Haelbarde

Lines of Revocation are the Sawtooth function with a line through them. Try graphing y=(-2/Pi)arctan(cot(Pi*x)) or y= t - floor(t). Sawtooths are a form of triangle waves which are themselves integrals of the square wave, which is formed by getting the sign of cos or sin Ie y = cos(x)/|cos(x)| or y = sin(x)/|sin(x)| give square waves. I'm not sure about the spirals, though maybe thinking fractals? The Julia Set can do something similar (though waaaaaaay more complex). EDIT 2 - Re Fractals - http://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-are-fractals/ This is awesome

I get the feeling that Szeth got into an argument/held a belief contrary to most of the Shin people (or their rulers at the very least): He is being punished because they don't exist. His honor hinges upon whether or not they did. I would speculate that he claimed that the Everstorm was approaching, and the Shin leaders refused to believe that this would/could be the case, assume that Szeth is lying (has no truth), condemn him to be a truthless, until he dies, he is released, or can prove his claim.

I like to read Hardcovers, so I'm going to order the US Hardcover (Australia shares the UK cover i think. I much prefer the US covers). I've not listened to Audiobooks before, so I don't have an opinion. I also tend to skim read, skipping words, getting the gist of sentences, etc. I'm also the sort who will sit down and read 3 days straight till the book is done. Skipping bits adds a bit of rereadability though - Each read-through is slightly different (you'll miss different things, while picking up cool other things you missed first time round)

Regarding Spren; I thought we had WoB that Adonalsium left spren on Roshar before the Shards turned up. I'll see if I can dig it up. Regarding Honorblades: My point was they are something Of Honor, so if they grant powers, its more directly from Honor himself, rather than via spren, and so, Honor is able to override the rules set by the spren. I was thinking it would be more like Vin directly burning the mists, bypassing the need for metals, directly burning stuff from preservation. The origin of Adonalsium is something I look forward to finding out about. There was obviously something before, as there were sentients, and Adonalsium, and worlds. So, I'm not sure.

This is a verrrrrrrrrryyy long thread to try read through. Its filled to the brim of Wall of Texts. I worked my way through the first page, but that was a hard slog. I don't really want to trawl through the next 8 pages. So I might jump straight in and offer my opinions and see what people think. You can tell me if its been raised already. Hemalurgy: I was going to say i thought the bind point was the focus, but then I had the thought that is acts similarly to feruchemistry - an attribute is stored in the metal. So never mind me. Surgebinding: So, Stormlight is the fuel. Spren facilitate, through the Nahel Bond, the surgebinding. I'm going off the Syl quote of the Laws of Natures being 'An agreement among friends' - Likely between Shards/Adonalsium that has propagated down through the spren, who embody and enforce these in Roshar. However, because spren, are/can be sentient (there are cities in Shadesmar, with two 'families' ruling two different 'factions' - Honorspren, the spren of honor, Cryptics, the spren of Cultivation), they can be reasoned with. Particularly Cryptics - It is through truths that passage to Shadesmar is granted (possibly link with Cultivation=Nightwatcher?). The focus is harder to pin down than the others, in the way the powers are described. There's two reasons. I think in every other story we've had someone who either knows, or has figured out exactly how the system works, and has infodumped for a POV character or for the reader, in addition to making the point each time the magic is use, that a Command is made, a metal is burned, an Aon is drawn. in the SA, the best we got is Jasnah and Syl -> Jasnah is digging up what she can from old history books, and what she's either found from experimentation, or gleaned from Ivory, though if Ivory is anything like the cryptics, I would imagine its not easy to get stuff out of him. The other source we have is Syl, but her memory isn't what it used to be, and while improving, is not useful particularly. So neither has been able to explain much. So the only other thing we have is when its used. But thats not much better. Unfortunately we've not had a POV of Jasnah surgbinding (bar the WoR chapter, but was her first time, and was not consciously doing it. Hardly a useful resource), so we don't get any help there. We have Shallan's blood incident (in Jasnah's room), where she gives a truth, but while I believe she focused on blood, she didn't really know what she was doing. Kaladin, in WoR, is able to spray sticky stormlight around, but that been about the best he's been able to conciously do. Sveth knew quite a bit about the Lashings, but what does he tell us? He lashes out, but physically how he does that, we have no idea? There's two things which stand out to me: Intent, and Spren. What we have seen is that a Surgebinding Intends (consciously or not) to do something, and the stormlight available to the surgebinder (whether in gems, or in body, it doesn't matter, both are just fuel tanks) is consumed to cause the Intent to happen as best able with the engergy provided. Now here is my theory: Basing this off the Syl 'Agreement among friends quote', and the Cryptics allowing access to Shadesmar to Soulcast, Spren facilitate the surgbinding - there are a set of agreed upon 'guidelines' by which spren cause the world to function in a predictable way. However, there are a second set of rules, set up by the spren to emulate Honor (and Cultivations?) Investure in the Heralds, that allow the Knights Radiant to bend the normal set of rules in a properly defined and predictable way, metered and regulated by stormlight as the fuel source. The Nahel Bond acts as a way of communicating with a spren, who is able to then broker deals with the natural spren who cause the Physical World follow predictable patterns. So what is the focus? Is it the Intent - the desire for something to happen? Or is it the link to Spren - a way of paying for Natural Laws to be bent, if eligible for that particular Law, determined by the type of link you have? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this idea works how fabrials work as well. Intent is important (well, I think Intent is important regardless), but spren are captured, presumably fueled with stormlight, but the specific spren can/is forced to bend a particular law. Possibly organised by the spren as a lesser substitute for the KR after the trust was broken between man and spren after Recreance. It also may leave room for Szeth's abilities to be explained as well. This requires a broker, a way of paying a predefined cost to bend a law in a specific way, given user eligibility for that change. If Szeth has an honorblade, then he has an artefact directly related to Investure by a Shard, which either facilliates by itself a bending of the natural laws, at a Shard level, or (and more probably, if the laws created by spren for the KR mirrored the rules Honor created for the Heralds, though requiring stormlight rather than direct access to honor, as well as the fact that Szeth still requires stormlight), gives eligibility to making the payment to bend the rules as a Windrunner (determined by the particular blade). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TL;DR - Assumptions: Spren control physical laws - Physics is a set of rules agreed upon by Shards/Adonalsium, and enforced by Spren on Roshar Theory (Surgebinding): Two requirements for surgebinding - Intent (A desire for something in the world to change) and a Broker to allow this to happen. Regarding Spren: Spren enforce the physical laws decided upon by Adonalsium/Shards. However, there are 10 related specifically to Honor/Cultivation. These are more sentient that natural spren, though related. These spren, seeking to emulate the direct Investure granted to the Heralds by Honor(&Cultivation[?]), and formed an additional set of rules. Through a Nahel Bond, each type of Spren is able to Broker a deal in which the natural laws pertaining to two of 10 designations are bent, at the cost of stormlight, as a way of regulating the power of said surges, as well as through Ideals (presumably that match up with the Ideas embodied by these 10 spren types). Conclusion: Still unsure, but has to do with the Intent, so long as it matches up with the type of deal the Broker can manage. If that make sense, and is plausible, what then is the focus?

Another few questions - You may have missed some of my edits of my posts, but there's two questions I'm curious about: Can compression factors be used as refractive indicies in Snell's law: n1*theta1 = n2*theta2? n>1 for pulsing, 0<n<1 for sliding? - Time is being pulled in/squeezed inside a bubble (for bendalloy) or pushed away/stretched (for cadmium), essentially becoming more/less dense respectivelyWhat happens if you shoot radially from the center of the bubble? Easiest is for a Pulser to shoot directly upwards upon forming a bubble. Will it exit straight? or will it still shoot of randomly? Can allomantic powers effect things outside of the influence of a sphere? Whether its pushing/pulling metal, cloaking/seeking, charming. If so, how is it effected? The new question I had was regarding wormholes. The two scientifically plausible FTL travel methods are Star Trek-style Alcubierre drives, or Stargate-style wormholes (essentially coming down to bending space in either method). I've seen lots of discusion of space bubbles, but what about other dimensional travel.... Which has just reminded me what really was my new question. Worldhopping. Is Worldhopping not FTL travel? To worldhop, you enter Shadesmar, traverse some distance in Shadesmar, then pop out again. I believe the idea is that space in Shadesmar is effected by what exists in the Physical Realm. For example, on Roshar, where there is lots of people, there is lots of space in Shadesmar. In areas where there is not much in the way of sentient life, (oceans) the space is less than its real world equivalent. Thus, the great void of space should be very much constricted in Shadesmar, so travelling in Shadesmar, while there is a distance to traverse, is much, much less than in the real world. Really, Shadesmar = Hyperspace. The 7th order of the KR has it good - Transformation and Transportation. Assuming that Transformation allows easy access to Shadesmar, transportation should make it real easy to hop to different planets. But, in what way does Allomancy influence Shadesmar, and does it allow passage to Shadesmar? TBH, entering shadesmar (aka, the cognitive realm) is sorta odd. How does what give up a physical form entirely to become a concept, and then return. Spren are able to, and seem to facilitate it, but also seem to be unique to Roshar, though must exist in all Shadesmar in some form, if the Syl quote i referenced before is anything to go on (Laws of Nature are man made, not a fact, rather being an agreed arrangement of how the world works. These laws are universal however, which results in the question, an agreement between whom. Spren (on Roshar) obviously have agreed to enforce it (most of the time), but who'd they agree with? Possibly its an agreement between Shards (ie, Honor, Devotion, etc.) which would make sense - All worlds have the same rules, and each magic system allows for direct manipulations of said rules, within reason, and in a way which has defined limits/rules. This would then ask the question, what about space/non shardworlds, ie, anything not direcltly influenced by one of the 16 shards? Is it too much to assume that these 'Man-made Laws' (essentially man's way of working out the agreed on rules) apply to the whole universe. If they do, then its an agreement between the shards and some other power - Adonalsium? Which is slightly wierd, in that Adonalsium didn't really have a way of directly communicating with the shards, as they are a result of it splitting, though seeing as Adonalsium likely splintered voluntarily (I reckon Ym's religion of One splitting to be completed by its many parts gaining all experience could be related to Adonalsium/have roots in it), could have formed the Shards in a way that they would agree on a consistent constants in which to experiment in.) Sorry about the wall of text, and if this entire post is a bit confused/running in circles. Welcome to how my brain works. This is sorta a transcription of my thoughts as they jumped into my head after each other. EDIT 1 - Just noting here - Wow, the wall is even bigger when viewed as a published post EDIT 2 - We already know that Dermoux has world hopped, though being an Atium Misting, I wonder if that means he was assisted by a 17th Sharder, rather than through his own ability - I don't see how seeing the future would allow access to Shadesmar, and then allow world hopping. So when we are talking about FTL, are we specifically talking about warping space in the Physical realm? And how on earth do allomancers get to Shadesmar.... EDIT 3 - And does Shadesmar remind anyone of the Waygate from WoT - just thinking, the Dor reminds me of that evil soulleaching mist stuffs EDIT 4 - Atium bendalloy/cadmium alloys... EDIT 5 - ... Targeted Time Bubbles? EDIT 6 - Was there a quote regarding FTL being fueled by the Metallic Arts' Mechanical form?

@Captain Kurk - I had noticed that thread and started reading through it, but not particularly far. I was intending on working through that one before thinking further about my other ftl ideas. I have also since noticed you've put up what I said above (in wayyyy more detail) in 'Yet another FTL theory'. I think I'm just going to start refering to you as Captain Kurk from now on. EDIT 1 - I was looking at the distending theory : Can we treat time as having density? For example, in a Bendalloy bubble, time is compressed, ie more dense. Could Snell's law apply? n1*theta1 = n2*theta2 where n1=compression rate of bendalloy bubble, n2=1 for normal time (side question: if the bendalloy bubble were in another bubble with n2 be the compresion rate of the other bubble - possibly, if point of refernce is in normal time, and you're analysing the interaction of something passing through from the outer bubble to the inner buble). n>1 for bendalloy, n<1 for cadmium? What happens if you shot something at the highest point of the sphere? Would it still be thrown around, or would it go straight?

@Kurkistan I'd like to read it all. It is interesting, but I'd like to see if any of it matches up with my own ideas. And thanks. I need to sit down and think about the bubbles more. Above is cheap FTL - its the allomantic equivalent of being in stasis while travelling between planets. I want Star Trek (ie. Alcubierre drive) style FTL. Slightly off topic : Do you get called 'Captain Kirk' at all? Particularly when discussing FTL travel?

I think I might jump in and join this conversation, but first I want to read through Kurk's theories. I've got a few ideas, but Kurk seems to have spent time discussing similar ideas, so before I put my own thoughts down, I'll have a look at the groundwork he's laid in his theories. What I do want to say here is this: I was looking at this before going to bed, and then lay in bed trying to think this ftl stuff through. I was thinking about the effects of gravity inside time bubbles, and what significance that has in relation to how they work, when this thought popped into my head: I can vouch for Syl. My brain broke when considering the fact that gravity didn't actually have to stay the same inside the bubble, but that it could be spren causing it to be the same or something like that... EDIT 1 - I have a question - Are bubbles spherical? As in, do they extend into the surface of the planet? I've got some ideas on bubble anchors, so if anyone knows, it'd be helpful. EDIT 2 - To whom is the travelling FTL relative to? If I experience 60 seconds, but in real space have traveled further than 18,000,000,000 m (1.8*10^10 or 18 billion meters), then from my perspective, I've traveled faster than light, even if relative to my port of origin, I took 5 minutes to reach my destination. If we had a sphere, with a slider and all the passengers in the center, and the sphere is accelerated to 0.1*c. The slider drops a bubble which doesn't contains the space in the middle of the sphere, but not the outside.a If the slider holds this for 60 seconds, and the bubble is such that the the world around passes 20 quicker than inside the bubble, the ship has traveled 3.6*10^10 m. In the time that the slider and the passengers experienced, they should only have traveled 1.8*10^9 m, but have in fact traversed a distance 20 times great, something which would require travelling at 2c to achieve. So for them, they've travelled FTL, while in the real world, have not. a - This is assuming the bubble will be anchored to the sphere. Preferably the sphere would have some form of artifical gravity. Perhaps a spinning ring would work better. EDIT 3 - Can allomantic powers effect metals outside of a Cadmium or Bendalloy Bubble? EDIT 4 - Just noting that at 0.1*c, relativity would come into play, and time dilation/length contraction and all that would come into play, so the exact number i used would probably be slightly off. If that's an issue, reduce the speed by a few factors of 10, and then just increase the power of the slider (if one slider is unable to handle it, drop in multiple sliders forming bubbles inside of each other to increase the amount by which those in side are slowed down relative to the outside

It's probably worth making a note here regarding allomancy. Specifically Pulsers and Sliders (Cadmium and Bendalloy burners respectively). They are able to create a bubble in which either makes the world outside appear to move slower or faster, respectively. I don't know how Allomancy works in regards to the 3 realms, but it would interact somehow (its a cosmere book).

He should have stuck with calling it the 'Book of Endless Pages'. A much more appropriate name.

Thanks for the link to that thread. Quite interesting. Yoda seems to know a lot about the Thrill. 'som out on hiolleething'? I don't speak Dawnchant, sorry. The Starfalls quote (pg 299 in Chp 19) I still think is interesting. It doesn't match up with the others. I think it is the Drive (the good thrill) because here, he's fighting for an honorable cause. He's defending those who cannot defend themselves (the wife and daughter of the body he 'inhabits' for the vision). He's not fighting for the sake of fighting. He's fighting to save others. From your quotes, all the 'bad' Thrill quotes involve emotions such as glee, joy, excitement. None of these are mentioned here. Just an enhanced focus, and total control of his body. Also, the sentence 'This change is apparently why Dalinar's Thrill previously has him. Did you miss a word?

Well, I'd sorta say that the quote I cited mentions that the Thrill enrages (just not Dalinar). Of course, seeing as Dalinar likely has never talked to others about it directly, the rage could be as a result of the heightened focus, and then the Alethi culture, leading to a berserker mentality, particularly when combined with shards. EDIT: Got mixed up with Shardlet's replies to this and http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4631-theory-thrillspren-spoilers/page-2#entry80820 thread.

There is that, but to me, I feel that his discussion changes topic after the ground has fallen away. As in, the destruction of everything was the potential future. After showing it, he talks about whether or not anyone will see this, but then remarks: "This isn't just about you either." Dalinar was shown his home city, and by extension, his country, destroyed. He was shown that there were dire consequences for him and his people, if Odium was not opposed. The comment about it not just being about him is warning that there are others in grave danger. Also, he points out the two disappearing lights before essentially saying, 'and now its my turn,' with the comment "I should have known he'd come for me." At the end of the vision, he is either dead, dying, or resigned to the fact that he will soon die. In that context then, I see the disappearing lights as events happening pre-Honor's death, rather than a possible future. Thanks for your opinion though

This quote, to me, must refer to the Shards. Honor's focus is on the sky when he says them. This is then accentuated by the fact he says that 'he' (Odium) is coming for him (Honor). So the first they is the Shards. I would assume then that the lights disappearing are Shards being shattered by Odium, before coming for Honor. However, we've only seen one shardworld where Shards have been shattered (Sel). I'd say one light would be from Sel. Though there were two shards shattered on Sel, I would have thought that the lights would be of shard worlds. Thoughts? Are there any WoB on this?

A potentially interesting quote regarding the thrill is in one of Dalinar's visions: This was in his poker battle alongside the Radiants. Could this 'old' Thrill be taken to mean that he's experiened two different types of the 'Thrill'? I'm quite sure this quote is before he feels nauseated from the Thrill in the gemheart battle they do. Could this 'old Thrill' be the Drive? Also, it's worth noting that the 'Thrill' enrages. That to me hints at Odium influence. Rage is an attribute that Odium could use. To quote Yoda: 'Fear leads to Anger, Anger(Rage) leads to Hate(Odium), Hate, to the Darkside (Voidbringers).' This is in contrast to Dalinar's heightened awareness, which allows him to think straight, and be conscious of what he is fighting for, and what he is doing.

Good point. I suppose my comment would be that the surgebinders need to be found. All indications is that that isn't an easy thing to do, with people hiding their skills if at all possible. Also, the KR can't really exist unless they're gathered/united together. KR needs to be found/remade/trained, then led. I wouldn't really describe the KR as needing uniting. I guess we'll just need to read and find out.

Check my post here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4751-unite-them/?p=80656 That contains more thoughts on this. He says lead, unite, protect them. KR are quite capable, even untrained. Kaladin took down a shardbearer with a spear, before he even was conscious of the fact he was a surgebinder. I can't see them needing protecting. Also, from the context, I'd suggest he's referring to something else. You'll find that in the spoiler tags in the post linked.

It'd be potentially amusing if Szeth returned on one of Mr T.'s bad days. He'd possibly not even know what to do with him, maybe giving Szeth his oath stone. I mean, Mr T.'s attendents are hardly going to be able to stop Szeth from interacting with him, even though interactions with Szeth would be definitely be ones they'd want Mr. T. to avoid on a bad day.

EDIT: I just realised there were more than just the one at the end of the book. Fortunately, on my current reread, I'd just got up to Dalinar's poker battle. Chapter 19 - STARFALLS In this instance, "Unite them" most definitely refers to the Knights Radiant and the Alethi. Chapter 75 - IN THE TOP ROOM There's two parts of his (Honor's) discussion: "Lead/Unite/Protect them", and "Men must face them together. You cannot squabble as in times past." 1) "Men must face them together. You cannot squabble as in times past." This most definitely applies to the Alethi. Whether or not if solely refers to them, or if its Roshar wide. I think it likely refers to both, with Alethkar first, then the world, based on info from Chapter 19. From Dalinar's discussion in his vision in Chapter 19, it appear Alethkar has fulfilled one of the reasons for the Knights Radiant's existence: to continually refine, and practice, the art of war. For the Radiants, this was so that the rest didn't have to, and its purpose was so that the knowledge was there for the next desolation. Regardless of why, the Alethkar nations have done just that, kept alive the knowledge of war. Uniting Alethkar will result in a nation properly equipped with the knowledge to fight, as the Radiants themselves did. Additionally, from what we've seen, we've got the startings of a number of the Radiant orders coming from the Alethi. However, the Radiants didn't fight by themselves in desolations, rather, they recruited and trained and organised the other nations. Thus, uniting them would also refer to uniting the nations of Roshar. EDIT 2: Continuing my reread, I came across this quotation, which nicely backs up my point This is from Chapter 28 (pg 513 in my paperback version). I might as well throw in the quotes I referred to above now: 2)"Lead/Unite/Protect them I think is more of a Cosmere thing. Que spoiler brackets.

In Chapter 19, there is this quote: Could 'old' refer to the fact that the Thrill used to feel like something, but then changed? (This is in one of the visions, when he fights with the iron poker) Also, he notes that the Thrill doesn't enrage him. Enraging is something I'd imagine would be linked to Odium. He just gets the heightened awareness. Was the Thrill influenced by Odium? Or is Odium the source of the Thrill, but this Thrill of Dalinar's is Honor/Cultivation influenced?

Digging up an old thread, but I have a quote to add. supernal suːˈpəːn(ə)l,sjuː-/ adjectiveliterary 1. relating to the sky or the heavens; celestial. While this could just relate to the fact that it was from the Gods, it is interesting that supernal would describe dawn.

Not sure if this has cropped up, but what are people's opinions regarding the Pareshendi having possession of the honorblades? Two quotes: and from Eshonai's reading: Two sentences is not much, but the same feature is described. And the environment appears to be similar. The prelude's description sounds like it not necessarily much different at that point in time to the environment now.

Just a quote scabbed from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4619-new-york-signing-report/, which adds a bit of context to the theory: So Adonalsium shattered in a particular way, which could fit in with my idea.