QuantumHarmonix

I think there is a chance that Retribution keeps the current system. Mostly because it was a deal that Odium made with Honor and Odium did not revoke his oaths. Tarrivangian even specifically points out that he was keeping his oaths to get Honor to join with him to form Retribution. I think the bigger issue is going to be how to get the investiture to power the surges now that Stormlight is gone and they would need to get Warlight from Retribution.

Isn't part of the contrivance of the books supposed to be that someone is using Connection to translate Rosharian to English? So I see it being not so much that modern language has suddenly sprung up, but that our awareness of more modern terms now has a better connection to the initial words meaning. But I can see that being kind of a meta explanation and could feel like watching someone pretend to be a time traveler at a ren fair. It didn't bother me but I can see it not being in line with the tone someone was expecting from a previously medieval or renaissance like setting. Personally, I started seeing the setting as more of a mix of science fiction and fantasy the more they pull in the rest of the Cosmere. 

I think it is possible that with Dalinar revoking all of Honors oaths all the surges may now be available. It sounds like when they were on Ashen those that would become the Heralds had access to all the surges and were only limited by their oaths with Honor. 

I don't see Retribution being able to forgive those that opposed him.  A saying along the lines of his honor demands satisfaction to the slight comes to mind. So I don't see him letting them get warlight easily. I hadn't thought about them using the harmonics trick to blank towerlight and then tuning it so that it lasts outside. I'm also thinking there might be something with the natural tones of Roshar being able to give them access to surges now that the agreement between Honor, Odium, and Cultivation to limit access is broken. 

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I was kind of surprised by the absolute lack of care Honor put into vetting the Heralds in the first place.  He basically just choose 10 people who were available and willing!  It's not surprising if one or two bad apples snuck in who just enjoyed the prospect of being immortal (what if Battar was just an equivalent of Gavilar?).  Clearing up the trauma via Kaladin-brand therapy in such a case wouldn't necessary result in a good person.  At best therapy process the trauma and help self-actualize, but that doesn't necessarily result in a "good person". 

The Sopranos rather cleverly covered this limitation of therapy as a mechanism for betterment.  Take a mob boss suffering from panic attacks, apply therapy, yield a more efficient mob boss?  I guess maybe if you apply Clockwork Orange therapeutic techniques you could change a "bad person" into a "good person", but you shatter free will in the process.

From what I understood he needed people with a connection to Odium. I think they may have been the few invested enough when on Ashen to have their aging slowed and so were the only survivors that could be used for the binding oaths. 

I could see Battar joining her to get free from her bonds to both halves of Retribution. 

I think the contract is basically toast, but he has larger issues now. He can leave but would leave behind a lot of resources. With the Cosmere target on his back now I don't think he can afford to loose the investiture on the planet. I also don't think Honor or Odium would be very happy with him leaving to hide. Most of the countries are now on his side and Urithiru is in the bubble. Seems like the only thing that was really lost is that he is probably free to continue the war against Azir if he wanted. But Honor may not like that as I believe the peace was agreed to stand regardless of the outcome of his duel with Dalinar. I think you could argue that Dalinar's forfeit is just a loss and not a nullification, so the Honor part of Retribution will probably want to keep the peace deal.   

At the time she wouldn't have been working for Odium, correct? I need to reread RoW, but I don't think Taravangian was even thinking he could be Odium at that point. So I don't think she would be considered a traitor at that point. I always read the broken line as from Jezrien's death back in Oathbringer. His death is what put the Oathpack on life support and required someone to replace him to reforge it. 

That said, I do think she will be an issue going forward. Ishar binding to the others and then taking in some of the power from Odium's well may have been what twisted the heralds intents, but they say a lot that their mental issues weren't all from that alone. The books also do a good job showing that mental recovery is a long process and does reoccur. So even if the supernatural flaw is fixed, I expect she will still have to deal with the real issues and consequences of her actions. 

I'd say that Change is universal to all realms. Exist is Physical and I think Connection is Spiritual. Leaving something like Think, Feel, or Understanding for the Cognitive. 

I feel like they should somehow relate to the three realms. It feels to me like they need something for emotion or thought for the Cognitive and something like Connect for the Spiritual. 

We've seen the dawnshard's ability to attract each other. I could see them changing that connection to the aspects of adonalsium to pull them apart. Essentially he was drawn and quartered, pulled apart by the dawnshards. So it would make sense that the four aspects would in some way match the dawnshards. 

I think it is interesting that his intelligence was also tied to how emotional he could be. So he was the most emotional when he was dumbest. Interesting that he now holds a shard that is extreme emotion. Seems like Cultivation may have been trying to limit Odium's ability to strategize.  

I think it could also be related to what is wrong with Roshar's afterlife.

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FeatherWriter

Is something wrong with Roshar's afterlife?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, why do you ask?

FeatherWriter

Because of the Tranquiline Halls stuff? Needing to reclaim them?

Brandon Sanderson

Um. So, I'm... not going to answer anything about Roshar's afterlife.

Personally, I'm wondering how they are going to make the deal come back and hurt Odium.

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“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1217). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I foresee a marriage boon. 

7 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Yea. Control of his 'resonance' would require both investiture. That makes Renarin and also Venli, Radiants connected to all three shards.

I've been thinking that he would be most similar to what Venli has done, with a Radiant Spren and a void spren. I've also been wondering about the one surge that she seems to have control over, until bonding the Radiant Spren. It seems like the Fused have two, but the Regals only get one. What is odd is that the Regals don't seem to draw on voidlight in the way that Fused do, since I can't recall one of them ever being described as leaking black smoke.

For Renarin, this makes for some interesting comparisons. I like the thought that his corrupted spren would result in one of the surges being corrupted. I think that would make him something like half Radiant and Regal. If the illumination surge was the one that was corrupted, that could help explain his problem with it. However, all the KR's seem to have more difficulties with one surge, so that is iffy. But hopefully if the Regals don't need voidlight to power their abilities, then Renarin shouldn't need it to activate the illumination surge. Personally, I think his visions of stained glass images are the result of the corrupted illumination surge. I think normal Truthwatchers would see "Truths" depicted, but the corruption is letting him see the future. 

I think that description fits pretty well with the second definition of Odium.

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The Shard's intent, Odium, means two things: the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others.^[7]

All the passions mentioned seem to be those types of emotions that would easily lead to provoking hatred from others.

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Listen to the new interlude, I think I missed a good bit f it but I'm pretty sure the Spren manifested.

I found that right after posting. It seems like the odium high spren don't bond and the listeners instead bond with lesser dumb spren. Not sure what that means for the charts. 

12 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Thinking more about this, I think this might be a case for Kaladin's exceptionalism. Given that the most well documented form of Investiture in the Cosmere is Allomancy, and there are sub-groupings based on Physical/Emotional, Internal/External and Push/Pull, might not there be some similar logical groupings of surges. Each order of Knights Radiant shares it two surges with another 2 orders, might these distinctions manifest in Allomancy be one of the ways that the access to each surge is particular to each order. Like for example, Kaladin's use of Adhesion has been described as decreasing the pressure below the object that he is adhering, maybe the Bondsmith's use of this surge would be in increasing pressure above the thing to adhere. The one instance that makes me think this is the case is that Edgedancers and Dustbringers both share the surge of Abrasion (which really is just friction). Edgedancer's use this surge to reduce friction, but Dustbringers can make things catch on fire which seems like they are increasing the friction of a given system (creating heat and destruction). Edgedancers lubricate the ball bearings, Releasers cause the ball bearings to jam and the whole machine to catch on fire. Also, thinking along similar lines for the other orders that we have seen that share surges, the Truthwatchers and the Lightweavers share the surge of illumination. Might the division of this surge pairing be internal/external. Truthwatchers use the surge of illumination to see visions of the future (internal) while Lightweavers use the surge of Illumination to create illusions. Also the Lightweavers and Elsecallers similarly share the surge of Transformation, might the distinction here be emotional/physical? Shallan uses the surge of transformation to alter people's perception of who they are and who they could be (seems like an emotional transformation to me) and Jasnah uses her transformation surge to soulcast with exceptional mastery.

The Kaladin issue would seem to be the one outlier, but given how much he has been referred to as "Son of Honor/Tanavast", this could be one of the manifestations of his exceptionalism that he can use both the push and the pull of the Adhesion surge. Maybe he is descended from an ancestor that Tanavast Euoropa-ed or IOed, or possibly he is descended from Jezrien. This is all just total speculation, but kind of interesting to think about shared surges and the possibility that there is specific implementation of a given surge for a given order.

Personally, I'm expecting the voidbindings to be the pull to the surgebinders push. Just because a surge would be the opposite of a void. I think that would fit pretty well with the symmetry relationships between the symbols on their respective charts. It is also interesting that the respective spren seem to be on opposite sides of an internal/external relationship as well. The surgebinders spren would be external and the voidbinders spren seem to be internal. Though I'm not sure we've seen enough voidbinders to be sure their spren don't also have the ability to manifest after bonding the way we've seen that the surgebinders spren can. Given Eshonai's transformation it seems like a safe bet, but I'm not sure we've seen enough to be certain.

I've had a similar thought running through my head, except that it is tied to an investiture cycle. It would go like this, as people use investiture they pull it from one location and cause it to build up in another. When enough has built up in a certain location, say a specific shardpool, then a desolation could start. I think it would be a particularly interesting and honorable requirement if the amount of investiture in Odium's and Honor/Cultivation's shardpools had to be equal. Then the abandoning of the shardblades was an attempt to freeze a large amount of investiture and stop the cycle. I've never posted it because there isn't really anything to base this on, other than the highstorms make me think of the water cycle and things from the Mistborn trilogy. Spoiler just in case.

I'm not sure this adds anything to your theory, but maybe it sparks something. At the very least I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one that gets invested in coming up with wild theories. People on this site always have such well though out and researched theories, you all make me feel inadequate. 

It would be interesting is Syl was the first spren to figure out how to bond with humans. That could put her before any restrictions that were placed on the Nahel Bond. Which might explain Kal’s odd abilities, why she wasn’t bonded with anyone during the recreance, and why the stormfather was so against her bonding anyone.

1 hour ago, The Invested Beard said:

You mean fusing? 

To quote pattern, No Fusing!

1 minute ago, Jaconis said:

Just to throw something out there, does Shallan’s thoughts on Re-Shepnir help or hurt the theory that the unmade are somehow related to the breaking of the Heralds?

I’d say help. With the assumption that the torture is Odium ripping out a part of their spirit web. He then merges it with a spren to create the unmade.

1 hour ago, Unknowingly said:

This seems important somehow. Why would the Fused that imitate Windrunner abilities cause Syl pain? Could it be possible that the Fused are bonded with an Honor Spren that has been corrupted somehow, similar to shardblades, and that is why Syl reacts like she has? What do you all think?

I’ve thought it would be interesting if the Surges that the KR’s use create Voids that the Fused can use. If true maybe they are stealing power from Syl. Which might also explain why the old KR’s abandoned their spren so that Voidbinders wouldn’t have a source of power. The problem is that there is almost no reason to think this other than a plus minus relationship in the terminology. 

Do you think there is any chance that we aren’t really seeing Jasnah. It would be a cool twist if what we are seeing is the midnight mother imitating her via the memories she gained from Shallan. Then when Jasnah does show up, nobody would know who to trust. Though I assume that Jasnah’s family would eventually ask things that Shallan didn’t know, so the disception wouldn’t work long.

2 hours ago, MasterJack said:

Here's an idea. Please let me know if this wouldn't work. What if you were the child of a worldhopper, who had traveled to Taldain. You could potentially rewrite your past so that your parent had settled down on Taldain and had a child with a Sand Master. Maybe?

See that's where I think if you had enough knowledge of the cosmere, why couldn't you write a backstory that you were born to worldhoppers from any planet. As long as the lie was well worked out, why wouldn't it work? The only limit I see is that most forgers wouldn't know enough to make a mark that could stick. Now it might not work for long, but how long do you really need.