Leuthie

I don't know why Odium used "we," but it's pretty clear in WaT that Honor never died. Tanavast died after Honor left him. Honor was chillin' with the Stormfather the whole time, hidden from Odium. When Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity, Odium saw that Honor was still alive and bonded to Dalinar. Hence "We killed you"

The Sibling is made from the primordial Spren of Stone. Stormfather is made from the primordial Spren of Wind. These two facts have support. Nightwatcher was probably made from the primordial Spren of Night. While the Unmade could have been fashioned from the remnants of these, I'm guessing not. 

I'm 90% sure that the Unmade were fashioned from the 9 True Spren (Spren that bond with Radiants). Before the Unmade, the True Spren were single Spren. There was one honorspren, one Cryptic, one Cultivationspren, etc. Odium corrupted these Spren to create his Unmade. Since the concepts that created the True Spren still existed, new Spren took their place. Tanavast and Ishar created the Knights Radiant concept after these new True Spren started popping up in numbers and bonding with humans, mimicking the lesser spren bonds with all other creatures of Roshar. They took it a step further and created the Unique Spren above out of the Primordial Spren of Roshar (which, of course, Ishar became the patron of). 

Unless someone can find WoB to the contrary, this is still what I'm sticking with.

On 7/10/2025 at 10:32 AM, Argenti said:

He hemmed and hawed quite a bit, though. I bet there's an Asterisk.

That's usually not his style in these kinds of things. Part of the existence of the Unmade is that their creation further locked Odium to the Rosharan system. It also seems a bit absurd for Brandon to have Odium carry 9 Aethers with him to Roshar to corrupt just so Brandon can use semantics to make us think they're native to Roshar.

On 7/11/2025 at 9:09 AM, Sythrin said:

I think with the years his writing style has become less refined.

Don‘t get me wrong, his world building, plot ideas and magic system developments becomes maybe better and better with each iterarion.

But I kinda have the feeling that the epic moments in the later books become kinda less and less impactful. They miss the certain umpf factor and don‘t get me goosepumb like the earlier. Scenes like

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the shardduell with adolin, Dalinar giving up his blade, Kelsier dyning to Rashek.

The newest books kinda miss it. Maybe just the delivery is not as strong. Especialy in Wind and Truth. Like 2 of the biggest scenes are kinda muddled by callback quotes to other better scenes.

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Like dalinars death or Kaladin ascension to being a Herald.

Does anybody see it similar.

I think his rigid structure for Stormlight but propensity for adding more elements during discovery writing is the reason for the issues with KoWT. Too much had to be crammed into a single package. His other works haven't had similar issues.

On 6/24/2025 at 1:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

I mainly writing this to try to understand my own thoughts on this. I don’t really expect any replies, but if you do want to reply, that’s fine.
A core theme of a Brandon is ignorance. Seems to portray everyone as ignorant wandering around in the dark, especially about things concerning morality. But the more I read to him, the more he uses this theme. The more dissatisfied with it I become. In This last book it particularly irked me. I’ve been trying to figure out why.
 

more I think about it I think it comes down to that this even if it is true it is unbelievable from the human perspective. True, you can all say that we are all ignorant wandering in the dark, but no one really believes that at least no one I’ve met. True I’ve met people who say that they don’t actually have any moral knowledge only a moral perspective but when I actually confronted they vehemently insist that actually they KNOW murder is wrong, racism is wrong and so on.

Real ignorance it seems should lead to stressful indecision or depressing nihilism. Both of which are mind rejects on our subconscious level.

I think the reason why it particularly bothered me in this last book was because it seemed to go contrary to the theme of this book . Because if this is true then Nale is right. If it is true that everyone is coming from a place of ignorance concerning morality than the only thing you can do is trust in something beyond human. And hope that they or it is better. Well those are my thoughts take them as you will.

Do you know the source of your moral code? Do you know why your friends think murder, racism and so on are wrong? Do you think those who murder, racism or so on believe that what they are doing is right? If you don't have a ready answer, that's what ignorance looks like. Don't worry, most people are ignorant. 

Ignorance of the source of your morality doesn't result in indecision or nihilism (although your statement that the mind rejects those on a subconscious level is wrong), it results in poor choices when conflicting sets of moral touch points are experienced. Not in the person making poor choices, but in the person believing that all choices available are poor ones. THIS is what Sanderson explores.

On 6/24/2025 at 5:13 PM, Honors ghost said:

Yes I agree with what stormcursed and singworlder have said and to follow up on what stormcursed said, personally WaT has pushed me to revaluate the way I look at the world because of the characters moral ignorance and I think your right at a base level everyone has a understanding of morals but if you ask deeper questions the morals get trickier. 
 

for example from a entirely moral standpoint if you were at a place where multiple people could die the morally correct thing to do is save as many people as possible however if a parent or loved one is there and you face the choice of saving ten people but not the loved one or saving the loved one but not the ten people you will likely choose to save the loved one even if the truly moral decision would be saving the ten people.

Your moral conundrum isn't as clear as you paint it. Quantity over quality, sacrificing someone against their will for random people none of you know... Here's my heirarchy of who to save first:

1. The most likely to be saved (closest, least damaged, etc)
2. People I know
3. People I don't know
4. Animals I know
5. Animals I don't know
6. Things

Quantity doesn't factor into it. I'll leave 100 people I don't know to save my wife. Hopefully I can come back for them when she's safe. The fact that I'd save them before my dog is good enough for me.

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But that would not factor into why both Windspren and GravitySpren are part of his Shardplate. 

Why wouldn't it? Wouldn't having a humongous pile of Investiture attached to you attract more spren?

Investiture drives the Cosmere. By rule, this Investiture would coalesce over time and gain sentience. This was Adonalsium. The thinking Investiture would begin to consciously drive the universe, shaping it to its will. Eventually, this shaping would go against the vision of enough people that they'd want to remove the thinking Investiture. They'd discover how, gather the bits of power and accomplish the deed. Having split Adonalsium, they could then control the pieces. Better, smarter custodians of the power.

Can Cultivation be a blending factor with Ruin and Preservation? It would give the two opposing Shards a common direction that they could both contribute to. Is that a direction that Brandon is going? 

Kaladin's story arc is over. He's now not mortal. There will be no romance.

There's a difference between Taravangian trying to grab Dalinar's soul after killing him and a Shard accepting a vessel. Taravangian had no claim on Dalinar. The powers he held had no claim on Dalinar. Cultivation had a hook in Dalinar related to his boon and curse. The God Beyond is unknowable and also a possibility. Nohadon could be more than just a Cognitive Echo, but it isn't going to claim any souls IMO. Honor didn't claim Dalinar. Honor hardly wanted to be attached to Dalinar for the time it was. Endowment isn't part of this story and her jumping in and claiming Dalinar wasn't foreshadowed in any way.

So we have Cultivation or the God Beyond. I agree that the Beyond pulling Dalinar's soul in and protecting it is posssible but boring. Cultivation is where I'm at. She used Dalinar. She knew her use of Dalinar would result in him being vulnerable, so she protected him. I also believe there were lines indicating that Dalinar was in the Beyond in the conclusion, so we'll never really find out the exact nature of that line.

Can a horse ride another horse? It's possible, but why?

He exists as Investiture in the Spiritual Realm as of the end of WaT. That Investiture wasn't missing fingers long enough to "want" to remake itself without fingers. The loss of fingers will never be mentioned again.

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Small correction - Dalinar did not Connect to the Beyond, he Connected to the Spiritweb Corpse in the Spiritual Realm. 

If your picture is still on the ofrenda you can be Connected to and used to advance someone's agenda

4 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I think those 3 were the bigger problem in that regard, because they were so very obviously meant to be over their character arcs.

I didn't think about that. Yeah, they were all done developing. 4 Luke Skywalkers.

I enjoyed reading Wind and Truth. I liked the ending and where the world is going into the break. The mysteries answered were answered well. The mysteries left are intriguing. 

That said, this was the worst prose BS has written. Everything was bland. I've said it in previous posts: you can see the outline. His outlines tend to expand as he writes and rarely contract. The rigid structure of SA probably left him with way too much to accomplish in one book and no room to really breath and hide the outline.

But the biggest problem to me was the loss of voice for nearly every character. Combine reaching the end of their character arcs with having most internal monologue and external conversation dedicated to infodumps, Brandon didn't have much room for character voice. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar never got angry or worried the entire story, or at least never showed it. They were always thoughtful and introspective. Bland. Sigzil could have been Kaladin or <Random Bridge 4 #7>. Venli was once a scholar and is back to being a scholar, with scholarly thoughts that were similar to all of the other thoughtful, introspective characters. Renarin and Rlain were two sides to the same coin and both sounded like everyone else that was thoughtful and introspective.

Also, 1/4 of the book took place in the Spiritual Realm where nothing actually interesting happened on screen. It was a vehicle for flashbacks. There was no room for a truly terrifying nightmare scene or a euphoric side quest or anything that really brought wonder to the new Realm. The Cognitive Realm is amazing. The Spiritual Realm is bland.

Oh, and a very large portion of the work the characters did was erased in the end. But that's just a consequence of failure. Everyone failed in some way. That was the point and actually an interesting. But to really hit, it needed to be told less linearly. With less visible outline.

But these are all just nitpicks. Things I wish were improved. Still liked the story and enjoyed reading it. 

Dalinar broke all previous Oaths made by Honor while holding Honor. If Honor as Retribution still wants to hold to that limit, it may keep Taravangian from acting against it. But there is no longer a binding Oath.

Dai-Gonarthis has greater participation in Stormlight Archive than Kelsier does in Mistborn Era 2. If they don't already know who Thaidakar was by the end of Rhythm of War, you don't have to worry about the reading order. They won't really get any of it, anyway.

Kelsier held and gave up Preservation. Vin held Preservation and was mutually destroyed by Ruin. Sazed then picked up both Shards. Vin didn't willingly give up Preservation.

Kelsier did.

And both were full Ascensions.

I think Hoid was talking about himself.

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

She expects the other Shards to fight Retribution. If she wants to survive long term Retribution has to be defeated. That makes Roshar a target. Roshar in her mind is the place you do not want to be. It is like going on a trip to Hirosima on Aug, 1 of 1945, knowing what is to come. Not advisable.

Yeah. Hence the running away. But she is tied to Roshar, diminished by leaving behind Splinters of herself, and probably drawn to return by the power itself. She never wanted to be on Roshar, but she stayed for Tanavast. She has no reason to return except for 10,000 years spent Invested there. And I'm willing to bet that Cultivation doesn't just give up on things it's Cultivating. Cultivation (the concept) doesn't really have an end game. It's a concept of preparing and using things. When crops are sewn, the cultivation of the land doesn't end.

So meeting the Intent of the power she holds, Kora will be pulled to see things through. This means her plans are still in effect, including preparing and using Retribution.

Or the entire plan was to free Tanavast from his self imposed prison in the Storm and get the hell off of the planet. That actually fits the person's personality if not the Power's Intent.

Cultivation left a lot of herself on Roshar. The Sibling, the spren, the simple fact that she was there so long. She has to have a plan to return. 

Just now, AlmightyGir said:

Odium already controlled (and Jasnah/Queen Fen knew this as well) the other nations. Thaylena was the only non-militarily contested nation left for him to approach by the time the debate took place. Alethkar holding more territory would have benefitted her greatly, especially a major port city that Odium was bound (at that point) to not be allowed to attack after the showdown.

After the contest, trying to hold a detached nation where the populace hates you for killing their leaders would have suited Odium just fine. 

Odium instantly let Jasnah know that he was already prepared to assassinate every Thaylan City leader and take the city by force if Fen hadn't agreed to his terms. Losing the debate was the best outcome for Jasnah and Thaylan City, ultimately.

Also, Jasnah assassinating Thaylan City leadership herself and holding the City in the name of Alethkar would only serve Odium in the end. 

Allowing Odium 10 days to convince the world's leadership to hand control to him was the issue. God created the world in 7 days. Taking over a few kingdoms is child's play.

3 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Not really relevant, but since reading the book I've been laughing my ass off at Tanavast's description of Edgli as one of the most compassionate people he'd ever met. It really speaks to Hoid's ability to annoy people that one of the most compassionate people the Vessel of Honor had ever known in his millennia of existence just flat out can't stand Hoid to such a degree that it practically oozes off of her letters to him. That's just so funny to me and I had to comment on it somewhere.

Edgli gives schoolmarm/librarian vibes. Tanner strikes one as a teacher's pet. Hoid is the class clown.

14 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Being a Herald with access to X surges doesn't exclude the possibility of becoming a Radiant of a different order. Ash's possible joining the Dustbringers has long been theorized.

I wasn't making a prediction. I was making a request.