Mr Horrible

Yeah my bad, was the wrong phrasing.

He was however flightly enough to go through almost every woman available in the shattered plains :P.

I have to disagree with the you guys who are saying this subplot isn't over, I would be extremely surprised if Shallan and Adolin were to get divorced (does it even exist on Roshar?) just going from Brandon's previous works. Now there's the possibility Adolin dies, but I personally think Shallan or Kaladin are much more likely to kick the bucket first, indeed the chances of Dalinar/Shallan/Kaladin all surviving book 5 are really low imo. 

However, that doesn't mean I can't comment on the execution again, as apparently I can't seem to stop myself. My big issue that it feels rushed, there were threads to this subplot that I was sure would be explored and they are mostly just left hanging or have a sentence dealing with them.

These include:

• Kaladin killing Helaran. This is less clear than the others as it's possible it's still an issue, however Shallan *really* didn't like Amaram when she thought he was responsible in a time when everyone aside from Kaladin respected Amaram. It was addressed in a paragraph early in OB where Shallan reminded herself that Kaladin was protecting his brightlord, however there's still a disconnect there for me as Amaram would have been defending his life as well. I don't know, it seemed resolved too quickly considering what was saw in WoR imo.
• Adolin's fickleness with women - I *really* hate the trope of a female main character being so interesting/charming/whatever that a previously womanising male character immediately changes his ways upon meeting her. This plot point felt simply abandoned, it wasn't addressed anywhere outside of in WoR when the relationship was new and Adolin would still be interested in any of his previous relationships at that point in them. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish Adolin's character here, just that it's a trait of his that went out the window upon meeting Shallan.
• I really hate how the deciding factor - Adolin knowing the 'real' Shallan, was a solution to a problem that was almost completely confined to this book. People theorised about Kaladin liking Veil or vice versa but that wasn't well supported at all in WoR and was a guess at what might happen. It's more annoying because prior to this book no one really contested that Kaladin had a better understanding of Shallan than Adolin did. Shallan was explicitly wearing a false persona around Adolin for almost the entirety of WoR and Kaladin saw right through it even before the chasm scene (admittedly Kaladin's distrust of all lighteyes helped with that). Heck even in OB Kaladin was the only one to work out what Shallan was doing with her safehand in Kholinar. This ties in with @Naerin's post about how the roles seem very forced.
• Kaladin's quote about not actually liking Shallan romantically just seems... Odd. We have viewpoints of him being attracted to her and Syl (his closest companion) has shipped the heck out of it for some time, but then Brandon throws in that line? It's fine for Shallan to choose Adolin even though Kaladin likes her too, I don't think you need to backtrack on that.

Admittedly yes I would have preferred to see Shallan and Kaladin, but my biggest issue is in the handling which felt extremely rushed, particularly at the end. This book introduced some great reasons why Adolin was the better choice for Shallan, but a lack of time makes some of them feel forced to me.

So I really disliked this subplot and particularly its resolution. Fair call I was wanting Shallan/Kaladin, but my problems aren't really with them not getting together but rather with how everything happened. All the way through the book Shallan/Veil are crushing on Kaladin, Jasnah even explicitly called her out on this early on and absolutely nothing changed. It persisted nearly all the way up until the final few scenes before the wedding and I'm just like "...", now obviously she loves Adolin however this felt so rushed that I wonder if Brandon condensed it based on reader feedback.

It seems the only purpose to this subplot was differentiating Veil/Shallan/Radiant and I'm not a fan, they always felt distinct from the start.

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

At this point i actually prefer Kaladin to stay alone. As someone mentioned before he is more matured and ill tell more - Kaladin overgrew the relationships with girls.

Its in the way BS depicted Adolin and Shallan - simple boy and girl, a simple people with their flaws and desire to be happy - and Kaladin, hovering above the ground observing the world from the sky like a godlike sentry, thinking about how to save the world. Everything is in that contrast in these last chapters.

Kaladin no more belongs to that kind of relationships until hell find out someone really fitting. He just has Great Deeds to make to even be bothered by some love stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with it after OB. Kaladin is strong enough to carry the world and he has Syl to be comforted.

Idk we have several scenes of Syl really pushing Kaladin to find someone (whoever that is), in which case I expect that he will.

1 minute ago, IndigoAjah said:

I'm not sure it was- I think he would have to have let go of Adolin to contextualise the Words

damnation, that's pretty harsh of Syl then.

Although I guess she can hardly know that Dalinar is about to go super saiyan.

Just now, Leyrann said:

Adolin? You mean Elhokar?

I mean Adolin, it was when they were in Shadesmar and Adolin was wounded, Syl was pushing Kaladin to say the words and he couldn't.

4 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I actually didn't get why Kaladin was unable to say the Fourth Ideal - it seems he knows what it should be, but isn't ready to believe it?

I think it's about accepting that some people he leads will die or fighting for the living, Kaladin clearly still has issues surrounding this. I guess somewhat ironically, accepting that people will die and progressing through the windrunner ideals would make Kaladin more capable of saving people.

Edit: it was also implied pretty strongly that if Kaladin spoke the fourth ideal then Adolin would survive.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The main feeling I got by the end of the book was that it felt like most of the serious mysteries or hanging threads were 'solved', and many of them in a somewhat unsatisfying way: It's almost like the end of a trilogy instead of being in the middle of the series.

I have to agree here, I think this and the number of viewpoints in the climax make me disagree with the pre-reviews I read that said this book was the best so far (I mean I also slightly preferred TWoK to WoR, which doesn't seem to be the consensus). I also really like Kaladin and this book was a lot of set up for him without much resolution, admittedly this was probably necessary to avoid every book being 'Kaladin says an oath and kicks chull' at the end.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Helaran's death did... what, exactly? This definitely ended with a whimper.

Yeah, I believe Shallan thought about it precisely once around Kaladin? When you compare that to her reaction to Amaram (who was respected by everyone at the time) there's quite the disconnect there for me.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The love triangle seemed to add very little to the story, besides emphasizing Shallan's split nature. There were plenty of other more interesting ways to show that, though. Combines with Helaran being a non-issue.

Heh, I agree. I also did not get the impression previously that we were being set up for that in WoR. Sure people theorised when Shallan's personalities became more prominent in the preview chapters but this seems like quite a cop out to me. Idk combining it with Shallan choosing Adolin because he knows her, which if you step back a book was the opposite (I mean even in OB that safehand scene has only Kaladin work out what she did). I personally wonder if Brandon made cuts because the love triangle angle was not popular with readers, if this was the case I question the need for it at all, there was quite a lot of Veil->Kaladin in this book and I don't understand why you'd have that much and then rush the conclusion.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Cause of the Recreance... Nalan's reaction is especially weird, since according to the Stormfather, this 'truth' was rediscovered multiple time (which makes it mind boggling how Nalan could not have known about it pre-Recreance).

I agree again. I think the most important part for Taravangian/the KR was the revelation that Surgebinding destroyed their previous planet. Now this might be enough to cause them to set it aside when it's been 2000 years since the last desolation and they show no sign of starting again, but in a situation where there's a huge threat in Odium I don't really understand why anyone would expect the KR to not use any weapons they have available.

I also agree and wonder how on earth Nale didn't know who the original voidbringers were, or perhaps he's been working for the Singers for a long time?

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Taravangian's position is pretty well established.

Sure, although I expected more from the diagram, unless Taravangian has a bigger plan he just rolled over (I'm hoping the former tbh). Odium clearly wanted Taravangian's assistance, it was discussed in blatant terms in the scene, which makes the claim that Odium will only negotiate with Stupid!Taravangian rather suspect to me. I guess I just don't really buy that the Diagram is so complex that it could predict events years and years into the future but not account for Odium potentially hardballing negotiations.

This does tie in with people wondering if empathy is how Taravangian has the capacity to save the world rather than his intelligence, I hope there's something more here.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The Unbound seem well characterized now, without many 'big' mysteries remaining, as well as rest of Odium's forces.

I disgree here, we haven't seen them all and that Unbound that helps Shallan/co (and presumably corrupted Glys) has a bunch of possibilities.

I have a couple more things that I feel were glossed over when I expected them not to be:

• Adolin's murder of Sadeas - had a whole 2 paragraphs or so of ramifications for Adolin's character.
• I didn't particularly like how Amaram was handled, it seems like we are moving on to the Unbound being the big threats, but that makes me question why have Kaladin develop past Amaram only to give him a powerup to make him relevant and then kill him off. Idk, it wasn't particularly satisfying for me to see Amaram basically be the poster boy for what would have happened to Dalinar (especially considering Moash also fills this role).

57 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I know he doesn't have to be (I personally don't really care one way or another; I think both make for a good story), but the best fighter + the best combat Surge would allow for even more awesome fighting, no matter how you put it.

I don't think Adolin has ever really gone head to head vs Kaladin with a spear or the Blackthorn.

Not fully true. One could very reasonably think she died, yet returned to life once Kaladin returned to his oaths and risked himself in a desperate attempt to save Elhokar.

The third oath was spoken when she was already restored, but the Stormfather was holding her back in the Cognitive Realm.

Minor SA3 spoilers:

On a more general level I don't really understand why breaking the bonds would cause spren to die. They would lose their consciousness in the physical realm due to breaking the Nahel bond however Syl's talked many times about what she has done in shadesmar when she wasn't bonded to Kaladin. Now the shardblades I understand due to the KR effectively trapping their spren in the physical realm by breaking their bonds while their spren were blades. Does the Nahel bond expose them to these vulnerabilities if the oaths are broken? Even so if spren are *mostly* representations of belief on the cognitive realm, wouldn't killing them involve forgetting?

This might have been brought up in the "Kaladin Love" thread, so bear with me ... 

 

BUT

 

Did anybody ever consider, that Kaladin is just ********* frustrated that he ran out of Stormlight???

 

Imagine, one second you are near allmighty and then *pooof* you are back to foot soldier, and that even in the face of a world threatening danger?

 

This chapter might just lay ground for him in future to use Stormlight in a more economical way :-D

 

 

**** Edited to avoid swear words ... ROTFL***

This might well have merit too, we've seen Kaladin's internal monologue about the effects of stormlight and what happens when it runs out, Kaladin would have been using a lot of stormlight for quite some time and the lack of it may be influencing his mood. However the fact that it had been over a day since he ran out of stormlight would probably rule this out, unless we're seeing the effects of an addiction.

Recently reading the books I came across several scenarios I found fairly odd, implausible and somewhat inconsistant.

 

Not in chronological order:

 

*The world is not believing Dalinar about the storm and the voidbringers, when he sends out message via spanreed. But the storm, moving from west to east was said to hit New Nathanathan shortly after leaving the Shattered Plains. New Nathanathan should have been victim of that storm and the voidbringers shortly after the Dalinar arrived at Urithiru, the people there fighting for survival confirming Dalinar's claims to the rest of the world shortly after Dalinar sent out word.

Well the rest of the world isn't prepared at all for a storm going in the opposite direction that turns all their Parshmen into voidbringers, perhaps all communication infrastructure was wiped out when the Everstorm went through?

Well Kaladin has only touched 3 (did he grab one while training at all?) shardblades (and 1 honorblade), of those Shallan's was the one like his. Now you might be correct in saying that since Syl was 'dead' and Kaladin didn't have access to his bond, he might not have heard normal blades scream. However this is an assumption (one I don't agree with given that Kaladin's bond clearly was not completely severed) and barely leads to an inconsistency. You are correct that the size changing aspect is better proof though.

Well if she was overseeing the murder of Jasnah would it not make sense to be in the same region? Particularly when she would want to see a body to confirm Jasnah is actually dead, as the ghostbloods do know of some KR abilities.

Also the fact that the person overseeing Jasnah's murder was a ghostblood is hardly a coincidence when they are the group that's established to want her dead.

*The scene where Kaladin swears the third oath: I call that dumb, uneffective and convenient antagonist syndomre  in the face of victory. Maybe I have watched too much Doctor Who lately, where this comes up regularly and really pisses me off to no end because it happens just toooo often in movies, in TV series and books to conveniently give the hero time to shine. There is a showdown and instead of just killing off the protagonist/target the baddies stand there, start to argue, gloat, do all kinds of useless things, while exposing themselves to be discovered or defeated, just to give the hero time to do whatever dramatically heroics he needs to do, gives dramatic speech, gain back his superpowers etc.

Graves gave me the impression he is quite the professional. As soon as he noticed that newbie Moash is not up to the job a person like that would have dispatched both, Kaladin and Elhokar quickly. Instead he starts to argue at length with Moash. And THEN, on top if it, incompetent idiot Graves gives now-superhero Kaladin the hint he needs to know that the assassin in white is right now attacking Dalinar, enables him to save him.

No. I simply don't buy it. It's a typical case of horribly sloppy writing of those characters.

Now I don't agree with this purely because of Moash. If Graves immediately forced the issue who knows what it might have caused Moash to do, as he was a member of Bridge Four and likely capable of foiling the assassination if he felt so inclined. As far as Moash not ending it quickly, well that makes sense too given what he says as well as his history with Kaladin. 

As far as the hint goes, it's clear that Graves is in shock and not thinking properly.

and I have to say, if this is how the character arc of Kaladin continues, I'm quite fed up with him.Two books full of it, at the end of book one Kaladin seems to come around and now he again regresses back to the state he was in when he was in those slave wagons or ready to give up and jump into the chasm.

 

I don't mind at all if Kaladin continues to have his lows, is a bit emo when things go wrong. But repeating the same pattern for three books, THIS is not character development, it’s plain boring and pointless and I completely lose interest in the character.

Why? I would imagine Kaladin has pretty decent credit given his new status as a KR, not to mention he seems to have left the honorblade in Ulrithu, which would be rather overkill as collateral.

The idea that Dalinar wouldn't lend the spheres to anyone in the new KR circle is frankly absurd.

Maybe he's not eager to find his parents dead?

 

 

Guard marches him into the house, another of the men whacks him over the head from behind, robs him while he is unconscious, surprised and happy for what he finds in his bag and they leave him to die with a cracked skull. All because he was too depressed to defend himself, let alone defend others. Life before death? Nope. No stormlight to heal him. End of story.

Are you saying two guardsmen who likely haven't even been to the shattered plains are a threat to Kaladin? I mean sure he doesn't have stormlight currently, but he's been fighting for a long time and significant stormlight usage is a new occurrence, not to mention the whole shardblade/spear thing.

 

Plus, in a state like that he will break his oath again, anyway, killing Syl out of sheer depression, because he simply can not muster the energy to uphold his oaths, not even the first one. Dalinar, declare him unfit for duty and lock him up in the disabled Radiant loony bin where he gets therapy for his problems.

 

Wow. This is really annoying to read…. And I don’t want him to pull the Radiant heroics after a breakdown to save the day another time around, because we had that. Several times over!

 

What a disappointment!

It seems like you're reading entirely too much into this and I don't find this particular conclusion logical at all.

This is a problem for me and may be the main cause of my current open disinterest for Kaladin's story arc. I too felt he had, finally, progressed by the end of WoR. I have happy, glad but I then read the SA3 excerpt and he was back to being depressed, self-pitying, negative individual he was all through WoR and I thought: "Please NO.".  I disliked the Kaladin excerpt. 

 

I have spend an entire book dealing with Kaladin's mental problems and while I appreciate the intake on depression, I don't want to read another book focusing on this aspect. I got deeply afraid Brandon intended to write just that, again.

 

This does not mean I don't want to read about Kaladin anymore, I simply do not wish his depression and his mental issues to be the main focus of next book. At this point in time, I also feel other characters have gotten more interesting than Kaladin which is why I plead for a change of focus.

I disagree with you using the SA3 Kaladin excerpt as indication he's going to be just as depressed and mopey as he was previously. We were dropped into a pretty terrible situation where Kaladin didn't beat the Everstorm and Hearthstone had been ruined with no one in sight. 

Come on now, any character would have shown much the same emotions in this situation.

I imagine there's going to be quite the high death toll for our current viewpoint characters, especially Kaladin and Dalinar.

Jasnah will be the one to have a post-mortem flashback book imo.

This is rather aggressive now isn't it?

 

What kaellok refers to as racist is Kaladin prejudiced visions of the lighteyes. We understand he was betrayed by two supposedly honorable individuals who's eye color was light, but he then transposes this sentient to every single individual without allowing them the chance to prove their worth. He blatantly decides all lighteyes are pieces of scum based on his rather limited experience with two despicable human beings. While his behavior is understandable, some readers feel he pushed much farther then he should have had. Dalinar Kholin is a man who came forward with a high reputation, just as Amaram, but unlike Amaram he proved his worth in an unthinkable way: he gave away his Shardblade for Kaladin and he agreed to all of Kaladin none conventional demands. The second Dalinar plunged his Shardblade into the ground and offered to Sadeas in exchange for the bridgemen, Kaladin should have trusted him, but he didn't. He carried on his negative sentient, looking for all possible ways to reinforce it, to justify it and even when he put in front of the living proof one lighteyes can be honorable, he still refuses to believe it. 

 

This attitude he is exhibiting is indeed akin to racism as he is effectively putting the darkeyes as superior more moral human beings and he is discriminating negatively against them by deciding their eye color made them to be dishonorable liar. Worst, even when proven to be wrong, he remains into his prejudice.

 

This was horribly grating to some readers. I insist on the some as not all readers, of course agree, but I'll admit there is a growing negative sentient concerning Kaladin taking over so much of the main narrative. 

 

For my part, I'll admit I was not overly annoyed with Kaladin (in fact I was rather pleased with his story arc for the first 3 parts) until part 4 and all its boring chapters featuring Kaladin being depressed in prison and chasm scenes which I strongly disliked. I also disliked the Stormlight Archive 3 excerpt as it showed Kaladin has not evolved nor grown: he is still stuck within his negative emotions which makes me fear his POV will carry the same self-pitying I disliked in the last parts of WoR. I understand he is depressed, but I don't personally find static characters who never outgrow their issues interesting to read: Rand Al'Thor got uninteresting for this very reason. He kept on ranting about women who died for his cause: he was not responsible for their death, but he kept blaming himself which quickly became insufferable as it just lasted too long. Rand got interesting again when he stop the self-pitying. 

 

In the case of WoT, the interesting thing is, by the end of the series, most readers favorite character was not the hero, Rand, but Mat. I don't think I need the support of hard numbers to claim this one. Why Mat? He was more fun to read, he starts up with many flaws (he's a drunk, a gambler and an irresponsible player with a strong disdain for nobility) but slowly worked it up. In other words he grew while Rand remained rather static for a long chunk of the story, always stuck with the same issues.

 

Therefore, I'd say the biggest problem I have with Kaladin, excluding the fact I'd like to see other characters grow, is I fear his arc will grow static and repetitive much like Rand in WoT.

I don't find the comparison between lighteyes and darkeyes to real racism pleasing, you are leaving out so much context on both sides of the comparison.

Kaladin interacts with significantly more than 2 lighteyes (we have what, 5 or so in the TWoK that Kaladin is shown to interact with)? Indeed as others have pointed out, Dalinar is shown to be different than the other people with authority in Alethkar and even then it wasn't until the shardblade scene that Kaladin can know he's different to Amaram. Afterwards we see (mostly) that Kaladin's thoughts about lighteyes are mostly about the rest of them and acknowledges Dalinar as honourable (with Syl's prodding). Now this does change a bit after the imprisonment when Kaladin thinks it's better if Elhokar dies (and Dalinar the inherits the throne). Also during this period Dalinar is covertly testing Amaram, however the problem with this is he was actually reasonably final with Kaladin if you read through the last interaction they had (Dalinar talking about how all those witnesses couldn't have lied), that was poorly handled on Dalinar's part when he knows how big an issue this is for Kaladin and then leaves him in the dark.

Kaladin clearly takes it too far sometimes (notably with random lighteyes like the horse trainer or Adolin), however it's worth noting that from what we've seen the problems with Alethkar seem to stem from the top-down and the caste system has absolutely enabled the worst individuals Kaladin has met. Indeed it's rather clear that something is going to happen along these lines, particularly with Kaladin likely to become lighteyes permanently as he progresses as a KR, we're going to see the social hierarchy change.

Finally I thought it was rather obvious that these problems within Kaladin and Alethkar society are being set up for change/resolution. Kaladin still has lots of work to do but this is spelled out to us multiple times (e.g. Kaladin getting depressed about not being able to save everyone and Teft telling him to pull his head in). The idea that he will end up struggling with the same problems he's facing now seems ridiculous to me when you consider the way the narrative has progressed and what's remaining for Kaladin to progress as a KR.

He is.  As maxal said, he sees someone is a lighteyes, and then mistrusts them and assumes they are terrible people.  Just like when a white guy sees a black man and assumes they are a criminal.  Or when a lighteyes sees a darkeyes and assumes they are stupid.  The fact that there are other racists (or eyeists if you prefer) does not in any way excuse Kaladin's actions--especially when Kaladin is supposed to be an honorable, good person.  Him having reasons for it does not excuse the fact, any more than someone who was beaten near to death by a gang of black people excuses someone from hating everyone that's black for the rest of their lives.  It's a character flaw that Kaladin for much of WoR seems to view as a virtue.

 

As to why people like Kaladin--YES!  People like Kaladin for the very reasons that I dislike him.  And people dislike Shallan for the very reasons that I like her.  Of course, we tend to use different descriptors (ie, I call Kaladin mopey and angsty instead of depressed.  They say she's a Mary Sue that has everything come easily to her, and I say she uses her Radiant powers to assume the persona of someone who already has those skills and does a damnation good job of simply pretending to be them--which I know from my own personal life and experiences is a real thing that really happens.)

 

The problem that I really have is that Kaladin got a lot of time in WoR, and there was a lot more of the aspects of his character that I find boring/unlikable on full display than in WoK.  I saw him walking the same basic character arc from one book to the next.  Others tend to say (and I believe that Sanderson himself mentioned this in a WoB) that the underlying issues in WoK were never dealt with, and so it's all one continuous arc.  This makes sense.  I understand this.  I also understand that Dostoyevsky is considered a fantastic author, but I don't enjoy his works at all.  So I want there to be less of the parts I'm not enjoying, and more of the ones that I do.  Which is basically what everyone is saying

It is interesting how you always have black people on the receiving end of racism in your examples where it should be the other way around based on the social power dynamic between darkeyes and lighteyes. However as I said before I *really* don't like this comparison as it is not the same scenario.

The thing is every Alethi character we've seen in the story has been "eyeist" to some degree, even Dalinar who is held up as another honourable character suffers from it as I said previously (never promoting darkeyes to high ranks in his army before Kaladin). So I thought it was rather... odd that you are ok with implicit "eyeism", but when Kaladin is explicit about it you dislike it, that logic seems borderline ridiculous to me. Really the only lighteye character we've seen that could be considered 'neutral' may be Jasnah, just based on how she doesn't prescribe to a lot of Alethi traits.

Kaladin does seem to view his distrust as a virtue in much of WoR, I agree. However he is pretty clearly shown to be the character in the wrong here (for random lighteyes). There are two issues at play though; the social power hierarchy in Alethkar (Kaladin's disapproval is 'right) and Kaladin's distrust of lighteyes (shown to be, for the most part, wrong). This is of course again complicated by the fact that there are many lighteyes that Kaladin shouldn't trust, he just isn't around them much in Dalinar's camp.

Seeing Kaladin take all of the worst angsty, mopey, racist viewpoints from WoK and not just carry them over to WoR but magnify them so bloody much made many of his scenes a chore to read.  The duel was amazing; the chasm was perfection.  I can't think of any other time where I was reading Kaladin and happy/excited to see that it was him.  Instead, frequently, when I came to another Kaladin scene I decided it was time to sleep rather than staying up to read more.  If we have more of that Kaladin in Book 3, then I will be wanting to see even less of him--and I have no confidence that Kaladin has worked through his issues, because it seemed that he had come a long way towards doing just that in WoK, only to have them so much worse in WoR.  

 

I don't like reading about angsty people.  I don't like reading about mopey people.  I don't like reading about racists.  I don't enjoy plotlines that focus on people that are all of these things.  Or how being angsty and racist makes his life worse.  I don't care how realistic it may be, or how real a character it makes him--1000 pages of this is boring.  I was actively rooting for Rand al'Thor to die in the WoT series after Book 3 because of the same storming reasons.  

 

I know that my feeling is not shared by everyone, or even the majority.  But even as much as I dislike so much of what Kaladin was in WoR, he is a central character to the series.  He needs to be there.  There are plot lines that must be resolved, that make no sense for anyone else to resolve them.  It would actively harm the story drastically to remove him.  I don't want that.  Nobody that I'm aware of wants that.  We just want less of him.  Let him do what only he can do, and let others handle the rest. 

"Racist" eh? Yeah that's not a misnomer at all.

Hell if you wanted to talk about racial discrimination why on earth wouldn't you talk about the Parshendi? Even just talking about eye colour, the amount of passive discrimination is huge, I would have though you would be annoyed at most of the Alethi characters if reading about racists bother you, none of them share what is presumably your view (eye colour doesn't mean anything about who they are as a person).

If we go back to why people like Kaladin, from what I have seen is a lot of them like him specifically because of the reasons you don't (he's mopey and angsty), indeed a surprising amount seem to resonate with the mental illness aspect of Kaladin. Now I personally don't really care either way, as long as he doesn't venture into self pity too much it doesn't bother me (and if he wasn't angsty it wouldn't be believable).

The Kholinar subplot may not happen in book 3 and moreover, it may not be Kaladin's plot. The oatgates are reopening and Brandon confirmed there would be more travels featured into the next book which implies our characters will go to Kholinar, not just Kaladin. Besides, to think a random soldier no one has ever heard of who may have a Shardblade, but pops by with a tattered uniform will manage to take over Kholinar is rather laughable. Apart from witnessing the cleavage between the light and the dark eyes while likely being forced to choose a camp, there isn't much Kaladin can do. Sorting out Kholinar is not a task for a single man.

Ehh, considering Kaladin is the only major character that takes significant issue with the system of rule it's a fair bet to say that a riot in Kholinar that is primarily motivated by the caste system is going to involve him. Particularly when he's back in the same general area and has new authority as a member of the KR.

I imagine it'll go down that Kaladin tries to get in contact with either Dalinar or Elhokar after witnessing the mess in Kholinar who will be the people with actual authority in this matter. It is however reasonable to think Kaladin will be involved *because* of his personal interest.

As for Helaran, some of us believe it is nothing more than a Red Herald. Kaladin did absolutely nothing wrong and while Shallan is able to reason out a man she hates may have had good reasons to kill her brother (such as being attacked), it is strange to think she wouldn't give Kaladin the same leverage. In any advent, I fail to see how important Helaran may still be. 

It will quite possibly not be that huge of an issue, however it still hasn't been dealt with. Also I think Shallan having to be around Kaladin more than she did Amaram might make things worse, she clearly tried to be logical about this but couldn't really change how she felt.

Wait, you actually fail to see how Kaladin not disclosing who killed Helaren may be? Now come on, I get that there is an argument that it could be a non-issue, however that's just a possibility. To say you can't see how this might be an issue seems ridiculous.

 

You are right in stating Kaladin's oaths have been, so far, more impact-full in the story, but they don't have to be. This purely was an author's choice and some of us wish for other characters to gain much deserved importance. The first two books focused a lot on Kaladin, with reasons, but going into book 3, many readers wish for other characters to get more screen time. There are 10 orders of Radiants, it is funny to think only the Windrunners are the ones who matter.

No they don't have to be, however when we are talking about progression as a KR, Kaladin has been the one the story almost revolved around (Kaladin progressing in the moments the story hinges on). Shallan progressed in WoR too, however her intellect was more important than how far she was into her KR order.

I think Kaladin is going to continue to time his 'level ups' with key moments in the story, other characters will likely get them too but I don't think all that much will change until book 5. If you note the characters we currently might expect to come through as strong protaganists don't have books until the 2nd half. Jasnah, Renarin, Lift etc all could take similar roles to Kaladin but because they are only getting books in the 2nd half I tend to think the status quo won't change all that much outside of giving Szeth and Eshonai more screentime in books 3-5.

 

Kaladin may be a warrior and a leader, he is not a military tactician nor has he proven himself to be capable of leading large armies such as Adolin does. His great weakness is not his guilt, but his inability to see the large picture and his focus on protection which makes him ore suitable to lead small group of people as opposed to large scale armies where he would, invariably, have to make harsh decisions. To think he is all the world needs and he would single-handily save the universe also is rather funny. He is all but one man and he can't do it all by himself, which is why other characters are important. He also be a strong warrior, but Adolin is a much better strategist and military leader than him: he's the one who won the Plateau fight, not Kaladin. 

Eh, Kaladin has always been more about protecting his men than winning battles. If you extend his 'men' to all the ex-bridgemen or even further I think you'd see him considering larger pictures. However I was really talking about how Dalinar recognised several times how loyal Kaladin's men were to him, which is what I was talking about with him being a leader.

Adolin will need some sort of substantial powerup to be able to compete with voidbringers/unmade that will threaten Radiants, he has quite some way to go here imo. I don't particularly care to get into the whole Adolin vs Kaladin debate, I was originally just talking about why Kaladin would continue to be featured heavily.

Are you telling me there were no darkeyed soldiers worthy of becoming a captain before Kaladin? I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Dalinar has certainly become an honourable man but let's not go crazy here regarding him not caring about eye colour.

Also I really couldn't give a damnation about Adolin, his story is a lot less compelling than Kaladin's and I don't find it interesting enough to warrant him getting a bunch more screentime on personal issues. In saying that the ramifications of killing Sadeas will be quite interesting.

The KR will work as a team, it's just currently that team is heavily lopsided (outside of Jasnah) and while the others might catch up, I think Kaladin's role in the story suggests he'll stay at the forefront whenever some huge physical threat comes in, at least until Eshonai and Szeth develop.

Saying the Kholinar won't have a personal subplot for Kaladin considering the light/darkeyes dynamic there is rather amusing, I mean that just seems obvious to toss Kaladin into which is why people have predicted it.

I feel like you're discounting Kaladin from 2 of those points; namely Shallan and her brother involve Kaladin quite a bit and Dalinar and the Stormfather is really the same for all radiants in that they all need to progress further through their orders. e.g. Shallan needs to tell more truths and Kaladin needs to say a few more oaths. Of these moments in general, Kaladin's have been quite a lot more impactful than anyone else's to the story.

Kaladin is portrayed as a great warrior and a great leader (guilt being his major weakness here), a character like that is expected to be important in the coming fights, particularly while there aren't many martial-focused radiants around (Stonewardens, Skybreakers etc). No Szeth doesn't count as a Skybreaker yet. As it stands currently he is clearly the strongest fighter of the Radiants (although this assumes soulcasting will have limitations to stop it from one shotting everything), this may change with Dalinar also gaining surgebinding abilities to compliment his natural talent, but I doubt it due to the differing roles of their respective orders.

Amaram... You may have a point, but he is a Son of Honor, and also used to be Dalinar's friend, so I count his arc as belonging to multiple characters.

Helaran... Well, that could be approached from Shallan's perspective as well.

Plus, I didn't say I wanted no more Kaladin, only less from Kaladin and more from other characters. Kaladin's plot now needs much less screen time than what he had in the previous books, while other characters now need more.



EDIT: I don't see why Kaladin is more of a symbol than Dalinar "The Almighty has choosen me!" Kholin, or why being a fighter merits him more screen time than he needs to resolve his plot arcs. Plus, I think you are vastly undervaluing how useful the Ghostbloods' knowledge will be if Shallan manages to not get outwitted.

Amaram and Dalinar is pretty much just Sedeas and Dalinar done over, without the personal betrayal. You have to be joking to think Dalinar's personal connection with Amaram is as dramatic and important as Kaladin's. Now he'll certainly be involved (and likely some other characters like Elhokar and Adolin), but it's still going to be about what Amaram did to Kaladin and likely feature the latter's viewpoint when it all goes down. The only other chance is for a Skybreaker to come along and dispense justice there and leading to friction, but I don't think the timing will line up unless Amaram is good at hiding.

Regarding the amount of time Kaladin "needs", he really didn't need all that much in WoR as he and his squad landed 'safe' jobs. He had a lot of issues to sort out, but that is still the case (guilt, ruling system, family matters, returning to lead Bridge Four etc). Note on the last one there, with presumably a lot of Bridge Four becoming squires they are going to be the most effective force against voidbringers for quite some time.

As far as symbols go, Dalinar has his reputation as honorable that spread throughout the camp and he will presumably become the leader of the radiants, however there have been way too many scenes about Kaladin's antics and how random soldiers (primarily darkeyed) knew who he was and showed respect. I've got the impression that Dalinar is heavily respected as a leader, whereas Kaladin was gaining recognition as a hero. Now they both have their place but in terms of symbolic pull I have to favour Kaladin here, just because there's been so many instances of random people knowing about him.

Sorry, but if you don't like it, why bother with it? I have used several arguments in favor of the other ship, several arguments is disfavor of the Kaladin/Shallan ship all through this thread and numerous others. 

 

The fact is people are not willing to take them because they have grown convinced the combination of the chasm scene and the few thoughts both characters exchange are a solid proof of their infatuation and their future engagement.

Well I wanted to point out you weren't really addressing what was being claimed.

Based on that, there is nothing more I can add. I have tried to discuss the situation in all possible angles. Sometimes, when you look at a situation from another side, you see it differently, Obviously this is not working because as long as people are solidly convinced the two previous events will irrevocably lead to a Kaladin/Shallan union, there is no further arguments to be had. Anything I would bring to the table will be refuted because of the chasm scene and because of this line of thought you posted *again*.

 

My whole point was there is more to it than two quotes and one scene, but people are not digging into it. This is fine, but I have beaten this horse to his death. The argument has been going in circle. I keep stating the signs of a possible infatuation are not strong enough nor conclusive enough, but people keep launching back the same line with the same interpretation that it means something while I disagree it means what they think it means.

 

Another last point, Shallan is not Navani, so it is irrelevant to compare both opinions.

The problem for you is that those two quotes are the latest instances where we've seen Kaladin and Shallan think of each other.

Also note that there aren't that many examples of relationships in the Stormlight Archives and I just find it interesting that Shallan describes Kaladin in a similar way to how Navani described Dalinar. 

Edit

 

The entire commentary of this discussion depends on what we are arguing exactly.

 

Are we arguing as to which ship we prefer and why?

 

or

 

Are we arguing as to which ship shall sail?

I was trying to talk about the OP and what I believe the situation is.

If the answer is the second, I would state what we think absolutely does not matter. If Brandon wants to push forward the Shallan/Kaladin union, he will and if he wants to push forward the Shallan/Adolin one, he will as well. However, in one case, I do believe he has a lot more writing to do to make me, personally, believe it is 1) a good idea, 2) not a horrible cliche, 3) good for the story and for both characters development, 4) plausible.

I think it should be reasonably obvious that what we think about the chances of each pairing does not affect the outcome. However I should point out that the reverse causality should hopefully hold, the intended outcome should impact what we think the chances are as these things don't just come out of nowhere (hopefully).

I didn't really follow the fandom until shortly before WoR was released, however I did find the Shallarin push odd simply because it had very little to go on aside from which characters people thought would do well together. I think predicting romance at the end of TWoK was a bit of a fool's game because it didn't really feature in that book (aside from Dalinar/Navani and Shallan getting tricked).

What we fans believe or not does not matter one bit. 

 

The reason I perhaps sound so aggressive in this thread (not my intention, but a by-product of my own being, I get carried away at times) is I disagree the only viable ship, based on those few quotes and that one scene, is Shalladin. I disagree this is where the story is set to go, which does not mean it won't go this way. It is quite probable it will, I honestly do not know, but I simply do not believe we are able to state, right now, the future ship is Shalladin or Shadolin for that matter. 

 

Shallan/Adolin seems more obvious to me, more endearing, more interesting, more everything and it is a union I currently see working in the long run, by that I mean, 10 to 20 years down the road. 

I think the evidence is pointing towards Shalladin, however that doesn't mean it's the only viable ship, simply what I think is the most likely. 

I generally stay away from talking about what is the most endearing/interesting/functional as that is super subjective, unless there's a particularly egregious example of a dysfunctional relationship. 

There are only weak for those who are convinced the simple line of thought Shallan had once on Kaladin means she is irrevocably crushing on him. I tend to disagree as her later behavior does not speak of someone infatuated by Kaladin. As for Kaladin, whereas he did seem to stalk Shallan during their walk, he stops doing it once they arrive at Urithiru. 

Is anyone claiming that Shallan is infatuated with Kaladin? By arguing against a more severe argument instead of the reasonable one, you seem to be attempting to increase the evidence required. I mean I don't particularly enjoy it as it doesn't really contribute to a discussion imo.

The whole love == stalking thing is damnation ridiculous as well. Kaladin had a bunch of stuff going on when he exited the chasms, are you saying he should have been more concerned with his prospective love life than the impending assassination of the king that he OK'ed? Or how his bond with Syl and consequently his ability to protect others was effectively gone? The thing is that even without other stuff going on a character simply does not need to stalk their crush in order for readers to understand that said crush exists.

The entire point of this particular argument is that neither Kaladin or Shallan seek each other presence after arriving to Urithiru, worst it is Adolin Shallan goes to. Now you may read this as you want, but the fact remains Shallan's actions are totally devoted to Adolin here, despite the fact she does not need him anymore. Kaladin has not even crossed her mind once after that one thought while they were walking.

"I need your Stormlight!" she said. "It -"

 

Was that Adolin? Shallan gasped, other thoughts fleeing for the moment as she spotted him in the front of the crowd, leaning on a bridgeman for support. Adolin was a mes, the left side of his face a patchwork of blood and bruises, his uniform ripped and bloodied. Shallan ran to him pulling him close.

 

Here, this is Shallan at the end. She was frantically trying to work out the oathgate until she sees Adolin and all thoughts evaporated. She does care about Adolin, a lot. Is it love? Probably not, not yet, but it still is a pretty good start.

However, if Shallan was infatuated or crushing on Kaladin, surely she would have behave differently. Not to mention their complete lack of interaction towards the end: infatuated people always find a way to interact and I have seen none of that between these two. It thus lead me to believe whatever thoughts they had are not romantic so to speak, not yet. 

Differently than thinking of him like she did at the end of the book? We've only seen them consider each other once after the chasm (and no, I don't agree that they should be pining over each other more, there was a whole lot going on). On Kaladin's side it was a reasonably straight forward scene expressing his attraction to Shallan, on the reverse it was certainly less straight forward. However I think there was something there from Shallan's side, particularly considering she directly compared him to Adolin favourably and when you consider how Navani described Dalinar.

Now I believe I said I think Shallan's on the 'edge' of a crush on Kaladin, really by this I mean I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a direct scene confirming it even at the start of the next book, the groundwork seems to be there to me.

I have never stated Kaladin does not have thoughts for Shallan, but to call it "like" or "love" or "crush" is heavily premature. The evidence on the matter is not strong nor fail proof. It is not enough exploited yet. We will see in SA3 where this goes, but I sincerely hope it won't go this particular way for reasons I believe I have listed somewhere.

She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.

Perhaps Kaladin could hate that."

Frankly I can't see a reasonable argument suggesting Kaladin doesn't 'like' Shallan based on this (which are his most recent thoughts on the matter).

The issue could have been raised several times in the chasms and it was not, most notably when Kaladin decided to distract the chasmfiend.

I just find it interesting that the most obvious problems central to both characters' personalities weren't an issue at all.

My entire point is after that moment, Kaladin does not seek Shallan nor does she seek him. They are both revealed as Radiants at the end and they do not even try to get together. This tells me whatever it is that passed between them is not strong enough to be called feelings. His parents are not in the equation as it took 5 days before he got concerned by them, but upon arriving in the city, seeing Shallan was not one of his priority. It just wasn't and neither was it one of her priorities. If any of them had such deep feeling a romantic relationship is inevitable, then they would both have behave differently.

 

I never said Kaladin should whack Adolin, but he should have tried to find more of Shallan, to accidentally be near her, no to just behave as if nothing happened until he sees her and has a non-conclusive thought.

I feel like you're making much weaker arguments here than you were at the beginning of the thread. Direct quotes have been dragged out that roughly directly contradict what you're saying at the end. Your response to that is to want *more* contradictions? That seems terrible to me.

Kaladin 'liking' Shallan at the end of WoR is pretty simple to show, as Seloun has done (at least imo).

Ofc Shallan's potential feelings for Kaladin involve substantially more conjecture, as it stands now it seems to be on the very edge of a crush.

 also think that since Adolin and Kaladin have grown into friends that he wouldn't steal Adolin's girlfriend. Somehow i think Syl would not feel too happy about Kaladin if he did that, just doesn't seem honorable to swoop in and take your friend's girlfriend.

Hmm, that's strange, I would think that if anything Syl would be unhappy if Kaladin doesn't act on his feelings (if they continue in the future). Syl has shown that while she is an honourspren, she ultimately cares more about Kaladin than the others (in particular the issue with Kaladin having to kill Parshendi). Kaladin hasn't made an oath to stay away from Shallan, I really don't see the issue here.

This whole thing is starting to smack of a Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar parallel when you talk of Kaladin being morally unable to act on his feelings.

I actually have a similar sentiment.  If perhaps not so strongly felt.  Shallan is bonded to spren who loves lies and using truths to create deception(Cryptic).    Kaladin is bonded to a spren who reveres truth and hates lies even to the point of being unhappy when truth is used in a deceptive fashion.  These attitudes are reflected in part by there bonded partners.  These differences in personality do not make for a stable long term relationship in my opinion.

Indeed, there should logically be two rather huge issues here; Shallan's need to lie *should* drive a wedge between her and Kaladin naturally, however you should note that Kaladin is actually the one she is most honest with.

The other one is Kaladin's predisposition to try to protect everyone. I mean this issue is so big for Kaladin that it'll be a substantial part of his character development for him to find his answer here. However it's Adolin that Shallan reacts negatively to on this issue, not Kaladin.

I find this rather interesting as it doesn't work out like you'd logically expect in WoR.

It seems people are forgetting that Syl does seem to have an increasingly strong moral code outside of simply prioritising oaths. She has never liked it when Kaladin thought of all lighteyes negatively (or when he was too moody in general).

Kaladin and Bridge Four deciding to turn around and save Dalinar .

I don't know, I honestly give Sadeas points for significantly more self awareness than Amaram has. Sadeas knew he did it for himself and while that might better the country as a whole, it's ultimately because he doesn't want to back down against Dalinar that he is so antagonistic. Amaram on the other hand seems to have noble goals in the long run, however it's either fundamentally stupid or selfish for a Son of Honor to go against the only KR ideal that is common to all orders (note I assume the SoH would be aware of that ideal, as other groups were). I think Amaram is a lot more of a scumbag overall, hell immediately after his friendship with Dalinar falls through his first thought is regret for letting Kaladin live rather than how he treated Kal's squad.

As far as a fight goes I'd wager Amaram would win it, even though we haven't ever(?) seen him fight. Sadeas was portrayed to be much more of a threat politically than he was physically.