DiamondMind

19 hours ago, trav said:

Shardblades can be sort of bonded too.
is it even confirmed that Radiants would hear screams from blades they bonded?

Yes, Dalinar heard a scream from his bonded Blade at the end of WoR, after bonding the Stormfather. He unbonds the Blade immediately after hearing the screams.

This was discussed in a few different threads before the book came out. Here's one:

Once the Herald portraits came out, it was clear that each was surrounded by their order's cousin spren. The list below seems to have been the consensus. I think the first 7 are definite, but the final 3 are still somewhat unclear.

• Bondsmith: gloryspren
• Windrunner: windspren
• Skybreakers: luckspren / Mandras
• Dustbringers: flamespren
• Edgedancer: lifespren
• Truthwatchers: logicspren
• Lightweaver: creationspren
• Elsecallers: Unknown
• Willshapers: laughterspren
• Stonewards: painspren? exhaustionspren?

A crackpot theory I just thought of: Dalinar is going to Unite all of the Sleepless back into one Swarm. That would destroy their individual identities. We do know that they all originally existed as one and were somehow split off from each other.

This would also be a really interesting way to end the first half of the series.The humans do win but Odium wins as well, so ultimately the heroes lose and have to fight back from nothing. Pretty bleak for Sanderson though.

We got more names! Let's make a chart

Any idea what Nex could be?

Just now, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

A lot of people are quoting that as evidence Shallan had Plate.

And I don't see it. At all. Can someone explain why this quote implies her having Plate earlier? (which I doubt very much - so much Oaths at age... what, ten?)

"Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense" is describing Shallan's anxiety, which probably means she's hiding something, even from herself. 

New WoB! 

Quote

Me: Have we seen any instances of hemalurgy on Roshar before, and given the end of Oathbringer, related question: is what happened to Jezrien hemalurgy? 

Brandon: There are certain philosophers in the cosmere who would class what happened as hemalurgy, but I am on the fence and am unsure, there is something slightly different going on. 

From here: 

There is some merit in this, but first I'm going to focus on your problematic proofs.

9 minutes ago, Salkara said:

My first idea is that Melishi and his strike team destroyed Stormseat when they captured Ba-Ado-Mishram. This is predicated on the theory that Melishi's capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram is what placed most of the parsh population into permanent slaveform.

I'm going to quote all of the relevant Words of Radiance excerpts:

Quote

Chapter 30[edit]

“So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. ”

—Chapter 30, page 18^[17]

Chapter 32[edit]

“In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy's baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace. ”

—Chapter 32, page 17^[18]

Chapter 35[edit]

“Twenty–three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given. ”

—Chapter 35, page 9^[19]

Chapter 38[edit]

“Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. ”

—Chapter 38, page 6^[20]

“That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. ”

—Chapter 38, page 6^[21]

“This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. ”

—Chapter 38, page 20^[22]

The biggest problem I see, and this is an inconsistency problem, is that assuming the book goes in at least somewhat chronological order, we have these events:

1.  Melishi the Bondsmith was going to destroy the Voidbringers the next day. That night, he presented something different. We have no idea what it was or how long it took, but this new strategy was hurried so presumably not very long.
2. There are then 8 chapters, of which the Radiants are definitely still active, before the Recreance. 
3. Chapter 32 implies that they were at peace at the time, and 38 at war. So there was a start and stop to the fighting. Incidentally, it's very possible that chapter 32 was referring to corruption by Sja-anat and perhaps she wanted to defect even then... 
4. The Recreance began when the "wicked thing of evidence was discovered," of which we think was revealed in Oathbringer, that the humans were originally the invaders because they destroyed the last world, and that Honor was ranting that they would destroy this one with Surgebinding. 
5. "They," probably the Windrunners and Stonewards, "reacted immediately," but probably not by betraying their oaths, as that would come later.
6. The KR performed an "act of great villainy" which was also beyond previous impudence. It's likely this is abandoning the Shards at Feverstone Keep and probably elsewhere. We also know that there was fighting at the time with the "parsh."
7. "two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership" This phrase implies that the KR were most or all gathered in one place after abandoning their Oaths and Shards, and that an army attacked them. It's unknown if these were singers or human, but probably human.
8. The last order entertained subterfuge, somehow, which led to harm to the other nine. (As I can't imagine them the Skybreakers being subtle, I still wonder if it was a different order to refuse and the Skybreakers were refounded later.)

This doesn't quite line up with what you propose. So if the Melishi is #1 ended the voidbringers, how was there still fighting? Radiants would destroy singers without access to voidlight of forms of power, and there wouldn't be any fighting at all if he stripped them of Identity. Maybe he did it on a small scale? It's entirely unclear.

It's very possible that the wicked thing of evidence is destruction of Narak instead of finding out about the past. But the listeners/Parshendi is not evidence of that, as they were unaffected by whatever changed the rest of the singers because they were already in dullform. They chose to separate from their gods deliberately, not by what the Radiants did or did not do.

33 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Just a additional data point to consider: there is a WoB that the Listeners are of Cultivation and Odium, but not of Honor. 

Take that for what you will. 

Link?

1 minute ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

What about the one that Moash stabbed that failed to heal from the spear wound? He noted that Kaladin would have healed from something like that, and we've seen Fused heal at other points in Oathbringer, so did she just not have to ability, or was she out of Voidlight?

It's possible only Fused with Progression can heal themselves. Have we seen any non-carapace growing Fused healing? If voidlight is contained in the gemheart, maybe it can't automatically affect the rest of the body...

14 minutes ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

I'm assuming that once an Unmade learns how to do something, it wouldn't stop doing it unless it had good reasons.

Presumably she was captured and unable to do so anymore. I was just pointing out that she probably isn't currently supplying voidlight and Odium has resumed doing so as normal, unless she's been released again.

14 hours ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

What I think is happening here is that the Spirits/Voidspren/Dead_Listeners have to find their way through from Braize to Roshar. So far only a couple hundred have done so, but you will eventually have thousands.

The reason they seem so OP right now, and wouldn't have in the past is that in the past the Heralds started refounding the Knights Radiant much sooner. By this part of the Desolation, you would already have dozens (if not hundreds) of Knights Radiants and potentially hundreds (if not thousands) of Squires. Not only that, but the Kingdoms of the World would have been united under the leadership of the Heralds and thus you would have a whole lot more resistance by the humans than you do in this one.

I agree with the gemhearts being part of why they can hold it for so much longer. And it might be that while the Voidsurges are less powerful, they also don't use up Investiture quite as fast. This might explain why none of them have run out yet.

As for the Everstorm being the source of Voidlight, I doubt it. For one thing, the Everstorm wasn't there in the past desolations. Unless Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow started imitating the Stormfather, thus creating the Everstorm. That would be cool, if Ba-Ado-Mishram became the Everstorm's equivalent of the Stormfather, thus explaining why the Everstorm exists this time, and why that is the new source of Voidlight. Otherwise, I assume that Ba-Ado-Mishram just goes around refilling Fused with Voidlight. Her being the Everstorm would make her much more mobile though.

A small correction: Bo-Ado-Mishram only supplied voidlight during the False Desolation, when Odium wasnt on Roshar supplying voidlight. It'd a good assumption he is doing so again in some manner.

I just found that Nale is not completely crazy, there is something bad about Surgebinding without Honor to regulate it. The Honorspren captain says: "But your bond is dangerous, without Honor. There will not be enough checks upon your power—you risk disaster.”

Maybe the Recreance was caused by so many things combined that the KR felt they had no way out of what they had to do?

Full timeline as I understand it:

Humans fled from their destroyed world, and came to live as refugees on Roshar, isolated in Shinovar. 

From there we don't know a time frame, but eventually people expanded out, the singers embraced Odium in response and the war started. 

Singers start coming back as the Fused, probably their leaders and generals etc.

People who would become the Heralds come to Honor and propose the Oathpact as a way of sealing the Fused on Braize: They would trapped with them, keeping the seal strong. But the Fused begin torturing the Heralds on Braize once they catch at least one.

After hundreds of years the first Herald breaks and allows the Fused to return to Roshar in order to stop the torture. Critically, Honor did not foresee this happening, it was not part of the original plan.

Heralds and Fused both return to Roshar and a Desolation begins.

Desolation ends. Unclear as to why. Both Fused and Heralds return to Braize. 

Heralds are chased, captured, and tortured on Braize until one breaks.

Last 3 steps repeat as the time Heralds breaking shrinks. Eventually less than one year passes in between and humanity's progress has been destroyed.

Last Desolation and only Taln returns to Braize, lasting 4500 years before breaking.

That's most likely around the time of abandoning Urithiru, which is probably within a few centuries of the Recreance.

There's also something really weird about how Odium seems to feed on hate, pain, and other strong emotions. He is called the Void for a reason. Why exactly would Dalinar accepting that Odium is responsible give Odium control? I think that we're still missing something big.

Just now, emailanimal said:

This still reads like a strong physical contact followed by Soulcasting. The chain reaction is people turning into statues.

It's both. How else would the momentum transfer?

22 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

"Shoved" is actual physical contact, the rest if Soulcasting.

The initial push is, but then "He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him." There is something else going on here. Coupled with the fact is there is no reason for Jasnah to hide her shardplate, I'm inclined toward in being Transportation.

5 hours ago, emailanimal said:

I was originally against the theory that lesser spren from Shardplate, but the hints in this book appear to all be going in that direction.  You miss one more thing in your description: Jasnah a seen by Adolin appears to have just dismissed her Shardplate - Adolin saw people flying (thrown by Jasnah, whose magic is NOT throwing people), and saw an afterimage around her.  That afterimage is very likely to be the disappearing Shardplate - in Jasnah's case, consisting of logicspren, no less.

Actually, it's highly likely that part of Transportation is throwing people, or perhaps changing their momentum. We see Jasnah doing it onscreen while running with Renarin without wearing Shardplate: 

Quote

The first soldier swung his sword at her. Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. He crystallized a moment later.

32 minutes ago, Starla said:

This topic reminds me of a question I have about the nahel bond spren.  I’m confused about the status of the sprens' shadesmar body when they're bonded to someone in the physical realm. I was under the impression that they come fully into the physical realm when they make the leap to find a candidate to bond. This means that their "big body" is no longer in Shadesmar, causing them to forget a lot about their former life in the cognitive realm.

However, in the stick scene in WOR, when Shallan peeks into Shadesmar while trying to transform the stick to fire, she sees big Pattern there, with his head of twisting lines. He coaches her on how to transform the stick. Does he transition from the PR to the CR when she soulcasts, or is she mentally projecting Pattern in addition to herself? Or is he always there in Shadesmar following her around, sort of like the deadeye spren following their shardholders around?

He might be able to peek in with her through the bond. 

50 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

"As he approached the ramp up to the Oathgate, the Fused descended.  Four landed on the ramp before him, then gave him a gesture not unlike a salute, humming to a frantic tune he did not know."

Two points about the bold:

1- Could Renarin be hearing the rhythms due to a spren corrupted by the Unmade?  (Not sure if a similar phrase has been used to ascribe clearly non-Parsh/non-Odium forces hearing the Fused.)

2- Regardless, 'a tune he did not know' implies tunes (i.e. Rythms) he does know.  And just hearing Parsh/Fused hum from across the battlefield over the few battles he's been in does not invoke a sense of being familiar.

I think you're reading way too much into it. We know singers attune to Rythms, which can come out as audible humming. That's all Renarin is hearing. "A tune he did not know" means exactly that...he's never heard a tune like that. It doesn't mean he hears the Rythms, or it would used different wording. 

Something I just realized is that the Heralds had to be caught upon their return to Braize, and the torture didn't start immediately. When one was caught, the rest shared the torture with him/her. In addition, it seems the Oathpact was not being given Honorblades to fight the Fused, but to give up their humanity to seal the fused on Braize. It was that bond with Honor that gave them power, and the bending of that oath that allowed the Fused to return.

15 hours ago, demi said:

Hey y'all. Saw Brandon today and asked about this, and he said something to the effect of "Yeah, but it's not that tidy."

Thanks! Do you have anything more specific? Phrasing is important...

As for the theory itself, my biggest issue is that classifying some of these things as Surges means they would require Stormlight, and I don't think we've seen that happen directly or consiously. Kaladin, for example, isn't using Stormlight all the time to keep his group together, and he's certainly not using it on purpose. When he was with the group; of singers in part one, he didn't even have access to Stormlight. So how exactly would it work?

Either way, I'd like to tweak and expand your list a bit, though I'm not saying it's true.

Adhesion

1. Physical: Create a vacuum along the surface of an object, change the pressure of an area
2. Cognitive: Make lots of disparate people start to view themselves as a group? Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Tension).
3. Spiritual: Create a connection to another person’s Spirit, so that you can comprehend their language.

Gravitation

1. Physical: Basic and Reverse Lashings.
2. Cognitive:
3. Spiritual:

Division

Abrasion

1. Physical: Change the friction coefficient of a target
2. Cognitive: 
3. Spiritual:

Progression

1. Physical: accelerate the growth of plants (Growth)
2. Cognitive: heals a person’s body so that it matches their own Cognitive Ideal of themselves (ReGrowth)
3. Spiritual:

Illumination

1. Physical: Create complex illusions, using a Connection as a base, and the manipulation of the electromagnetic and pressure waves.
2. Cognitive:
3. Spiritual: Remotely view events happening around Roshar (Shallan sketches an image of Szeth’s assassination of the King of Jah Keved, an image depicting “...a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug, swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half eaten meal. And a dead man in fine clothing, laying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him.”) This is presumably where the “Watch” in Truthwatcher comes from as well. 

Transformation

1. Physical: Utilize Stormlight to transform the spren of an object into another object (Soulcasting)
2. Cognitive: Manipulate the spren of an object and force it to appear in the Cognitive Realm (Manifesting)
3. Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR).

Transportation      

1. Physical: Change the a targets location and momentum
2. Cognitive: Transition between Realms (Elsecalling)
3. Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR).

Cohesion

1.  Physical: Push and meld a target (from WoB)

Tension

1. Physical: 
2. Cognitive: Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Adhesion).

5 hours ago, Rainier said:

Well, considering you need to fix an image and command in your mind to soulcast, like what Jasnah is doing, I'd say that Transformation is Cognitive because it occurs in the Cognitive Realm. The physical realm reflects the cognitive realm, but it's the change in Shadesmar that causes objects in the physical realm to actually change. 

With both Gravitation and Progression, it's less conscious thought and more instinct. Also those surges affect the physical realm directly.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but Transformation is as good an example for a cognitive surge as I can ask for. It really is all cognition, even though the flashy effects are in the physical realm. 

That seems arbitrary. Gravitation, for example, is described as changing the Spiritual bonds of an object. Transformation also affects the physical realm directly, and though it is of the Cognitive Realm its affects are entirely in the Physical. There is also the Transportation that we saw Jasnah use to move physical bodies in the final battle. If Surges are to be classified by Realms, I would be more inclined to support something like in this thread, not splitting them up and assigning each Surge to one Realm.

There's been multiple discussions about things in your chart. I made a similar if less comprehensive version, for example. I have some additional info filled in.

There's been discussion about the Unmade, matching the Unmade to the Orders happens on the second page

You know what, I might as well do it myself...I'll upload it in a bit. Ok, done, I also named all the Ideals we've heard and made them a bit more universal. For the Unmade, I put in the ones that I think have the strongest support. The other three use more guesswork. Feel free to disagree.

Stormlight.xlsx