Kadrok

Maybe put that all in one post next time.

They only play in the evening though, the Bands of Morning open for them.

Hahaha! Brilliant!

Need to start a funeral music company called the Band of Mourning.

Also the bizarre scenario of why someone who logically has prime invincibilities stacked on top of each other to absurd levels would even worry about being hunted down.

We should've seen it coming.

Indeed! That also! A super-immortal fleeing doesn't make any sense at all given what the heroes knew (though they were pretty distracted by Limelight at the time). Limelight's plan makes sense since he doesn't actually have to kill Larcener, he just has to get his cells to make the Motivator, but I'm surprised no one questioned him. Maybe they assumed he knew Larcener's weakness?

I loved the Larcener as Calamity reveal because I have a love/hate relationship with permanent power theft/copying. It's such a cool power because it lets you have, as well as an assortment of powerful abilities, little "useless" abilities that are good in a day to day situations but you probably wouldn't want as your solitary power. I guess it's the difference between being a wizard and a superhero... having an assortment of random abilities which share the screen time, versus having a few core abilities you use in different ways. I loved the way Larcener used his powers, conjuring his comforts, making decoys and generally getting around like a really lazy wizard. Permanent power theft/copying is cool.

However it's also a terrible power because it becomes an "automatic pick" which distorts any interaction with the universe... my first impulse with the "create your own epic" thread was to make someone with power theft/copying. Because why not? I love Telekinesis, but why pick Telekinesis (or whatever power is your favourite) when you can pick a power that can let you have the power you actually want... and all the others! It also ruins the fictive universe, because in a universe of people with power theft/copying, the thieves/copycats not only start to quickly outclass everyone else, but also lose all the individuality of their powers and become homogeneous. So permanent power theft/copying sucks!

So when we first hear of/meet Larcener my reaction was "Dingo!" And then I started hoping he was really a non-epic who'd developed the motivator technology to masterful levels and whose array of powers were all derived from dead epics (which would have been a really cool story line by the way). But as irritating as his powers were (because of their universe breaking implications), I really enjoyed him as a character.

And then when he's revealed as Calamity, his differences from the other Assumers (who are implied to all be non-permanent power thieves, and therefore non-broken) are all explained, and the universe became non-broken again. Hooray! In hindsight, in fact, the severely broken nature of Larcener's powers strikes me as a hint intended to point to his true identity, much like the strange ways he is restricted also hint at what's ahead.

No problem. If you haven't seen it already, this might also interest you:

Herowannabe

Is Sigzil, as Hoid's apprentice, Rosharan?

Brandon Sanderson

He is from Roshar.

Herowannabe

Has Hoid taken him to other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Sig hasn't visited any other worlds.

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#53

The Coppermind Wiki is a goldmine of WoBs about specific characters. I knew this one existed, but it's nice to be able to just look up Sigzil and find the source of it

Brandon has noted a connection between Worldsinger and the Scadrian Worldbringers before. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1308-hoid-founded-the-worldsingers-and-worldbringers/#entry22043(This is the source the Coppermind uses for this information. I'm sure there was a better source for this... can anyone find it?)

Also, this (old) discussion might be of interest to you: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2504-sigzil/

I found the need for a corpse-boat weird too. Also, why a corpse?

Probably humans if they're hemalurgically spiked for any reason, and Koloss-blooded if they're not.

I always thought of Scadrial's Cognitive Realm as the Plane of Mists myself. Scadsmar is waaay too similar to Shadesmar to be recognisable is different IMO.

In Secret History dead Koloss appeared as Humans in Scadsmar (my pet name for Scadrial's Cognitive realm). Now that Sazed has changed the nature of Koloss, do dead Koloss appear as Koloss, or humans?

(Probably still humans would be my guess).

@mjk: You're amazing, thank you for that post.

Regarding the reappearance of Atium, I'm surprised no one has quoted this yet:

Interview: Oct, 2008
Hero of Ages Q&A - TWG (Verbatim)

zchance (15 October 2008)
I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruin's power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.

I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)
It's theoretically possible for atium to appear in the future, but right now Sazed has no plans to release any of it to the people. It is, effectively, now something of myth and legend.
 

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27sazed%27(Number 9)

IIRC, on theoryland in one of the history of Aons WoBs is the story of Arelon's founding, and IIRC it stated that they found Elantris already prebuilt but empty of life. I'll need to recheck this but perhaps the Ire are Elantrians from before the Arelish kingdom's founding and they vacated Elantris due to Devotion's and Dominion's upcoming duke-out with Odium.

EDIT: Found it! History of Aon Ehe http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=768#2

Ooooh, good theory! Makes sense.

Drat. I forgot about spoiler season. I can't edit my title. If we're still in spoiler season can a Mod change the title to something less spoilery. GAH! I'm sorry I forgot!

Forgive me if this has already been suggested (I do so hate reading the same speculations again and again expressed with varying degrees of eloquence, so if someone has already said this, I sympathize people, I do!).

Okay, so we know that compounding works by essentially reprogramming a metal, making it a key for a different power than usual. Basically you're using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy powers:

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27compounding%27

This is all known. My question is, what happens when a Compounder holds one of those fancy Cubes from the South and burns their metalminds?

Say Miles burns a fully charged metalmind while holding a cube and then flings the cube into an emergency ward (or Scadrian equivalent). Would the cube heal the patients? Send out waves of healing energy? Does the cube make Feruchemy external?

OR, does the healing cube simply repair itself (the dull option)?

Also, Compounded-Copper cubes as "holo"projectors? Compounded-Brass cubes as ovens or heaters? Feed people by compounding Bendalloy into a cube. So many applications!

Theater. It becomes expected that you will be Soothed and Rioted during the show. Metal anchors around the stage for Coinshots and Lurchers to use. Or even a metal harness with Metalborn stagehands. (Spoiled Tomatoes, anyone?) No need to worry about the Archivist forgetting their lines. Pretty much Metalborn ability can find a use in the theater.

Allomantic Gold appeals to me for its potential for actors. Call up alternate selves, learn their gait, learn how they hold themselves, what body language they use. Boom! Versatile actor.

There are whole sections on Mistings in society using their powers for their jobs in the Alloy of Law supplement of the Mistborn Adventure Game, for those who are interested.

That would be a cool thing to see as the tech level becomes more advanced. It would definitely add to the worldbuilding. If you've never seen the cartoon "The Legend of Korra" they do a similar thing in a scene where one of the characters uses his powers at a powerplant in order to make a little extra cash. It's a neat little touch I think adds to the plausibility of how the world would function.  

Pewter for any manual labor, ever.

Cadmium as a night guard, or any other job that requires a lot of waiting. You could speed through it in an instant.

I wonder if it would be illegal to hire a rioter to riot hunger in passerby near your restaurant... It seems like there is a lot of potential for shady business practices with Zinc and Brass.

One thing I really hope happens as the tech level becomes more advanced in the books is power plants powered by steel and iron mistings. Rather than have a giant coal plant that burns tons of coal a day, you could hire a couple of coinshots to push on a turbine and supply them with a tiny vial of steel shavings. Clean, cost effective energy, especially if they can ever get mechanical Allomancy properly sorted out.

Great minds think alike it seems, because generating power by Steel or Iron Allomancy is one of the innovations outlined in the Alloy of Law supplement:

Electric production is a growth industry. Just outside Elendel, the first of three planned power plants has been constructed. The massive plant uses teams of Coinshots and Lurchers to spin the generators that provide power. The iron and steel burned by the Mistings is far cheaper than powering the plant by coal or other means, since coal is reserved for use in smaller turbines, such as those in steam engines (see page 207).

For those who are interested you can get it here: http://www.crafty-games.com/buy-now/alloy-of-law/

(The core book is here: http://www.crafty-games.com/buy-now/mistborn-adventure-game/)

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a plug for the game, but I do like to include links to it whenever I reference any of it.

Marsh could be considered a Mistborn technically, others might be too, there is a certain person walking around with a Lerasium bead...   

But aside from those the title 'Mistborn' just sounds better than the potentially more accurate 'Metalborn' I guess.

Technically Marsh isn't a Mistborn. A Mistborn can burn all the allomantically viable metals, meaning not just the 16 but also any of the god metals and godmetal alloys. If a Mistborn stumbled randomly upon one of the 16 alloys of Atium and knew it was Allomantically viable, he'd be able to start burning it straight off. Marsh, on the other hand, would have to find a Mistborn to spike if he wanted to burn that metal.

We aren't even sure he's got any of the Post-Final Empire metals, unless he went ahead and murdered someone for Allomantic bendalloy, or Ruin decided it was worth killing a Mistborn for. Marsh only has the powers he was spiked for, and he probably can't even burn the full 16, let alone the other Atium Alloys (Lerasium and the Lerasium Alloys can be burned by anyone so they don't count). 

So yeah. Not a Mistborn, just a Misting with a whole bunch of tacked on powers.

Ahem. Disengaging nitpick-mode.

Super Gold metalmind?

Yes, but why Irich, the expert and Leecher who is willingly helping them research Southern Technology? Why be secretly and constantly draining him of Health (through some unknown means) and subjecting him to unnecessary risk in order to make a Super Gold Metalmind when they could (and apparently do) enslave others to make Super Gold Metalminds for them?

We know it's possible for the Set to produce unkeyed Gold Metalminds through a known means (using both Aluminum and Gold Feruchemy), and that they do so. Why suppose some unknown means which is far less efficient (draining one elderly man rather than a group of slaves), redundant to known techniques, and makes a willing servant of the Set less efficient at his job and more at risk of sudden death, necessitating the replacement of a man with potentially unique expertise?

Well... if Bands is anything to go by, it seems like he could have gotten it with a medallion made by a Feruchemist storing all of their abilities. Perhaps he's not a true Feruchemist, but perhaps he's cheated himself that way.

 

Anyone have evidence for/against this idea?

Since storing of ability seems to work more like non-Copper Feruchemy, that would only be a temporary source of Feruchemy... unless he was also a Nicroburst and compounded the investitures that gave him access to the Feruchemy powers.

I've suggested in the past based on that revelation regarding Preservation that perhaps the Lerasium beads once held a "Feruchemy" charge that you could tap to become a full Feruchemist, in the same way as one can burn Lerasium to become a Mistborn. If that were the case then Hoid showed up when Feruchemy was first being doled out and gain it then. The hole in that idea is, why would he have to have later stolen a bead of Lerasium? Surely he would have been aware enough to recognize the significance of the metal, even back then?

To be honest I'm starting to lean more towards the "Lerasium can store anything" theory rather than my "it grants Feruchemy through tapping" theory, but I'd still suggest that he very well could have been around when Feruchemy was first being doled out. Afterall, he has that connection with the Worldbringers...

Maybe he doesn't know that they are doing it to him.

What would be their motive?

Honestly I just got the impression he was old and dying in a very mundane way, and seeking a non-mundane solution to his problem, rather than that he'd been afflicted magically.

So with Irich I had the feeling that he was being used as a sort of health-battery for the creation and maintenance of the super full gold metal mind or something similar. Someone figured out how to sap someone' health "remotely" either through hemalurgy or some other means and he is the source. Not sure why, maybe some sort of punishment or volunteering for the progress of metallic arts science. I mean he seems pretty aware of his condition and what it means.

I think that would kill him, honestly. Unless you're suggesting he was so weak because they were draining him, in which case why would he be wishing for a miracle and not for the Set to stop draining him?

Regarding getting others to do the storing, my impression was that the Set had used Hemalurgy to produce people with both Aluminum Feruchemy and Gold Feruchemy (catch a Bloodmaker, grant them Aluminum Feruchemy; catch a Trueself, grant them Gold Feruchemy; grant someone both Gold and Aluminum) and had them just storing unkeyed Gold. Basically a Feruchemical Sweatshop. And the great (read: terrible) thing about Hemalurgy is that if the Sweatshop Feruchemists refuse to obey, you can just kill them and replace them with more accommodating slaves.

These should answer or expand some of the questions raised here:

Epigraph 9 of the Hero of Ages:

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

The beads were already there when Rashek took the power.

Part of Epigraph 78 explaining what the pits actually are and how they came about:

Atium, then, was an object that was one-sided. Instead of being composed of half Ruin and half Preservation—as, say, a rock would be—atium was completely of Ruin. The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment. Kelsier didn't truly destroy this place by shattering those crystals, for they would have regrown eventually—in a few hundred years—and continued to deposit atium, as the place was a natural outlet for Ruin's trapped power.

Also there are small wells under the Pits of Hathsin:

Dalenthas (15 October 2008)

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#20

Duralumin burns out almost instantly, I think, but there does appear to be a delay like with the metals the duralumin is flaring. Or I could be remembering it wrong.

Of course it could mean that it is flaring itself by its own effects when burned. I don't think anyone has burned it without burning something else first so we've never seen it burning by itself.

Technically we have: Vin burned Duralumin for ages trying to figure out what it did before she finally burned it with something else.

I think breeze was actually a savant. He even managed to sooth people during the battle of lutadel, while he was in a traumatic shock. Also he soothed people halfway unconciously most of the time.

It may interest you to know, then, that the MAG lists Breeze as a Brass Savant (page 513). It's a "take with a little salt" source, but I thought you'd want to know.

 

A couple of points:

• You assume storing Investiture is quantitative - i.e. you store a certain amount of the Investiture you already have for later retrieval. The impression I got from reading The Bands of Mourning was that it's qualitative instead, i.e. you store your ability to use (a specific type of) Investiture. I admit I am hazy on the details, so I could be wrong here.

It's both, or at least that was my impression. I think of it like Tin. You do store specific types of investiture, just as you store specific senses, as different pools. But there is a quantity of that ability... like stored Sight you can tap a lot of it to have a greater effect. At least, that's what I'm supposing.

Regarding how the Southerners get their medallions, I got the impression that only the heat ones can run out of juice, and since the Firemothers and Firefathers the Sovereign set up the Southerners with are likely brass Compounders, running out of heat is never a problem for them. So running out of heat fabrials ter'angreals medallions shouldn't be a problem either.

What gave you that impression? And when you talk of running out of juice, are you talking about running out of the stored heat, or the stored ability to tap that heat (Firesoul investiture)?

EDIT: Also, how long has there been a bracket in front of the title? I only just noticed it and already it's driving me mad.