grinachu

Thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just being obtuse. You are saying Nohadon lived long before the Last Desolation, that he was a King and lived through the Desolation in his lifetime. Ok. So where are the Heralds during this Desolation, why was the destruction so spectacular (9 out of 10 die) and why does he talk about the absence of the Heralds as if they have been missing for a long time? I just find either explanation somewhat lacking....

I guess the two different answers I have gotten exemplify my confusion. if Nohadon lived long before the last Desolation, as you suggest, why does he mention the return of the Heralds in the aftermath of a Desolation? The Heralds should have shown up together with the Desolation. The tech level in the Nohadon's vision is also higher/more than that seen in the Prelude (i.e. rags vs three story tower). Moreover I had assumed that the Prelude bookended the furthest back in time the story was going to go, at least in terms of on-screen presence. That however is an assumption not an argument. If Nohadon lived after the last Desolation how did we see the aftermath of a Desolation in the first place? I thought Taln suffering in Damnation prevented any Desolations taking place.

Has anyone come up with a best possible timeline for events like the Last Desolation and The Recreance and Dalinar's visions? One thing that I never understood was that we are led to believe that Taln's imprisonment won the world 4500 years of peace but in fact Dalinar's vision of Nohadon in WOK showed the aftermath of a Desolation. How are both possible?

Helaran joined the Skybreakers not the Ghostbloods. The Envisagers wanted to return the Radiants whereas the Sons of Honor wanted to restore the supremacy of the Vorin Church and return the Heralds. If Gavilar was one of the Sons of Honor why did he think Restares migr be behind his attempted assassination? Why did Gavilar share his visions with Taravingian and not Dalinar? Darkness is Nalan.

I think Ishar/Ishi is the one with all the ideas - he came up with the idea of Oaths for all the Orders and he came up with the idea of abandoning the Oathpact. I would therefore expect him to continue to be a major player still...

On twitter someone tweeted Peter if the first word was "Hold" and Peter confirmed it was. So does that help?

I like your amendments, on the whole. 2. Actually they seem opposed to Amaram and his mission, not necessarily all the Sons of Honor. It seems surprising that all these societies haven't taken each other out as of yet or haven't destroyed each other.

I was surprised by it, plot wise. For Adolin, it was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. I agree with those who have said that Jasnah would have done it, and without compunction. In fact if Jasnah had reached the Shattered Plains Szeth would be looking for a new head, Sadeas would have been turned into diamond, the Parshendi would have allied with the Alethi, and Elhokar would have been slapped into good sense

Please enlighten us

I thought Shallan was in that order as well, but do we have confirmation? Taln calls Shallan's one of Ishi's knights.

I think the agenda is not her scholars but in her sister. I think she has bonded with an Unmade spren or been influenced by Odium.

All praise to Taln he man are true hero. I really hope that him get better the dude deserve some kind of happiness after what he did for mankind. I think that Jezrien was affected by Odium or by one of the Unmade in his decision to end the Oathpact and abandon Taln. I also think this decision was such a violation of his divine duties that he basically lost his ability to function. "“Better that one man should suffer than ten,” Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind" (Way of Kings prelude)

1. the Sons of Honour, Restares, Amaram, Gavilar were known members. Sought to restore the Voidbringers in order to bring back the Heralds. 2. The Ghostbloods - agenda is unknown. Mraize, Thaidakker, and Veil are known members. 3. Skybreakers, led by Nalan'Elin, - agenda is to prevent the rise of the Knights Radiant in the hope of forestalling a new Desolation. Also warring against stone shamanate of Shinovar. 4. Envisagers - agenda is to restore the Knights Radiant by placing themselves in positions of physical peril. May all be dead. 5. Taravingian & the Diagrammists. Agenda to protect humanity from the coming storm. Willing to do anything necessary to do so. 6. Stone Shamanate. Made Szeth "truthless" for unclear motives. Protecting the Honorblades (presumably for 4500 years) but have shown no desire to assume responsibility for humanity. Opposed to the return of the Knights' Radiant. 7.17th Shard. Looking for Hoid/Wit. Agenda: to stop his interference in Roshar/ Rosharian system. Presumably sent by the "old Reptile"/Dragon on Yolen. 8. Wit: - Agenda: to return the Knights Radiant and destroy Odium. May be willing to destroy humanity/Alethkar on Roshar to do so. 9. Zahel.- Agenda- not clear.

There was an ambiguous, enigmatic reference in Words of Radiance to a powerful spren of stone in Shinovar that had kept the Desolations from returning for 4,500 years. I wanted to write up a theory, but I can't find the epigram or reference in WOR. Anyone remember a page number?

Do we have any definitive info if Cultivation is on Roshar or is she on one of the other planets in the Solar System? My view is that Rayse doesn't want to attack her directly because he wants the power of her shard. Cultivation and Hatred aren't as incompatible as Honor and Hatred.

Great post. Can you identify a motive for their so doing? I had long suspected that Jezrien is under Odium's or one of the Unmade's influence in the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive.

That Herald could be Kalak, fwiw. Kalak has been a POV character before, and knowing how well plotted out Brandon's books are, Kalak may come back. Ishi is consistently provided with the scholar/ guiding attributes which is why I think he would be a bad fit for the mysterious Herald in conversation with Nalan who is seeking re-assurance. I think the post in the other thread about the Heralds doing the opposite of their Heraldic powers is insightful. I think we can actually say the more the Heralds betray their divine duties, the worse their condition gets. Because Jezrien was responsible for the abandonment and the lie about the Final Desolation, he is the worst off. This is why Nalan doesn't kill Lift after she is pardoned- he will suffer a backlash.

I would have assumed a Herald would be more familiar with Knight Radiant abilities, maybe even able to spot Pattern and Shallan's nature as a Lightweaver than the masked woman was. The female Heralds, Shallash apart, have been kind of MIA. It's interesting that the depiction of Nalan in Way of Kings is so different from the actual Herald. That does lead me to doubt whether Shallash's motive in seeking to destroy all the paintings that feature her is actually anonymity. (http://brandonsanderson.com/images/wok/tWoK_EPHEMERA-4_RELIEF-webres.jpg) Why is Jezrien known as the Stormfather when the Stormfather is actually the spren of the Almighty?

He can only have died after the last of Dalinar's visions, since by his own account he wasn't much good at forecasting the future. That places his death at the Recreance at the earliest.

There is another thread that sought to identify the hidden Heralds in WOR, but I thought we needed a new thread to discuss the Heralds more generally with the information we have from the book itself. Ever since the prelude of the Way of Kings I've been fascinated by the fact that these quasi-divine immortal men and women are running around Roshar, having abandoned their swords and presumably their powers. I've wondered at their character arcs, their motives, their locations, and whether they are still acting in concert or opposing each other. I've wondered at their representation in Vorinism and the incongruity of Rosharians attributing divine attributes and essences, even picking up the paths of the orders of Knight Radiant from the Heralds who headed each order. Here's my theory. Now that the Knights Radiant are being refounded, and the Desolations have come, we will see at least one Herald pick up their Honorblade and return to the protection of mankind.

Indeed. Szeth briefly entertains the possibility it might be Jezrien. Interestingly there is another of the Heralds (in addition to Nalan) present at the feast. We know from Jasnah's POV, that they are talking about Ash ("Shallash") getting worse, and how they are not supposed to get worse. It is a male voice and the description doesn't match the portraits of Ishi so I have to assume it's Kalak. So our knowledge of the heralds is as follows.... 1. Jezrien- was last seen as a drunkard/madman in Alethkar for the feast. 2. Nalan - leading the Skybreakers, seeking to prevent the Desolation from returning (although he failed in this), encouraging Szeth to destroy the Stone Shamanate for reasons we cannot infer yet. 3. Kalak - last seen in Alethkar in the company of Nalan, presumed allied or friendly with Nalan. 4. Talenel- In company of Amaram, off to hunt Honorblades. Tortured into insanity. 5. Shallash- destroying all visual representations of herself.

It's not precisely a typo but p.694 of the Lift Interlude contains this sentence - "Fortunately, she'd guessed right, unfortunately".

So say I'm wrong: it's not Cultivation. Who else could it be? My backup theory is that she was the person responsible for turning the Parshendi/Voidbringers into Parshmen. In a way she would be a parallel to Nohadon as a Non-Herald Radiant figure of importance.

So this is my first Topic, so be gentle please. I found this very telling passage in Words of Radiance "The sun hadn't quite set, but in the darkening sky, stars had begun to appear around Talns Scar. The Tear hung just above the horizon, a star much brighter than the others, named for the single tear Reya was said to have shed." (Kindle Edition, pg. 362 of 1080) Since we know the names of all the Heralds, I can only surmise Reya is Cultivation's real name and that the tear she shed was when Tanavast died. Thoughts?

Does this allow us to date when Honor died? He must have died millennia ago as well. If so, why the visions now?