The Stick

14 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Is that really easier than just having food and campsites? How many Forgers are you assuming the army has? Would it be better than Forgers who can make crops grow out of barren ground by Stamping the dirt with "This was a cultivated field"? The latter would be very close to how Soulcasters feed Rosharan armies.

I feel like it is more plausible that the soldiers ate or slept as opposed to a cultivated field stamp. Assuming an army is always on the move with supply trains, I would say it is not very plausible for them to have planted fields. I would argue, assuming you have enough forgers, this would be an excellent supplement to regular logistics. I am obviously not suggesting that this replaces normal logistics. However, accounts of Hannibal and many generals of history say well supplied troops do well in battle. It wouldn't be a constant state, just a last minute addition before battles.

Another thing I was considering was the use of stamps for logistics. History shows well fed and rested armies typically do well. I wonder if you could stamp the soldiers with a stamp saying they had a full meal and had a night of good sleep before a battle. 

I would say definitely the breaths. The resistance to diseases and lifespan are both great. Sure, we have modern medicine, but common ailments are still very annoying, especially if you don't go to a doctor for them. The color and music talents would both be much appreciated by me, since I am not amazing at either. I just think breaths are the most useful in practical life.

Keep in mind that TLR can easily tap his metal minds for investiture, which will probably invest him far too much to be soul cast. Another thing to consider is whether a full metal mind is capable of blocking about from Nightblood. I personally think that TLR would easily win assuming he just taps insane amounts of zinc, steel, pewter, and burns atium and chromium. In theory, he could shred lift in less than a second. I am also seeing an instance where he used huge amounts of gold and brass to turn into a miniature star and set the battlefield on fire. Of course, this is contingent on the above mentions that Rashek is an incredibly jaded and arrogant man. For example, he let Kelsier stab him just for the laughs and to show off his power to the skaa.

Maybe Mercy's involvement in the clash had something to do with the anti-light splinters? 

I have found myself summoned. 

Moash has no resistance to my arguments. 

I am a stick.

Justice for Raoden and Hrathen! 

How did Dilaf make the list, but neither of those two did?

I actually think that Dominion would be the one I would be most skillful at holding without the Intent rejecting me. Dominion is ultimately a Shard of stability. It is content with managing its own domain, and growing it. I do think my favorite grouping of Shards would be a combination of Honor, Preservation, Dominion, and either Devotion of Reason. I think this would be something like the Shard of Law, which I would like. 

Whimsy and Ambition would both be really fun, but would probably try to drop me pretty quick.

I think I would be astoundingly bad at holding Virtuosity.

There is a specific WoB which says that powers of Honor and Odium actually attract each other, which implies some shards naturally attract and repel each other. I think, as stated above, it would be almost impossible to merge Autonomy. I would say that in theory, Dominion would be very attracted to Honor, but that is not really possible, since it is in the Dor. I would say that a Valor-Harmony merge is my favorite.

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Is it worth mentioning that "oath" and "promise" are synonyms? Merriam-Webster lists promise as the first synonym of oath.

In response to this, in the real world, sure. But it seems very clear from the way Sanderson parallels them in book five, they are supposed to be two very unique things when regarded in the Stormlight sense.

Something else to note in this case is the deleted interlude The Traveler when Hoid and Frost meet on Yolen immediately post Hero of Ages. The two of them have a big fight, and it ends with Frost telling Hoid he cannot restore the lost to what they once were, and cannot bring back the dead. In addition, Frost asks why Hoid now sees the power he once denied. 

It is from this, I do not think Hoid wants to pick up Adonalsium. Rather, I think he want to go to the aforementioned place of the dead, pick up Adonalsium's soul or whatever, then reforge it back to how things were before the Shattering.

Just keep in mind this is all from a deleted scene that is not canon.

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I could see Honor partially-saving Dalinar like how it partially-saved Tanavast into the Stormfather. That'd also help explain perhaps why Retri could grab the Blackthorn.

But I'm pretty sure he's dead. Retri could have forced Dalinar to become his servant, but he was so distracted he didn't even notice Dalinar dying and slipping away.

I do find this a little unreasonable, because Dalinar is the focus of the whole contest, and I believe Taravangian would have total attention on him. However, I do see your distraction theory working if this was like getting a lot of Breaths. The sudden overload of power probably sent Taravangian into a total ecstasy power-high.

I do ultimately hope Dalinar went to the beyond. I feel like the book was trying to make it clear he really did die. If he comes back, I think it would ruin the impact of his corpse on the tower. I do think that a spiritual version of Dalinar like Nohadon would be fine though. However, of the characters who may have claimed him, my money would be on Valor or Cultivation. Cultivation is playing 5d chess, and was connected enough to him to claim him. Valor probably has stuff going on in Roshar, and Dalinar did really exemplify Valor is protecting Gavinor.

I must agree with some of the excellent points proposed above. The radiant oaths of all the orders are very different. They do sometimes contradict. They all have different interpretations of what is right. The issue is, there is no absolute moral standard in the Cosmere. This does mean the whole point of Honor, the whole point of oaths is to live by a set of codes that best approximate what is right, what is moral. I suppose the reason I like the Skybreaker interpretation is that would require several people at least to agree on a moral or immoral thing, rather than sole radiants being able to go totally rogue inside their orders. 

I do want it to be understood I notice the nuance in the books and I do like a lot of it. I do know the series shows the issues with the nature of some of the oaths. I think this opens some fascinating philosophical debates or the nature of morality and Honor itself. And yes, I certainly agree that oaths do not intrinsically make an action moral, as pointed out by the citation from Knuti. My point is that the characters in the books do not seem to have an absolute moral order. Thus, if you swear good, noble oaths, it guides you towards the most righteous choice. I concede many oaths can be evil. I simply would claim though that keeping oaths is innately honorable and binds you to higher moral ideals. An oath should be made for the right reason, or never made at all. 

I do tend to agree with Aliroz on this perspective of the book. My real issue with it was not necessarily any of the Szeth stuff discussed at length, although I would still tend to side with Aliroz. Rather, my issue is with this book's definitions of oaths and Honor. To be clear, I liked the book, but I did not like the portrayal of oaths. Throughout the entire series, oaths are built up as honorable and noble. The entire point of the radiant orders is to live by oaths. They are of monolithic importance to the series. Yet, this book, it feels like there was a 180 and suddenly oaths were being undercut totally. I think we most clearly see this with Adolin and his promise worldview, which I dislike. The whole point of an oath is that you keep it to your dying breath. It is not easy, it will hurt, you may regret it, but you keep it regardless, holding yourself to a code of iron. Oaths are not meant to be easy. Who better exemplifies this than Taln. Yet, Adolin's whole promise thing is too weak, too loose. What binds you to a promise. What keeps you following it unto death of dishonor. Breaking a promise when it gets hard is a pointless promise.

Sigzil: I think, ultimately in the circumstances, this one has the best chance at a pass. Sigzil did not reject the oaths themselves, but rejected them only to save his spren. I think that this can be understood as mostly acceptable.

Fen: I very much have two minds on Fen. I do believe that from a strategic perspective, surrender to Odium was her best choice. It helped her people a most. Yet, she betrayed her allies. She was a traitor, a backstabber, she ruined their trust, she did break. There is no Honor in what she did, no nobility. There is a reason Dante puts traitors in the 9th circle. 

The negative portrayal of skybreakers: 

I echo the question above, of why can the skybreakers never be right, and wind runners never wrong. Besides Nale manipulating the law by bullying rulers into making new laws to let him have his way, the current Skybreaker oaths are fine. They abide to an exacting code of honor and oaths, and do not bend. They do not tolerate failure, they obey oaths perfectly. The issue with Windrunners if that they are too flexible. Many of the worst people in history could have been wind runners if they interpreted their evil deeds as protecting people. Heck, even Taravangian could be a Windrunner in theory. Skybreakers cannot bend so easily. 

FYI: I am a Skybreaker on the radiant quiz.

The whole mess with Honor being portrayed semi-negatively: This book seems to really put nuance on Honor, and portray him semi-negatively. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I fully support Tanavast having Mishram captured to fulfill his oath to Odium. Mishram never could have feasibly ended the war anyway unless she usurped Odium, which I kind of doubt would have happened. I think Tanavast made the best choice. Then, there is the whole thing with Dalinar, being the pinnacle of Honor and oaths the whole series, walking away from it at the end, and not liking oaths anymore, which I feel kind of betrays his arc. Plus, Honor being portrayed kind of badly, then Dalinar's hope of it becoming more like Adolin's perception seems like it would lose what Honor truly is, which is holding to a code of steel simply because of the oath itself. 

If anyone has any good counter-arguments to my points, I would enjoy engaging with them.

I seen to recall something about Kalak making the weapon. I really doubt it is a Dawnshard because Roshar doesn't need that many Dawnshards. Plus, where did it go afterward.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kind of.

Rhythms and Tones of Roshar. Singers and Fused can hear them, there is a slight change in Tones when a new Vessel Ascends, there would be a massive change in Rhythms when two Shards combine. Hearing Rhythms allows one to understand their meaning. Humans are not only capable of learning to hear Rhythms (Navani), it was also shown by the imprisonment of Mishram that drastic changes of Rhythms can be heard by everybody - Dalinar and Navani felt Rhythms stopping for 3 seconds when Mishram was captured. I believe that's how everybody knows Retribution's name - he literally broadcasted it across the whole Cosmere, but he didn't do it intentionally, it was just a result of merging two Shards together that was unavoidable. RoW ch 76:

I am looking at it kind of like what happens when two small black holes merge. They spin around each other hundreds of times per second, and warp spacetime in crazy ways. They send out ginormous ripples all through the universe, like waves in spacetime. Then, once they merge things start to quiet down. I kind of view Retribution like this. The incredible power and changes in Rhythm from the merge would ripple across the Cosmere in a ginormous wave.

9 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

My guess would be that Lift's story will involve going on a journey to Rall Elorim. Birthplace and where Lift's mom can most likely be found for lots of juicy character drama, has that cryptic "City of Shadows" moniker applied to it, and would provide an opportunity to explore what's happened to Iri now that so many of the Iriali have beat feet.

I think that this is probably right. My main reason is that RoW was originally planned in Rall Elorim, until he realized Urithiru was better. This means he probably still has a ton of Rall Elorim world building already ready.

On 12/30/2024 at 9:54 PM, Aither of Olumpia said:

I love it! But it does seem clear from the text that the Shattered Plains shattered in Honor and Odiums clash - otherwise there would've been no city built there to be destroyed. And Vessels and Hoid all seem to refer to the Shattering of Adonalsium as killing him, which seems like a bit much of a misdirect if we learn Adonal is still alive

My only point in this is that there was kind of the whole fakeout that Honor was splintered, and we find out later the characters just misunderstood or will I'll informed. I would say there is a chance Hoid and the Vessels just don't understand exactly what they did.

Now we have a fun question that doesn't matter at all. What is the number of Retribution? I believe we don't know Harmony's number, so we don't know how duel Shard numbers work. It could be 19, because the powers are added, so could the numbers. Maybe it is 9.5? 

Any thoughts?

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

1. Why would you believe this, much less think it is "obvious?"
   • Radiants are shown in this book to have full use of Towerlight (Lifelight + Stormlight) - except that it escapes quicker and cannot be held as well because they only have Connection to one half. Warlight is the same (Stormlight + Voidlight) and is likely to behave the same way, as soon as they learn how to access it (prayer) or find a source. She may be the primary solo-Radiant in the short term, but that is unlikely to last over 10 years and into book 6. 
   • Mr.T can't just "deny" light's function - it's part of the Realmatics based on Planet+Shardic Intents (just as Sazed could not just "turn off" hemalurgy) - though if he realizes it, he may make it difficult to find. . . 
2. Nope - See WoB Below. He is likely to teach her fighting, mechanics, movement and help her learn her own powers. 
3. Meh - no comment.
4. Not likely. Cultivation exists in the Spiritual Realm, which has neither time nor place - so it will not matter where she is, access to her investiture remains as long as you have the Connection to access it. 
   • Additionally, it's implied that Boons and Curses (at least Nightwatcher's versions) are actually changes to the Spiritweb - requiring no additional investiture to maintain (except when Cultivation deliberately changes that - like Dalinar's memories)
5. Meh - no comment.

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

1: Towerlight really does not travel well outside the tower. I meant that she is likely the sole radiant with powers outside the Tower. Plus, to get Voidlight, you sang the Song of Prayer and Odium directly gave it to you. The Everstorm does not give it. I assume you just ask Mr T for some retributionlight, and he infuses some gemstones.

4: Fair point if it is a Spirit web change.  

1 minute ago, Nitpicking said:

Why? Cosmere magics work on planets quite far from their Shards. Again, the Sibling (whose Towerlight is half Lifelight) is still apparently strong enough to resist Retribution. And the Nightwatcher is still there, as far as we know.

I think the whole point is that Cultivation completely abandoned the system, because Retribution could totally kill her at that point. I don't think she would risk poking her nose back into the system without some other Shards supporting her. Plus, that would Invest her further into Roshar, and she definitely does not want to be stuck there again.

12 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Dalinar shoved the Stormfather out of the way to accept Kaladin's Fourth Ideal. The Nightwatcher still exists, as does the Sibling. Some Radiants (e. g. Venli) seem to get accepted by Cultivation herself, though.

The only issue is that Cultivation abandoned the system, so that definitely is not happening back half.

This thread is for the advancement of theories on what the events of book five will mean for lift going forwards to start of the second arc.

Obviously, her use of Lifelight makes her the singular radiant* who can function during the True Desolation. This is assuming Retribution won't let enlightened surgebinders use his light. This will allow her to use powers outside the towers to fight Retribution's forces.

I think Vasher will train her on elements of awakening using Lifelight, kind of hotwiring the two systems together if he can. I also expect her to acquire some powers from her Aviar. Plus, Vasher may use some awakening tricks to make her new weapons like Night blood or Lifeless style golems. However, I think Vasher drops back into a supporting role by the end of the time jump.

She presumably will try to counsel Gav during the time jump, and he may end up accompanying her on her arc in book six.

Now Cultivation has abandoned the system, I think any control over the boons and curses will start to disintegrate. This will mean Lift could start to physically develop naturally, and she may lose some of her Cultivation based powers. 

At the points of the second arc, she will be about 25. If she has a romance arc, I would say Yanagawn is the big candidate, especially with all that character development this book. The only issue with that is that the Oathgates have broken down, so Azir and Urithiru are not connected.

These are all the things I can think of surrounding Lift, I would encourage theorizing below.

I don't this this can be right. Vasher says he will take 40 years to outlive her torture. This would imply that she does not have immortality and will die in time.