me.

6: Now I'm re-convinced it was Jazrien. Sounds like an epic gravity surge to me. The last great act of a broken, bewildered man.

There is no way I'm aware of for this to stand up to academic rigor, but I think it is, at the least, plausible.

Edit: I am absolutely arguing that Heralds must be on Roshar for their gates to work.

Edited April 15, 2014 by potato

[kaellok he/him]

It would sure have been cool to see that epic gravity surge.  Or him in actual action during a Desolation if he were capable of that kind of power. 

 

Also, Ishar (with the vision) could well have been working with Jezrien to enact their weird post-breaking party.  Maybe he realized there was an additional problem that had to be solved, and used Jezrien for the destruction he could cause.

[potato]

A much simpler answer for everything, based on the premise that the Honorblades are keys to lock/unlock the Oathgates, is that after the Recreance, the Shinovar Stone Shamans used the Honor Blades to lock the gates that they could.  This would keep most of the more plausible portions of your theory, while discarding what I consider the ridiculous ones

Probably. But hey, if I'm making unsubstantiated theories, I much prefer them to be WILDLY ridiculous. That way, I look much smarter if they end up right and only slightly dumber when they (always) end up wrong.

[Shaggai]

In regards to #2/3: there is some plausible evidence that the KR were well established in the Desolation preceding the breaking of the Oathpact. To wit: Jazrien's statement "they have the Radiants. That will be enough." and also the various epilogues regarding the organization of the KR. Also, there is little or no evidence that the Heralds liked, let alone trusted, each other. Also, at least some of them once called themselves kings.

4: Precisely. But with the exception that the Herald in question was one of only 9 people on Roshar to know of the fact that there were 9 unguarded Honorblades stuck in a rocky plateau somewhere near the (ultimately deciding) battle. Also, my theory is that they created whatever cult in sheltered Shinovar the Stone Shamans derived from. (A belief that treading on stone is a good way to minimize culture transfer)

5: The only evidence is completely insubstantial and amounts to this self-same theory. Also, I believe Kholinar is Jazrien's home city. You can curse me at the climax of book 3, but this seems utterly reasonable (if unsupported) to me.

6: Now I'm re-convinced it was Jazrien. Sounds like an epic gravity surge to me. The last great act of a broken, bewildered man.

There is no way I'm aware of for this to stand up to academic rigor, but I think it is, at the least, plausible.

Edit: I am absolutely arguing that Heralds must be on Roshar for their gates to work.

If the Plains were shattered by a Herald as opposed to some force of Odium, I would expect it to be one of the Heralds with Division. Maybe Nalan, because Division and Gravitation, but maybe whoever the next Herald on the list is.

[Patrick Star]

Here's my opinion:

 

I think that the oathgates being locked happened because of the Recreance.

 

Instead of having each city linked to a herald, I think that each city is linked to an order of the radiants.

 

I also think that the keys are actual radiants from each order (and their sprenblades).  This is why Stormseat was unlocked - it was the bondsmith city.  They couldn't lock it because the bondsmiths were shardless (and thus had no way to unlock it).

 

I'm also hoping for Kholinar to be windrunner-associated.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

I think you are onto something with part #1 of this theory, but cannot agree with the rest of this.

 

Chapter 27 of WOR springs to mind:

 

Tall and imposing, the building was an exemplar of the Veden ideal.  Solitary, strong, towering,  A work of square blocks and small windows, dappled by dark lichen,  Some books called manors like this the soul of Jah Keved - isolated estates, each brightlord ruling independently.

 

Exemplar of an ideal, soul of a country, described using attributes ("solitary, strong, towering") that could equally well fit in an epigraph describing one of the Radiant orders?

 

Based purely on this paragraph, I'm calling Jah Keved as linked to Kalak and the Willshapers.

[digitalbusker he/him]

Edit: I am absolutely arguing that Heralds must be on Roshar for their gates to work.

"Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature." --Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim's autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.

Way of Kings Ch 46 Epigraph

This passage was apparently written after the Recreance, by someone who lived through it, about events that took place before it. I take this passage as indicating that peacetime (i.e. non-Desolation) use of the Oathgates was a thing, and that it was administered by the Knights Radiant. It's possible, I suppose, that Stormseat's Oathgate alone didn't work because Taln was dead at the time*, but then why did Natanatan get to be a Silver Kingdom? Why let the one kingdom whose Oathgate doesn't work play?

*: I was on the moon, with Steve!

Edited April 16, 2014 by digitalbusker

[Stormfather-in-Law]

If the Plains were shattered by a Herald as opposed to some force of Odium, I would expect it to be one of the Heralds with Division. Maybe Nalan, because Division and Gravitation, but maybe whoever the next Herald on the list is.

 

I'd have to go with Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms

 

Why? Cymatics (according to Kabsal, "The study of the patterns that sounds make when interacting with a physical medium.”)

 

“The Plains are symmetrical,” Kaladin said.    She froze. “How do you know that?”      “I  .  .  . it was a dream. I saw the plateaus arrayed in a wide symmetrical formation.”     She looked back at her map, then gasped. She began scribbling notes on the side. “Cymatics.”       “What?”      “I know where the Parshendi are.”  Her eyes widened. “And the Oathgate. The center of the Shattered Plains. I can see it all— I can map almost the entire thing.”       He shivered. “You  .  .  . what?”       She looked up sharply, meeting his eyes. “We have to get back.”       “Yes, I know. The highstorm.”       “More than that,” she said, standing. “I know too much now to die out here. The Shattered Plains are a pattern. This isn’t a natural rock formation.” Her eyes widened further. “At the center of these Plains was a city. Something broke it apart. A weapon  .  .  . Vibrations? Like sand on a plate? An earthquake that could break rock  .  .  . Stone became sand, and at the blowing of the highstorms, the cracks full of sand were hollowed out.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 846). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

To say the least, I think Shallan was on to something here. One of Dalinar's visions in WoK seemed to indicate this weapon being used too. The same weapon might have been responsible for the cymatic formation of the dawncities (I think the cities weren't built that way, they were destroyed that way, and humans are now living in the ruins).

 

Note this idea about the current form of the Dawncities might lend itself to the idea of one city for each Herald, if it could be established that each herald is associated with a cymatic pattern.

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Stormfather-in-Law

[potato]

226"]This passage was apparently written after the Recreance, by someone who lived through it, about events that took place before it. I take this passage as indicating that peacetime (i.e. non-Desolation) use of the Oathgates was a thing, and that it was administered by the Knights Radiant. It's possible, I suppose, that Stormseat's Oathgate alone didn't work because Taln was dead at the time*, but then why did Natanatan get to be a Silver Kingdom? Why let the one kingdom whose Oathgate doesn't work play?*: I was on the moon, with Steve!

I guess this derails most of my theory and perhaps adds credence to the theory floating around about the Stone Shamans being the remnants of the KR. I still feel like the Dawncities are the Heralds original homes and that their blades are the keys to the kingdoms.

I just have a vision of Kaladin rushing to Kholinar to save the masses only to discover that the gate is locked and he doesn't have the key. He begins to grow frustrated and snappish. The Everstorm draws nigh. Then, a beggar emerges from the crowd, shrugs, and asks "You bear my blade?"

Aladdin begins to smoulder "I don't have time for this"

Edit: Kaladin apparently gets authorized to Aladdin on my phone. This amuses me.

Re-edit: I give up.

The Jazrien then summons his Honorblade, stooping a little under the weight of responsibility. "If you're finished, I've got a city to save."

Edited April 17, 2014 by potato