skaa

Wow. I edited my other Feruchemy thread on aluminum a few hours ago to take into account the "personality" rules you mentioned yesterday. But now I learn that Aluminum has another ability... and it's incompatible with my new theory. *sigh* Oh well, back to the drawing board. Thanks anyway, Kadrok, for being patient with someone like me who doesn't have a copy of MAG and who's got lots of wild ideas running around his head. I might buy the game one of these days if I ever get some extra cash. 15 US dollars is a significant amount of money here in the Philippines, and I'm not even a gamer so I won't be able to use it much after I've read all of it. I'm gonna try to do a third revision of my Nicrosil theory later with the limits you gave. Ah, what I'd do for a Zincmind right now...

Well, that's one way to interpret it, I'm sure. Would you mind sharing a link to the actual text of the MAG rules? It would make discussions more convenient if we were all on the same page. Anyway, my theory already assumes that the MAG rules aren't all there is to nicrosil Feruchemy. Maybe Terrismen will discover other aspects of Investiture later. Perhaps the Terrismen were just too used to not being able to use other people's metalminds that they never even tried to experiment on it with nicrosil, so they never discovered that ability (at least, not yet). After all, it would only work on Cognitive metalminds, anyway. What decent, self-respecting Terrisman would ask if he could borrow his colleague's Copperminds? That depends on how well thought-out Realmatic Theory is. It is trivial in a magical environment to imagine traits like heat, strength, speed, etc. being converted to each other. But what happens when you try to convert Investiture to Memory? I don't think you can, especially not if you got that Investiture from something like Strength. It just doesn't make sense. Unless... the Investiture stored came from another Coppermind... a Memory Investiture. I already said in my revised theory that I think Nicrosilminds can distinguish the source of Investiture. That's why I believe it could preserve the form of a Memory Investiture that it took from a Coppermind. The Memory will have to be stored in a separate Nicrosilmind, though, or at least one that is reserved for Memories. Otherwise, the Memory might be destroyed. Which leads us to... There it is, evidence that you can use nicrosil to access metalminds other than yours. If a Feruchemist with a Nicrosilmind can "store" into other people's metalminds, why can't he tap them? That doesn't seem very consistent.

Yes, it is Physical, which is why I also have a problem with it. Nevermind the problems regarding the laws of Physics (that's always an issue w/ most magic systems, anyway, even the more "realistic" ones), what about the cognitive problems? We know that there is a Feruchemical trait called Mental Speed (stored in zinc), so Physical Speed and Mental Speed are inherently separate traits (at least on Scadrial). So how do Steelrunners prevent themselves from stumbling and crashing all over the place when running super fast? They shouldn't have the mental speed to prevent such accidents unless they were full Feruchemists and can tap Mental Speed from a Zincmind. This wouldn't be an issue if steel Feruchemy was Temporal. Then it would just be like bendalloy/cadmium Allomancy. But no, there doesn't seem to be any Temporal Feruchemy (as Voidus pointed out). I guess the only viable use of Steelminds w/o Zincminds, then, is to perform relatively safe activities at an increased speed. While sitting or standing. Perhaps with padded furniture. Or perhaps... to perform a super-fast punch that would knock down your opponent long enough for you to stand up and regain your balance (coz you'll probably stumble in the process). So much for the moniker "Steelrunner" then, eh? Edit: Well... I guess instinctive reflexes aren't really part of "mental speed" per se; it can be considered a Physical trait that is also sped up by Steel. So Steelrunners might not be as clumsy as I thought they'd be.

Holy moly, Pechvarry! You're right! When a Feruchemist stores something into a metalmind, what he's really doing (in Realmatic terms) is Investing the metalmind with parts of his Physical, Spiritual, or Cognitive aspects. That act is a form of Investiture. That's why you can store a metalmind's contents in a Nicrosilmind (which stores Investiture). You're basically Investing the Nicrosilmind with Investiture from your other metalmind. But we know that Feruchemically stored things are not the only kind of Investiture that can be stored in Nicrosilminds. There's also Investiture from Physical manifestations of Shards (the Mist, or the Well of Ascension), as well as Investiture gained from Allomancy. So... what if all kinds of Investiture can be stored? That would include Investiture taken from Hemalurgical spikes. And since the Spiritual DNA of a typical post-Adonalsium Cosmere human being was Invested to him by a Shard (e.g. Preservation), one's own Spiritual DNA (i.e. the thing that makes you a Feruchemist, or a Mistborn, etc.) should be storable in Nicrosilminds! Alright, I officially revive my original theory (that Nicrosilminds can store abilities) as a valid sub-theory of the larger theory above. Now it's time to develop it further. I further theorize that while nicrosil Feruchemy can receive from any source of Investiture, it can still distinguish which Investiture came from what source. If an Investiture requires a specific Spiritual DNA or Physical DNA, you're going to have to incorporate that into your own body via Hemalurgy. Otherwise, you'll just end up with an inaccessible Nicrosilmind you won't be able to store that Investiture. (Ewww... who'd want to incorporate someone else's Physical DNA into his own? Besides Koloss, I mean.) Anyway, this has a very interesting implication. It means that a Feruchemist with a Nicrosilmind can actually take the contents of another person's metalmind. But it also means that he won't be able to access the stolen content unless it has no Physical or Spiritual requirements (or unless he uses Hemalurgy). But that also means that if the stolen content is just a Cognitive trait, he should be able to access it. Let me repeat: a Feruchemist with a Nicrosilmind can steal the contents of another Feruchemist's Cognitive metalminds. What are the Cognitive metals? Brass, Zinc, Bronze... and Copper. Feruchemists, hide your Copperminds! (Note that it was 2AM when I suddenly woke up and thought this whole thing up. It's 3AM now. I think I'm gonna have to see a shrink after this...) Edit: I crossed out everything that contradicted MAG rules as described by Kadrok. I still think that what's left is a pretty workable theory for nicrosil Feruchemy. It's not as powerful as I originally thought, but that's okay since Feruchemy has always been all about balance, right?

I see a problem with that. If a person is already naturally wishy washy, what happens to him while storing? If he stores his wishy washy personality, making him less wishy washy, that would contradict the rules as described by Kadrok.

So it basically just stores stubbornness? That's a bit... disappointing, actually. Brandon said that Compounding aluminum does nothing, but if aluminum Feruchemy is a counter to emotional Allomancy, won't Compounding it be useful against, say, a Lord Ruler-level super-Soothing? Meh. I'll just wait for the Mistborn book that shows nicrosil and aluminum Feruchemy in action. Perhaps there's still a chance that Brandon supplied some non-canon rules for the MAG.

Not necessarily. Let's call the original you "Phantom Primus" and your Peace Corps-joining alternate Identity "Phantom Secundus". If Phantom Secundus tries to store his decision to join the Peace Corps, there are two possibilities: (1) If you had more viable choices back then other than just college or Peace Corps, Phantom Tertius would be someone who made another choice. Perhaps he started a business. Or maybe he also went to college, but took a different degree. It would have to be a choice that you seriously considered at that time, though. (2) If college or Peace Corps really was your only choice, then Phantom Secundus would find that he couldn't store his Peace Corps decision in a Nicrosilmind at all. It just wouldn't work, because the only other Identity that made a different decision was already stored. Now, if Secundus ever notices that one of his Nicrosilminds already contained something, he'd realize that he isn't the prime Identity and, via deduction, that Phantom Primus didn't go to the Peace Corps. In which case, if Secundus just thought for a bit, he'd wonder "Why did Primus want an Identity that joined the Peace Corps?" At that point, he could start looking for clues as to what his mission is, perhaps by checking his Copperminds (assuming that you are a full Feruchemist) or looking for instructions that Primus left behind. . . . Edit: Okay, having been acquainted with the MAG rules RE:aluminum Feruchemy, I might have to do a major revision of my theory. While I'm not convinced that the MAG rules really are all there is to it, they did come from Brandon, so we might as well assume that it's at least close to the real canon. Here's a theory that still links aluminum Feruchemy and gold Allomancy as well as the MAG rules. Let's call it Skaa's Theory of Aluminum Feruchemy #2: When an aluminum Feruchemist stores and taps "Identity", he is doing exactly what Miles was doing in AoL: creating an "alloy" of himself. The two persons that a gold Allomancer sees are the two extremes of his Identity, and these are also the two extremes of aluminum Feruchemy. Except unlike Miles, the Feruchemist has fine-tuned control over his "alloy-making" because those two extremes lie on opposite ends of an Identity spectrum that a Feruchemist can move through via storing or tapping Identity. Also, when a Feruchemist uses aluminum, there is an actual change in his Spiritual Identity. In the case of gold Allomancy, this is why Miles and Vin felt "weak" after burning gold. This change in Spiritual Identity is what causes the increase or decrease in susceptibility to emotional Allomancy while moving through the Identity spectrum. I'm aware that this isn't exactly how the MAG rules go, but I'm betting on the possibility that Brandon deliberately used a slightly non-canonical set of rules in this case to make the gameplay less weird (I mean, compared to what Miles was doing). I still kind of like my first theory more, but this will have to do for now.

Oh! I almost forgot about MAG. I don't think it's available where I live. Thanks for the info, Kadrok! Okay, I'm willing to suspend my own nicrosil theory for now, unless Brandon says that this particular MAG rule isn't canon. (MAG wouldn't happen to have rules for aluminum Feruchemy, would it? ) But since AoL says that people using nicrosil Feruchemy don't really know exactly what they're doing, I bet there's even more to it than just that. What if this "generic energy" can be converted to non-Scadrial Investiture? Say, convert it to BioChroma, or Stormlight, or even Dor. I guess you'd still need to have non-Scadrial spiritual DNA for that to work, though... (Hemalurgy, anyone? ) Anyway, if I correctly understand your description of MAG rules on the matter, tapping a Nicrosilmind acts a bit (but not exactly) like Allomantic duralumin in that it allows the Feruchemist to sort of get more power out of his other metals (say, get more strength when tapping from his Pewtermind). This makes me wonder if there's an inherent relationship between duralumin and nicrosil in the Metallic Arts, since Allomantic duralumin and Allomantic nicrosil also work in similar ways (except in the recipient of their power). In which case, maybe duralumin Feruchemy ("Spiritual Connection/Friendship") somehow has a yet-unknown connection to Investiture. I have a question about MAG-type nicrosil Feruchemy. Does Investiture storage require that you have another non-empty metalmind to get Investiture from, or can a full Feruchemist store any trait as Investiture directly to a Nicrosilmind? Another question: For example, if you have more Investiture stored in a Nicrosilmind than you have Strength stored in a Pewtermind, how much total Strength can you tap? Just twice your Pewtermind's contents? Or can you convert all your Investiture to Strength? I guess the way it would work is when a Twinborn taps Investiture while burning a metal, it would boost the Allomantic power that he'd produce even if he's not flaring. I wonder if a Twinborn could reach duralumin-burst-like levels of Allomantic power using this "generic energy" without immediately depleting his metal reserves. That would be awesome!

Whoa! This sounds exactly like my own theory about Aluminum and Identity. I thought I was the first to think of that, but apparently not. I should have read more threads before starting my own.

What an awesome way describe it! I feel like such a badass geek now even if it's just pretend.

You're right. I guess that is one of my big assumptions. I based my theory partially on Soul Forging, but I did say from the start that there would be differences. Oh well, that's my theory. I'm starting to imagine what it would be like once aluminum Feruchemy is completely understood. I can already see some interesting uses. Maybe I'll write a fanfic about it one of these days.

Ooh, that's pretty cool. What does compounding memory do? Does it make the memory clearer or something? Anyway, that's still beside the point that storing a past decision can't really be compounded, so attempting to do so does nothing. Not really. Remember that full Feruchemists are rare as of AoL, so aluminum research would most likely rely on Trueselves, and this will make things more complicated. Here are some things that make it difficult to study aluminum Feruchemy: Let me describe what the best-case scenario would be for an individual Trueself that tries to perform aluminum Feruchemy to determine what it does. Step 1: Meditate and search for thoughts, traits, anything that could be stored in your Aluminummind. Step 2: Find yourself in some other location, hours after you started your experiment, without knowing how you got there, and with your Aluminummind still empty. Step 3: Go "This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules?!" Here's a bad scenario: Step 1: Do Step 1 as above. Step 2: Find yourself about to be arrested or killed or in some other compromising situation due to a stupid thing "you" did that you have absolutely no memory of doing (coz you're just a Trueself and therefore can't use Copperminds). Step 3: Vow to never research about aluminum Feruchemy ever again. Here's a worse scenario: Step 1: (Same) Step 2: The original you never sees the light of day again, since the alternate you had no knowledge of your Trueself nature and sold your Aluminummind for a quick buck. I believe this scenario is going to be very common until knowledge of aluminum Feruchemy becomes widespread. Here's the worst-case scenario: Step 2: Your alternate Identity died five years ago. None of those would result in a better understanding of aluminum Feruchemy. Now of course the above scenarios all assume that the Trueself is working on his own, but even if he was part of a research team, there are still scenarios that will not lead to any progress at all: You stored an inconsequential decision, leading to an alternate Identity that is virtually identical to your original Identity. The research team concludes that aluminum Feruchemy has no effects. Your alternate Identity is quite different from you, but he panics after finding himself somewhere he did not expect, and refuses to cooperate with your research team. The research team concludes that aluminum Feruchemy does something to the brain that makes a person unstable, and is probably too dangerous to use. Your alternate Identity is a dangerous criminal and kills one of your fellow researchers. The research team concludes that aluminum Feruchemy is definitely too dangerous to use. You or your alternate Identity gets charged with murder and executed. Upon attempting aluminum Feruchemy, you die. Your fellow researchers are charged with murder, and most of them get the death penalty. So you see, I don't think my version of aluminum Feruchemy is going to be very obvious to Terrismen at all.

Interesting. I guess that would be one way to balance out the advantage of getting extra Investitures. I was actually thinking a few minutes ago that Hoid might be using nicrosil Feruchemy somehow to wield multiple Investitures, but that won't be much use if the powers degrade over time.

Oh, cadmium Allomancy! Another power that seems to be useful only in rare, specific, occasions. Kind of like my theory of aluminum Feruchemy and gold Allomancy, eh? I think we kind of agree now. A Metallic Art doesn't have to be useful in most normal situations. That was my main counter-argument to your complaint about usefulness. I believe I already mentioned my argument against the self-awareness and tapping-other-metalminds theories. They just don't explain the strange reaction of Terrismen towards aluminum. It has to be something more mysterious. I guess that's why I like my pseudo-Soul Forging theory. Also, my theory would explain Brandon's comment about aluminum Compounding. You don't compound Identity for the same reason that you don't compound Memory; compounding is simply pointless for such things.

I can think of a few benefits: You won't have to rely on always wearing spikes which (as we've seen in the first trilogy) can be removed by powerful/persistent/resourceful/lucky opponents. You won't have to listen to Harmony if you don't want to (e.g. if you're a villain); even Pathians don't wear their earrings all the time. You can have all your bind points pierced at some point, and you'll retain all the abilities you gain. You can blend in with normal non-pierced people and not have to worry about your spikes losing their charge or having to repierce when you need to fight. I imagine it would be possible to use nicrosil to compound some Invested abilities like Allomancy (which does have levels of power unlike, say, Forgery). So you can become as powerful an Allomancer as the Lord Ruler even when the spikes you originally used were weak. Like I said, I really wouldn't mind if nicrosil Feruchemy will only be used by villains. Maybe Brandon will find some clever way for a protagonist to use it, or maybe not. If we had another Lord Ruler-level villain, so what? He still wouldn't compare to god-level enemies like Ruin and Odium, right?

Thanks for the comment, Voidus! We'll just have to agree to disagree about that, I'm afraid, unless Brandon explicitly says that memory storage is the only Feruchemy that causes permanent change. The existence of Allomantic Gnats kind of refutes the argument that all Metallic Arts have to be useful even on their own. Heck, aluminum Allomancy is counterproductive even for a Mistborn. I could think of other examples: Gold Allomancy has always been regarded as almost completely useless in the books. Oracles are probably useless now since there are no longer any Atium users to fight (though I could think of a use for electrum shadows coupled with zinc Feruchemy in rare life-or-death situtations). Tapping physical speed (steel Feruchemy) would probably be too dangerous to the user without first tapping mental speed (zinc Feruchemy). Anyway, Voidus, may I ask what your thoughts on aluminum Feruchemy are?

Voidus, I'm afraid you've been picking at minor, irrelevant points, so let me rephrase my counter-argument. I *know* that memory storage is, as of now, the only trait we've seen in the books that is permanently lost upon storage. But just because it's the only exception we've seen so far doesn't mean there aren't other exceptions. I think Investiture storage works just like memory storage. That's my theory, anyhow. Whether or not Brandon decides to make a nicrosil Feruchemy antagonist or a nicrosil Feruchemy protagonist is completely up to him.

I think I'm better off as a tin Allomancy, copper Feruchemy Twinborn. It solves two of my worst real-life traits (forgetfulness and poor eyesight) and probably won't attract too many enemies. I'm not really the adventurous type, you see? Oh, but what am I saying. I'm just a skaa, after all.

Of all the base metals, only two have Feruchemical properties that are not yet well understood even by Terrismen as of AoL. These are Nicrosil and Aluminum. I would like to put forth my ideas regarding them. This thread is about aluminum. I already created a thread about nicrosil. You could read that if you want. Here's what the Coppermind Wiki says about aluminum Feruchemy: The spoiler tag below contains my original theory ("Skaa's Theory of Aluminum Feruchemy #1"). Most of the replies on this page probably refer to this one. Now, presenting Skaa's Theory of Aluminum Feruchemy #2 (which I now espouse): When an aluminum Feruchemist stores and taps "Identity", he is doing exactly what Miles was doing in AoL: creating an "alloy" of himself. An alloy of his Spiritual Identity. The two persons that a gold Allomancer sees are the two extremes of his Identity: his Past Identity (or What He Could Have Been) and his Present Identity (or What He Is Now Becoming), and these are also the two extremes of aluminum Feruchemy. Except unlike Miles, the Feruchemist has fine-tuned control over his "alloy-making" because those two extremes lie on opposite ends of a Spiritual Identity spectrum that a Feruchemist can move through via storing or tapping Spiritual Identity. But it is still the same basic thing as the "self-alloying" done by Miles. In the case of gold Allomancy, this is why both Miles and Vin felt "weak" after burning gold: they were messing with their Spiritual Identity, and they apparently weren't very good at it. This change in Spiritual Identity is also what causes the increase or decrease in susceptibility to emotional Allomancy while tapping or storing Aluminumminds. I'm aware that this isn't exactly how the MAG rules go, but I'm betting on the possibility that Brandon deliberately used a slightly non-canonical set of rules in this case to make the gameplay less weird (I mean, compared to what Miles was doing). Edit: Note that this is just one connection between Aluminum and Gold that I've discovered. Another can be found here.

Correction: we have not yet seen Feruchemy create complete loss of something, the exception being copper. Other metalminds store traits that would either be fatal or paradoxical if stored completely (e.g. storing all your nutrition in a Bendalloymind would kill you). Logically speaking, memories (copper) and Invested abilities (nicrosil) can be safely stored in their entirety. And in the case of some Invested abilities like Forgery and [insert-metal-name-here] Feruchemy, you're probably forced to store them completely since they're not really divisible (what would storing 65% of Forgery Investiture look like?!). I agree. Just like Steel Inquisitors, a Feruchemist with Nicrosilminds and knowledge of Hemalurgy would probably be villainous, especially once he realizes the existence of other Shardworlds. Or for all we know he could be a Pathian, a follower of Harmony, and is content with whatever ability he got from his Hemalurgical earring.

Of all the base metals, only two have Feruchemical properties that are not yet well understood even by Terrismen as of AoL. These are nicrosil and aluminum. I would like to put forth my thoughts regarding them. This thread will be about nicrosil. Here's my thread about aluminum. According to the Coppermind Wiki, this is what we know about nicrosil Feruchemy: My theory is that nicrosil allows its user to store any Invested abilities. Not just Feruchemical or Allomantic abilities, but any human-level magic ability in the Cosmere. One could say that nicrosil Feruchemy is like the Feruchemical equivalent of duralumin Allomancy: it's useless when it's your only power, but can be useful when combined with other powers. Note that once a Soulbearer stores his single Invested ability (nicrosil Feruchemy) in a Nicrosilmind, he won't be able to get it back since his power to access his Nicrosilmind would be absent. Whoops. "So what's the use of storing abilities?" you might ask. At first glance, it doesn't seem to be useful even to full Feruchemists since there seems to be little sense in storing your own Feruchemical powers. It could be a way to strengthen a Twinborn's Allomantic power (e.g. make your Rioting stronger by spending time with just a fraction of your zinc Allomancy), but that still doesn't sound terribly exciting (especially for a Gnat Twinborn). But wait, we're forgetting the third Metallic Art: Hemalurgy. There are hundreds of hemalurgical spike points in the body, and it's possible that non-Scadrial powers can be stolen via Hemalurgy. But as we know, there are drawbacks: A Hemalurgical spike's charge grows weaker over time (unless you keep it in your body constantly). Any ability obtained from a spike disappears once the spike is removed. The smaller a spike is, the less charge it can have. It is probably not physically possible to place decent-sized spikes on all the bind points in a human body without tearing the body apart. Having lots of spikes in one's body makes one very conspicuous. What if all those drawbacks can be avoided? Let me present this scenario: Imagine a Feruchemist who understood the full potential of nicrosil. One day, he finds a treasure chest full of Hemalurgical spikes of all types that are already helpfully labelled (alright, that's quite unlikely; let's just say he used lots of Chromiumminds earlier that day ). Let's say he takes a bronze spike charged with gold Allomancy, and uses it to become a gold Compounder just like Miles. Then (and here's the important part), he stores his new gold Allomancy power in one of his Nicrosilminds. Why is this important? Because once he retrieves that power back by tapping the Nicrosilmind, the power no longer belongs to the spike; it now belongs to him. He can therefore remove the spike and still be a gold Compounder. He repeats the process using other spikes, healing his wounds as he discards each spike. Soon, he finds himself wielding all the powers of a Mistborn alongside his Feruchemy powers, and there's not a single spike in his body! He can use the same trick to obtain all the Invested abilities in Cosmere (well, Stormlight and Dor-based powers might be tricky to use while he's on Scadrial, but maybe Hoid could teach him world-hopping). He'd look just like a normal human being, but he'd be magical in ALL the Shardworlds. What do you guys think of that? Edit: After Kadrok informed me about how nicrosil Feruchemy is explained in MAG, I decided to incorporate that and my theory above into a larger theory: nicrosil Feruchemy can store any kind of Investiture: Invested abilities, contents of metalminds, Spiritual DNA, etc. Read all about it here.

Oh, strange, I thought the ash volcanoes were there because humans wouldn't be able to survive the sun's heat without them, since TLR placed Scadrial too close to the sun. I guess I misread.

I think it's safe to assume that the south pole inhabitants also experienced regular ashfall during TLR's reign. That probably limited the kinds of technology they could build. For example, I suspect it wouldn't be safe to fly airplanes through an ash-filled atmosphere. By the way, does anyone know if the mists existed in the south pole?

My undesirable specialty is doing everything slowly. My "superhero" name would probably be "The Snail" or "The Tortoise" or something. My detailed description of this "specialty" is lengthy enough that I got a bit embarrassed by it, so I'll just put it in a Spoilers tab.

Hi! Yep, I have read Firstborn. I'm much more into book series with complex plots, but I do know how to enjoy a well-written short story.