TheFlatScadrian

Because Mr. Sanderson. I was implying more so that the magic system's execution relies on the perception of the Lightweaver, not so much the perception of the people who see and interact with the illusion. Much of the Cosmere is like that; via the Cognitive realm. Reaction time is a huge limiting factor, but over-generalizing what defines something is also really helpful. It's why Mistborn don't see quadrillions of blue lines to every atom of metal nearby, or gravitation lashings are based on general objects being perceived as "down" rather than being considered by Windrunners as literal gravity manipulation. I meant that, from the perspective of a medieval society, IR and UV don't conceivably exist and can't be understood or registered. A Lightweaver might manipulate them unknowingly when weaving certain illusions, because they perceive humans as giving off heat, but won't understand why or even register that the "heat" they are creating is actually a wave of light. They wouldn't know how to manipulate those wavelengths deliberately, or even that they exist at all, meaning they couldn't purposefully over-saturate IR sensors. Average missiles used, even the almighty GBU-57 MOP, are on average 2.5 ft in diameter, or smaller. On a sunny, clear day with no haze, looking for it, and with good vision, you might detect it at two to three miles, giving you two to three seconds to see it, realize what it is, figure out what to do, and then act. And that's on Earth. Not Roshar, which has thicker atmosphere. And that's if you could even find it, as most are painted specifically to be hard to see. Besides, most modern missiles are self-contained and can be deployed hundreds of miles away by airplane or ground forces, so airplane visibility isn't even a factor. And that's a best case scenario. At night? Cloudy? No problem for high-altitude stealth bombers/fighters (B2, F-35), which don't release much possibly-Lightweaver-detectable radiation anyway. Although I agree that eventually, Rosharians would go guerrilla on our Federal friends, the initial stages of the war would be catastrophic, and much of the Rosharian high command would be obliterated. Although the capabilities of a modern military would be nigh-incomprehensible for Roshar, Americans soldiers can certainly comprehend Roshar (Because we already do). As for surges and Investiture, I 100% agree. But there are excerpts in RoW where Navani expressly explains Aluminum to a large gathering of Artifabrians, so it's at least common enough that we might figure it out through captured experimental fabrian tech, at least eventually. But it is a slim chance, I'll concede. (Unless we consider the DIA) Roshar is a big place. Seeing somebody that looks native, doesn't really speak, and wears easy-to-find clothing would be one in thousands like them, and certain sniper rifles can be broken down and stuffed in a rucksack. And that's even easier if you go the pistol route. Aaand as I'm writing this I'm remembering that basically all Rosharians can dunk on Shaq. Welp. That's a dead end; my apologies. (The CIA was more of a joke than anything, but I wouldn't put it past the Green Beret. Or the DIA, for that matter)

My many thanks, @First of the Tide.

See title. Criticism desperately needed.

*Bridge Four salute* That makes sense. (I haven’t actually read Era II yet) It may be possible to do that against a tank round… although I don’t know. It might not be enough to prevent at least some critical internal failures. And even then, the KE of the round is still shattering that thing with 12 MJ of force, so everyone nearby still dies or gets concussed, but at least whatever the tank was shooting it is sorta intact.

Maybe I’m a little behind, but can weight stack as long as the time used is shortened? So, you’ve stored 50% of your mass for a week and get 400% for one day? Or is it solely time to time, weight to weight?

That would be terrifying. For everyone involved. You could seriously destroy computers that way, in space. Wreck life support or propulsion systems. What about Aondor? Could lightweaving mess with Aon tech?

The cosmetics industry would riot and probably keep it a secret.

No worries, man. could you perhaps stimulate taste sensory organs with air movements?

How heavy can you actually get? It’d have to be under 200%, right?

You could make a killing selling fake snack food to people attempting to lose weight. or fake alcohol. Or fake cigarettes. Or fake… any addiction, really. Fake Firemoss!

Rehab centers for fake-food addictions should be canon. And how do they simulate touch? Like… with air waves?

I’ve had an idea. Lightweavers could X-Ray people, right? So if you got a surgeon on a battlefield who needs immediate visual on an injury, you just need a plate and a Lightweaver. Sure, X-Rays are dangerous, but it’s completely viable short-term.

I’ll be there. Uh… yep. And that. Definitely my first thought.

Amazing. For-hire microwaving is my new favorite head-canon for Era 2. (Man, imagine a person being given stage 4 cancer to do an assassination! That'd be so cool.)

Dang, that's cool. It certainly sounds like they could create and transmit radio frequencies, because if they're operating in waves... You could mess with a lot of modern tech with that. (Or microwave popcorn) I don't know much about the sound though; that's a wave formed of interaction in empty space rather than a self-defined particle/wavelength, so I don't know how that works. Maybe because, to the magic, it's a perception-based Surge rather than a literal force of nature? Also... I think it's more, right now anyway, that they can reproduce IR without thinking about it because they know, instinctively, that living things produce heat. It's a passive thing that they just do when they make a realistic illusion. But I don't know if they'd do that, or know how to do that, while trying to distract an enemy with a massive army. We know that Shallan does something similar for the corrupted Amaram forces, but I don't think it mentions her making them actually give off realistic human heat, even if it is technically possible. I certainly think it's possible. But I don't think they know how to actively right now. ("Shallan, please stop making my teeth glow with that purple light! You know I can't stand that!") But I could certainly see nuclear science rapidly expanding as they do figure it out. Which is terrifying. Heck, they could just send in Lightweavers and slow-roast everybody on the front! Imagine sending a Lightweaver to give someone advanced cancer, to do a subtle assassination.

Please do; that'd be awesome. In all seriousness, I do think that Era 1 Rosharian Lightweavers are dead in the water when it comes to the U.S.'s InfraRed seeing past illusions. If they can manipulate the whole spectrum in later eras, however... that'd be so cool.

Adolin: "Shallan, this popcorn is burnt!" Shallan: "Sorry! Veil always gets carried away!" ~ Veil: "Cancer makes it taste better."

True. So either you die spectacularly because the tank round impacts and turns you into an aerosol, or you die spectacularly because the tank round doesn't impact and you still get turned into an aerosol. Because of mass difference, a steel-pusher could theoretically change the speed and stop a tank round (They're only about 10kg), but I seriously doubt it'd be possible through any conventional means, outside of maybe Elend burning duralumin after swallowing a brick of steel. It's just funny to imagine somebody exploding because they steel-pushed a tank round, and frankly, it's always my biggest argument against "Steel-push/Iron-pull against X projectile". It's really not that powerful in the face of such tremendous forces.

I think their lightweaving is largely perception-based. Until somebody discovers how to see the other wavelengths, I think it's safe to say they're off-limits. (Although I do like the idea of a Lightweaver casually microwaving a styrofoam box of Chouta on the couch while watching Arrested Development.)

Possibly. But TLR using a duralumin steelpush could actually generate even more force than I calculated was necessary (with the maximum "instant" time-frame of 0.1 seconds)... and duralumin doesn't negate force transfer. And the other stuff? That's assuming his bands aren't annihilated, or at least ripped off. He might survive the initial impact, but he'd suddenly be under 155,500 Newtons without duralumin, which is a speed of... Dang. Assuming he's 160kg, about 98m/s without duralumin. With it? Who knows? And without his metals, I assume his landing to be, you know, a sudden and devastating stop at similar or greater G's, which would be... bad. Have you ever heard the term "massive catastrophic failure"? Apply that to a human body. Or, of course, we could just use incendiary bombs (or way to much C4), which would melt the metal right off and then kill him.

Of course! I've had fun working through this too! A lot of your points are (still) really good, to my chagrin. I am sort of operating under the assumption that the United States is not being helped expressly in the war by its allies, and that, like any other war on Earth, it's just operating as it would (Albeit with absurdly solid partisan support for an extended war with no real benefits and strangely limited teleportation technology). Maybe wartime production happens, but we're still under the restrictions of real-world production capacity and manpower limitations (2.1 millions members, vehicle and weaponry stockpiles, etc.). It's really more a test of Rosharian defense than a full-scale expansion prevention and retribution conflict (Normandy style). I also think that the Rosharians just going full mole-people on the military would be a loss for them, as they've given up all their strongholds and lands, and even if they have relatively unhurt populations that's still going to be a logistical nightmare; and it'd probably be difficult to replenish Stormlight to boot. True. But I also think we overestimate the ability of the newly-christened Radiants. They are brand-new at this, and with that in mind, I think they'd be easier to overwhelm than you think, especially without proper control, knowledge, or command. A fully outfitted Knights Radiant pre-Desolation? They'd be far more formidable. But as of WoR or WaT? I don't know. I think I'd be easier than you think, especially as something rather important is still true: Rosharians know about Aluminum. And if they do, than the U.S. can and probably does (in this setup). A SEAL team (preferably of Asian or Native American decents, because of epicanthic folds, and with hazel or green/blue eyes) with tinfoil crammed in their shirts and hats are now more invisible than Wit when he owes somebody money, and a single assassin in a major population center could do heavy damage to command structures and infrastructure. (Again, By the Grace of Adonalsium, We, Jasnah, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Alethkars, is as mortal as your average grunt, which is easily resolved by a helping of .45 ACP (Honor's favorite caliber) from some random Makabaki man the CIA trained to be a Zero Agent in exchange for his family's safety) Besides, as dangerous to the military as visual illusions are, I don't think they could defeat Infrared. IR vision, which is not vision-based, would reveal most illusions, and lo and behold, almost all military hardware is outfitted with it. And finally, I think we always overestimate visual ability. Our senses kinda suck. And so much of magic in the Cosmere in general is based on perception. When you can be killed by something faster than the sound it makes and smaller than the eye that sees it, moving faster than it is possible to observe, calculate, and react to it, I doubt there's much any Rosharian can do, especially with most modern tech being so quick (average missile/ballistic dart speeds are at the mach 1.5-mach 2+ range). A Lightweaver doesn't know to make illusions when her enemy is five miles away with a radar rangefinder and an M777. An Elsecaller doesn't know to teleport when an A-10 is inbound at 5,000 feet. A Windrunner doesn't know to dodge when a CIWS is going to let loose from 4,000 feet with radar and IR tracking. (I also think that Urithiru, strong as it is, is still a bunch of brittle stone floors with wide gaps between them. A single MOP bomb dropped by a B2 at night cruising silently at an altitude double that of Urithiru itself is not going to really be prevented, especially because those things are accurate to the foot. Sadly, I doubt anyone is really going to listen to Renarin on this one, if he even could see it coming. That, on night one, is a stake in the heart of any real resistance (At least from humans). The Fused are another story entirely).

I know I've been hand-wavey with how they get here, but I promise that this is the final setup, my friend. That's all on me. (To clarify, my "The US just arrives in the Frostlands" was a brief tangent to your ask after it being a full-scale summoning, which I was responding to secondarily. The final arrival is still single-point "Spawn Point" teleportation) And I've always thought the U.S.'s ability to win was largely tied up with its distance from most conflicts and its massive production capacity, something that I think this setup preserves fairly. That's fair, and I think we'd both call an open-field fight a win for any modern military. But the United States has incredibly good strike teams too, as well as comprehensive bombing abilities, so it's not always going to just be big infantry/navy vs. guerrilla fighters. Also, as dangerous as Radiant strike teams can and would be, they're still susceptible to losses, and at a much heavier ratio than the U.S. Military, which is huge and built to tank losses. A single tank being destroyed is expensive, but manageable and replaceable, while a Radiant far less so. And much bigger installations, like an aircraft carrier, do require proximity, something all modern ships are directly outfitted to defend against (SeaRAM, CIWS, radar, etc. RAM missiles and CIWS rounds are so fast that by the time you could even see them or react to Lash or Elsecall or whatever else, they're in you, so anyone trying to get close is toast). Even using Shadesmar is hard, as searching a sea of beads for a specific part is literally a needle/haystack situation, especially near towns or cities, and I don't know if soulcasting a part of the ocean from Shadesmar is even possible. Also for soulcasters, for one, assassination is always an option against soulcasters, and they're not that hard to notice. A small team finds a bunker that some of them are hiding in, plants some C4, and it's all over for a chunk of the supply chain. Queen Jasnah the Almighty can't survive a single headshot of 6.5 from some Navy SEAL in the courtyard. Another option is just using near-complete high-altitude air superiority. A single MC-130 dropping a GBU-43B MOAB over Urithiru, or even a B2 sending a GBU-57 MOP through the ceiling, would annihilate huge portions of the best Rosharian forces overnight. Airplanes, also, would actually work better on Roshar due to lower gravity and a denser atmosphere, meaning dogfights and high-altitude bombing is cheaper and easier. This would also allow for slightly slower, but overall further, projectile ranges for the navy and land artillery. There's no way to defend against something you can't detect and aren't expecting. Truthwatchers might foresee strikes like that initially, but they're few and far between, and dodgy at best, and it could very well become a Cassandra situation for the first few days. "Yes, the massive gray fabrial carrying a tiny, deployable sun at 30,000 feet is approaching quickly, we must abandon our only stronghold lest we all die." That disbelief wouldn't last, but at least the U.S. would have the element of surprise, something that could be life-or-death for the invasion. Another assumption is that everyone is working together on Roshar, which isn't actually part of the setup. I doubt Alethkar or Jah Keved can afford to care initially if smaller nation-states are falling in the South or West. The Diagram probably doesn't even account for this. I doubt the Fused would help the Alethi fight the U.S., at least initially. In fact, the Fused might allow them to both fight each other first, and then step in afterwards. The Fused are likely the biggest problem, but an alliance could be made, potentially. Also, satellites aren't present, because that'd be kinda ridiculous (It's ground/sea teleportation to another planet). But nearly all missile and autocannon tracking systems are either/both self-contained radar and IR based, and comms can easily be established with temporary radio towers and mobile radio ships. GPS would be the biggest loss, but we were just fine before the space age, and we can go back to that with little issue. And I think we overestimate the adaptability of Roshar. They have zero defenses against high-altitude aircraft and precision artillery bombardment, and almost all of their tactics can be boiled down to "siege" and "charge". Changing that would take months, if not years, of re-fitting, and entirely new tactical plans. A great general in the American Civil War is nearly worthless in WWII, and this is an even bigger gap. And even modern militaries are hard-pressed to stop something you can't see or hear coming but still kills you in three seconds at three miles. The Radiants are supremely adaptable, but they can't be everywhere, are still fallible, and have limited, hard-to-replace numbers. TL;DR, the Rosharians are under-prepared, unsuspecting, and far too fractured to defend against a technologically superior invasive force with the win in both range, speed, and communication. Although Radiants and Shardbearers might pose a significant threat, a sudden attack could cripple them, leaving only the Fused and other Odium minions as the biggest threats. Great points!

Or we just send a single GBU-43/B "MOAB" in on a MC-130 and wipe Luthadel off the map. And airstrike or artillery barrage the Koloss and Allomancers from so far away the little blue line created by an F/A-18 doesn't even appear in their vision. Even Atium can't predict a bullet fast enough to dodge it. I actually did some math once. An Allomancer steel-pushing a tank round, if they could even generate enough force to do so, would kill them instantly, because of force transfer. And @Ookla The Vessel Of Honor, thank you for perpetuating my crazy ideas! (Here's that math:

Hmm... To be fair, I think that soul casting would be understood, or at least contextualized, pretty quickly with just simple observation. I could easily imagine a "shoot-on-sight" order for soulcasters, given their capabilities (And ignoring the Geneva Convention), and seeing a woman running around turning people into amethyst would be pretty clear cause, I would think. I certainly think the Rosharians could do some damage initially, but I don't think they could possibly last long-term. Of course, to do that she had to play into its cognitive bead's sense of loyalty to the crew by presenting her casting of it as its "last service" to them, which wouldn't really apply in the same way to a completely functional, uncontested warship at full war prep (And, by cognitive soul, probably really doesn't like Rosharians). Plus she was touching that ship, really emotionally charged, and in shock, and wood is made partially of and grown with water; none of which would apply to a steel warship launching artillery from miles away. Soulcasting is rather poorly defined, but based on what I've seen, it's pretty difficult even for stuff you're directly holding, and the more you do it the faster you die. Shallan and Jasnah (And other Radiants) are rare, and can still be killed easily. That's a great point. But I think the same limited-upper-hand applies, because seeing a flying man touch a tank that has its turret suddenly fly off would be a pretty clear target for soldiers nearby. The U.S. Military has over 4,000 tanks, and that's not counting the tens of thousands of light and mechanized infantry vehicles (M2 Bradleys, Strykers, MRAPs, HEMTTs, even machine-gun mounted HMMWVs). A single man might get away with one or two before getting blasted sky-high. And broken parts can be repaired. To be fair, all this gear would have to be transported in on carriers, LCMs, and ESB, or by air, but that's not to say an initial force couldn't clean out a lot of the resistance and then be supplied by further landings. I actually don't know, but I do think that'd be fascinating. I'm still new to the deeper lore. Do we have any indication that the off-world Scadrians had cognitive representations? Or Wit/Hoid, and his flute? If they didn't that would cripple the most oft-discussed offense against a modern military. I know, my thoughts are a little all-over on this, but... uh... oh, I know. It's U.S. controlled teleportation, but only to and from that one place in the ocean and nowhere else. They can send entire ships through, and airplanes that are in flight, and Rosharians can't use it or access it, or even know exactly where it is. I always just considered it as a "spawn point" or a "portal" because contextualizing it was not forefront (to my slight embarrassment), but that's the explanation that fits my mind's-eye best here (My bad on the confusion, y'all). ~~~ I just want to discuss this one real quick, even though it's a bit of a side-tangent: A singular, one time transfer to, like, the Frostlands? That'd be slightly hilarious. The Rosharians would be completely overwhelmed if the entire U.S. military appeared and was prepared. As in, the entire thing? That's roughly 2.1 million soldiers; 10,000 jets; 350,000 infantry and cavalry vehicles; and over 3,000 howitzers. Plus, 400 ships (11 carriers, and assorted cruisers, corvettes, destroyers, and cargo ships). Aircraft carriers and submarines run without refueling on nuclear for a quarter of a century, so power is no issue, especially if you include the Janus deployable-reactor program. The only issue would be fuel, and that's assuming the entire U.S. military oil reserves aren't summoned too (SPR), and those can last for months, if not years. Food can be captured and grown. Besides, does that mean satellites too? Roshar would get annihilated. (Although it's not the way I've finally figured out it works, I just think that'd be hilarious.)