owensbt

Great questions. I like dragons. I like the more mystical side and less the animal. Wayne is great... I wondered what would have happened appen if Wayne and The Lopen crossed paths. Twinborn combos are the least interesting system to me. There are a zillion combinations and more with compounding, so it is harder for me to wrap my head around. And on orders, I hate to be cliche, but I like the Windrunners. I try to look at the orders through their narrative drivers and what they lack more than their power. (So not... "which powers do I want", but "what does this group struggle with?") In my first post, I postualted what those drivers might be and how they create ten orders... So using the model I built... and allowing for some change since I posted, out of the four forces (Exist, Change, Bond, Configure) I see Windrunners lacking in Change. They have strong presence, connect with others, and arrange the world around them... but Kaladin's arc is around change. Helping himself be different. Helping other be different. Accepting loss. I see enough of myself in that that I will claim that one for today. Here is an updated version of the model I posted (with what I think are more precise words). Still just a theory... but fun to play with.

Invested or not? Most are pretty rough. Maybe in the west of Rochar in Shinovar if it is just me with no magic...

Yeah.... The seven mistborn, Arcanum, Warbreaker, Elantris, the main 5 Stormlights (not done with Wind and Truth), and Dawnshard. (Edgedancer was in Arcanum). I also read Rithmatist. I think that is all of them. So I have the smaller new novels and the graphic novels still ahead

I am hearing the support for Coppermind and appreciate it and see its value. Both as an archive and for active conversation. What is still like about chatgpt is the casual ease. I hit one audio button on my phone and just talk.... Even dialogue. It is more like this: ----- Wait... I just read this ... Is this the same person that did x back in another book. "No... But I see why you are confused. That person was y and the name sounds similar. This is x from this context" Oh...I think I see something... Are they connected with this larger theme of this over in mistborn "Well.. that hasn't been spelled out, but on fan sites many have speculated about that" Ah .. so I not missing something I am supposed to know for now. "No... You have it. This is new and you know what you are supposed to know at this point." Cool. Back to reading. --- So different tools for different uses.

I didn't know about that. I will look at it.

An example from yesterday. I am halfway through Wind and Truth and Thude was brought up. I needed a memory jog for where I last saw him and a bit about his story. ChatGPT helped. I also was listening to a chapter referencing all the heralds by name and I was trying hard to remember who was with what order and which we had met already in the "present". A quick search and I had a reference chart that helped me enjoy the chapter instead of just being confused. As @Treamayne pointed out, LLMs should not be able to just read the book. I have found that if I ask what chapter something happened in, that it does a pretty poor job. I am okay with that. Perhaps that is because they appropirately don't have direct access so they can't answer super specific questions on where something was referenced. They should have to pay for the book if they are going to have direct access to that.

Hi. I jumped on because I don't have enough people around me that have read these books. All my observations, thoughts, and speculations just sit in my own head. I have read just about all the major Cosmere novels... Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, and all but the last half of Wind and Truth (still going...) I enjoy the juxtuapostion of well thought through magical systems and mechanics with human, heartfelt story. Looking forward to hearing all of your ideas.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way. I will post in intro as you suggest.

I read that article. Thanks for posting it. I agree with it as well. (My wife is an author) I want the humanity in my stories and am not looking for AI to replace that. I do like using AI as a custom search engine to parse vast amounts of info and get me what I want. It is good at that. But more importantly, I value real people and real questions (and that is why I am here), even if that is slower and messier at times. Real connection with real people are absolutely needed for art and in community. So I think there is a time for both. I think this is what my post was reaching for... The underlying motive was looking for connection with others on a new level of appreciation I have for the books when I can get clarification on things and keep reading.

I am in the middle of Wind and Truth. It has been years or reading these. Thousands and thousands of pages. I must admit a get lost or don't remember everything. I have just wanted to ask questions like "Who is this herald again?" or "What was that character's back story again?" or "Is this the same unmade as we were talking about before?" ChatGPT has been great. I put it on speaker, tell it where I am at and that I don't want spoilers and have pretty lengthy conversations down all sorts of rabbit trails. In Wind and Truth... It helped me understand the whole chapter in much more detail. Anyone else using AI to sort out the deep lore?

x Full disclosure, I am not finished with Wind and Truth, but I read all the other main novels including Dawnshard, Edgedancer, the Mistborns, Elantris, Warbreaker, and Arcanum. I haven't yet read the graphic novels or Tress, Yumi, Sunlit, or Isles... I approached this mostly looking at Stormlight, but have been considereing that Dawshards appear to be Cosmere in scope so they would have to map into other places as well. (Four forces to the 4th power is 16... so that would fit into mistborn, but I haven't really explored that yet) Summarizing the Candidates for Shape: pattern, form, configure, structure, guide, adapt. And to introduce another idea... It might be to relate differently over time. Positionally, that would change the shape. That framwork throws a time componant into it and leads to things like Animate (which would fit really well with Elantris). I was trying to stick with primal, creational words. Bind and Exist fit that. Shape is kinda week through that lens. I am open to help with that one. Totally. I made an intentional choice to base my theory on nartative drivers rather than mechanical powers. I agree that it is the right angle. I played with both of those as well as knowledge and choose. In the end (after clarifying for myself the difference between ontological and epistemogocial) I wanted to stick with creational commands, not perception or desire or even will. They are huge narrative drivers though and need a place. Perhaps there are a set of mortal forces that interact with the primal commands. This could open a new can of worms.... is there perhaps another axis containing those things? There are definitely spelled out themes of how intent with a command is critical. I might go ahead and update to verson 1.6 with Exist instead of Integrate. Another idea... Maybe they are dichotomies like this: Exist (have identity) - Change (change identity) Bond (have relationship) - Form (change relationship)

Thanks for engaging in this. I have had a lot of fun thinking about it. First of all, let's talk about EXIST. I did play with a number of options for that face including Be, Idenity, Become, Know, and even Exist. I knew that Change was canon, but I didn't know that Exist was. (Where is that from?) It is pretty cool that I came close to using that. I may change Integrate into Exist for the working model. As for Change and Shape. Shape was the last one I named and I am not happy with it yet, but I was ready for some other eyes on this. The difference is that change modifying substance... chemistry so to speak. It is mostly clearly seen in soul casting. One subtance becomes another, but keeps the same form. Shape is about the configuration of that stuff. So... liquifying stone and reshaping it is in the area of Shape. So let me throw a few of my options there out and maybe we can come up with a better word. Change - same configuration or form or shape... different substance. (locked in word as this is canon, but maybe transform would be better?) A stone statue of a horse becomes a bronze statue of a horse. Shape - same essance reconfigured. I wasn't thinking the noun but the verb. So for example "Shape into a ball" . I played with pattern, form, configure, and structure. (I really liked pattern because of well.. pattern) A stone statue of a horse become a stone statue of a chull. I like your theory on Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers being related to Honor and Cultivation. They are odd. I had tried to map surges onto the tetrahedron and the all land between a vertex and a side.. except those two. Bondsmith and Truthwatchers. I haven't looked yet, but I will look for your posts on that. (Feel free to post a cross link here) And yes! Your observation about opposite pairs makes a ton of sense. I tried that in my first model, but I couldn't make it make sense thematically with the sides or even the vertexes. I very reluctanlty gave up opposites in favor of the narrative drivers. That might be worth a revisit.

I’ve been working on a structural model of the Ten Orders that attempts to explain why there are ten, and why their tensions feel patterned rather than ad hoc. I originally began this exploration after noticing that the Double Eye diagram shows six Orders with three Order-to-Order connections and four Orders with an additional connection. That asymmetry made me suspect a hidden structural factor might be driving the pattern. A tetrahedron (four faces) naturally produces four vertices and six edges. That geometry led me to wonder whether four hidden foundational forces might be generating the Radiant system. Only later did I realize that canon confirms the existence of four Dawnshards — primal Commands involved in creation (one of which is known to be CHANGE). That alignment made me curious whether the tetrahedral structure might reflect those deeper cosmere-level Commands. What follows is speculative—but it has been a genuinely fun way to explore what an underlying structure for the Radiant Orders and Dawnshards might look like. Working Proposal I believe the Radiant Orders may be generated from four foundational forces arranged as the faces of a tetrahedron — forces that may correspond to the four Dawnshards, the primal Commands known to have participated in creation. Through trial and error with the geometry—and by juxtaposing Orders against one another—I experimented with four forces or commands. I tried to stay with verbs that are creative and foundational, words that could plausibly sit beneath the magic system and give rise to ten Orders. (more on other options I tried below) The current working set is: CHANGE — altering essence / state transformation BIND — relational constraint / obligation INTEGRATE — wholeness / internal coherence SHAPE — configuration / pattern / geometry I also tried to stay close to recurring Sanderson themes—identity, connection, transformation, structure—rather than importing foreign philosophical language. When treated as a tetrahedral generator: The four vertices represent Orders that embody three of the four forces (each lacking exactly one). The six edges represent Orders that embody unique pairs of forces. All six possible force-pair combinations appear exactly once. The total resolves naturally to ten Orders — no redundancy, no gaps. Vertex Orders (3-of-4) Windrunners Lightweavers Stonewards Edgedancers Edge Orders (2-of-4) Bondsmiths Elsecallers Skybreakers Dustbringers Willshapers Truthwatchers Every edge Order corresponds to one of the six possible pairings of the four forces. Order / Force Mapping Below is the current working mapping of each Order to the forces it embodies, what it lacks, and a short rationale for why that fit seems thematically coherent. Windrunners Embodies: BIND · INTEGRATE · SHAPE Lacks: CHANGE Kaladin binds and integrates Bridge Four into a unified whole. His arc presses him toward embracing change in himself and others, bringing the set toward balance. Lightweavers Embodies: BIND · CHANGE · SHAPE Lacks: INTEGRATE Lightweavers reshape perception and identity, but often lack internal wholeness (Shallan’s fractured sense of self). Stonewards Embodies: BIND · INTEGRATE · CHANGE Lacks: SHAPE Endurance and reliability; they hold together under pressure rather than reshaping reality. Taln holding fast for thousands of years is the clearest example. Edgedancers Embodies: INTEGRATE · CHANGE · SHAPE Lacks: BIND Healing and growth restore proper shape, but Lift resists institutional or relational binding. Bondsmiths Embodies: BIND · INTEGRATE Lacks: CHANGE · SHAPE They unite and connect disparate forces; less about altering form and more about forging unity. Elsecallers Embodies: BIND · CHANGE Lacks: INTEGRATE · SHAPE Transformation of substance under constraint. Disciplined change governed by law or structure rather than emotional integration or reshaping pattern. Skybreakers Embodies: BIND · SHAPE Lacks: CHANGE · INTEGRATE Law gives structure and constraint; they prioritize order over personal integration or transformation. Dustbringers Embodies: CHANGE · SHAPE Lacks: BIND · INTEGRATE Destructive and transformative power that alters physical configuration without binding it back together. Willshapers Embodies: CHANGE · INTEGRATE Lacks: BIND · SHAPE Freedom through becoming whole; resistant to imposed structure or constraint. Truthwatchers Embodies: INTEGRATE · SHAPE Lacks: CHANGE · BIND Seeing patterns and restoring coherence; less focused on directing change or enforcing obligation. Force Lack as Character Drivers Under this model, each Order lacks one or two forces, depending on whether it is a vertex or edge Order. These "lacks" become narrative pressure points within both the characters and the Orders themselves. Radiant Ideals, for example, can be interpreted as psychological or moral movement toward the missing force(s). The vows seek to balance what is absent. Examples would be Shallan's narrative of self integration, and Kaladin wrestling with change. Heralds perhaps failed in the direction of their missing sides. This framework may: Explain recurring narrative tensions. Predict which thematic struggles an Order will emphasize. Suggest why certain Orders feel structurally central. Open Questions Are the Bondsmith–Truthwatcher orders different, and is that structurally significant or simply artistic symmetry? If these forces correspond to Dawnshards, am I defining them accurately? Other candidates I experimented with included terms such as IDENTITY, ANIMATE, CONNECT, and PRESERVE / ENDURE (and many others) before settling on the current set. Does this model clarify Herald relationships, or does it overfit symmetry? Why do the Surges lay out as they do? They do not yet map cleanly onto the tetrahedron, which may suggest either an additional structural layer or that the model is incomplete.