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Butte ate the fried penguin leg.

Welcome to the Shard! There's nothing you need to do here but all contribution is welcome. What's your favorite Cosmere book?

I think the reason they are so evenly matched now is because of the coordination and technology. Humankind had, at the best, a few hundred years between Desolations but this time they had millennia. They discovered all sorts of fabrials, created much better weapons and armor and invented new battle strategies. In the previous Desolations, they barely had any armor at all and methods of forging were almost nonexistent. And back then, the Unmade were loose. And there are no Heralds this time and the tactics and problems that the enemy faces are different. They have a whole host of untrained singers who've spent years in slaveform and a lot of their Fused are going insane.

Just now, Frustration said:

They used it to block Nightblood.

Look I'm with @Bejardin1250 here no one is going to change thier position we aren't getting anything done.

I agree. This was originally a topic on Navani, though. Its amusing to see how far it's strayed.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Even if they do, which I find unlikely then they won't outnumber the Radiants for long, mobbing is an increadibly costly tactic in this situation

But Nightblood is stronger and that's all that matters for the sake of this argument

RoW page 572

Doesn't seem like he didn't know he was obviously well aware or he wouldn't be scarred of it.

 

Becasue it can be used to parry.

I haven't seen anything confirming this.

We saw his mind, he wasn't even thinking about Nightblood.

How are you going to surprise him with a thousand troops?

Leaving the sword in Radiant hands is an incredibly costly decesion.

It doesn't matter how strong Nightblood is if the wielder isn't strong enough! Its not some sort of super-weapon that always ensures victory. Szeth almost died in OB when they took the sheath. Its just not probable that by permanently killing a few Fused a day, they would win the war. The enemy would catch up soon and throw everything they have at him. And Odium's air forces outnumber the Windrunners. And there's a thousand other littler problems since if there was an alternate, better way to win the war, BS would put in some variables that would make it impossible. 

There's probably a lot of ralkalest, and probably in more convenient shapes, and I don't even remember them trying to parry with it.

Renarin was near Szeth and so Odium couldn't see the sword.

They have a lot of ralkalest, and probably in more convenient shapes. I don't remember Fused who went after him even trying to block, he was specifically focused on the sheath.

Raboniel, Leshwi. Maybe some are dense but a lot of Fused are smart. All it takes is one Fused to figure it out, and, anyway, its obvious so they wouldn't even need anyone particularly smart.

We saw in his mind for, maybe, 5 minutes. Tell me why he wouldn't focus on the weapon that killed his predecessor. 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Even Nightbloods Sheath doesn't do that, and it's aluminum specifically designed to keep him contained.

3rd Oath Kal beat Szeth. If he falls someone else can take it, he's not going to be complelty mobbed by others Heavenly ones fight 1 v 1 and Skybreakers follow their rules.

If you can't even fathom what it is why should I take it as a counter argument?

They aren't that bright, to them it's just Rakalest why would they care?

You mean one of the fused Szeth killed for good? how are they supposed to learn form that?

They could probably pass it around or find some unfortunate singer who is good and lash him or her to the air via Heavenly One.

My point is that if someone killed Szeth, his attacker is likely right next to him.

I don't know what it is but we all know its there. 

It would keep them from being destroyed, of course they would care. Some Fused are very bright, plus, don't forget, Todium now leads them and he knows about the sword.

They didn't kill him since Lift was there to help. One of them stole the sheath.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He wasn't killed instantly, but what did he do? Nothing, he couldn't, not being able to see it coming doen't mean he can do anything about it once the attack happens.

Then how did they die?

Once he starts your fine.

High ranking Fused and only HIgh ranking Fused that's my point, your making the same argument that I am why are you bringing it up like I don't know?

Szeth isn't just going to walk out alone into enemy held teritory trying to get Coffee.

Rayse was terrified of Nightblood why wouldn't he do something.

He didn't seem that intrested in doing that.

Nightblood was sucking his soul, what do you expect him to do?

They didnt die, Szeth surprised him by cutting the Connections.

Judging by OB, I'm pretty sure it gets worse the further it goes. And its beside the point sine it'll probably be a Fused who grabs it.

Rayse couldnt see Nightblood very well because of Renarin.

He will be interested now since he knows from personal experience that the sword can kill a Vessel.

Also, sorry for the double post but I still haven't figured out how to add quotes while editing my previous posts.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If he couldn't defend against it, and he wasn't instantly killed mind you how are Heralds going to be untouched? If it nicks them they die, if it hit's their blade it will begin to break it, this is something they have not dealt with before, and Nightblood has other properties, even mostly sheathed Szeth broke a man's back with it in a single hit.

Easy fix

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

Warbreaker Annotations (June 22, 2011)

 

It takes seconds not minuets for Nightblood to Force Suicide.

Where? The only ones we see with it are Leshwi, Raboniel, and El, Some of the most important Fused we know of.

Like what?

If they touched the blade after any substancial period of Time out of the Sheath forget the Suicide effect it will consume their souls, they don't hold enough Voidlight to sate it.

And how would using the sheath to block it let them know that turns it off? For all they know it's just ordinary Aluminum.

But he knew about Nightblood, and for a year couldn't do anything about it.

The heralds would be surprised at first and if he strikes quickly, he has a chance at succeeding. But once they see what it can do, they can just evade the blade and stab him. Nightblood gives a strong advantage, but no matter how good Szeth is, its unlikely he can beat a Herald.

It'll be time consuming for a Radiant to survive that and if Szeth does fall, he's likely surrounded. A Fused can just take it or use a pair of aluminum tongs and flee back to Kholinar or somewhere equally inpenetrable.

Encasing it with aluminum would interfere.

Even if only a few Fused have it, a couple of those combined with some heavy Skybreaker support could take Szeth down with some time. Faster, if a Herald is there. Szeth isn't the best fighter in the Radiants by far, and even with Nightblood as an equalizer and Windrunners alongside him, he will eventually fall.

How would I know? BS definitely has some master plan that will blow my mind and I doubt I can figure it out.

They aren't stupid enough to leave the sheath behind.

Back in the Battle of the Thaylen Field, a Fused stole the sheath so the sword started consuming Szeth. So they probably know.

I think he means there as in in the vision. If not, then Renarin was in the tower near Szeth and, anyway, they couldn't exactly break in.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No it really isn't.

Taravangian is more dangerous for a number of reasons but wiht a Shards boosted mind intelect isn't one of them.

And on top of that Brandon said the reason he switched them is because Rayse kept failing.

How come the Fused always have the number advantage? They would be stupid to not give him backup. And even if a Fused got it they would more than likely kill themselves with it.

Shards are far more powerful than they are but Rayse isn't doing so hot.

Yes, it is.

Whatever the reasons are, he's going to do better than Rayse and he can come up with a better plan.

Fused have the number advantage since the Skybreakers aligned with them, and it says so as early as the preview chapters that they are more Heavenly Ones than there are Windrunners. They probably already know they need the sheath considering how they stole it in OB. They'd have to get it back from Szeth's corpse but then they can tuck it away safely and they wouldn't even need to use it.

Again, unknown advantage. Rayse didn't know that Nightblood was there and was taken by susprise.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

No it really doesn't

Seeing one possibility Rayse didn't doesn't make him smarter

We saw them in OB.

When he eventually dies someone else can use NIghtblood.

Repeated hits would break the blade, and a sinlge nick would kill him.

Read back to the early chapters in Rhythm of War. Its implicated there that all the Heavenly Ones have it.

It was implied in the book tha he's smarter. BS wouldn't have made him a Vessel in the twist if he didn't pose a much greater threat to Team Radiant than Rayse ever did.

I'll look for it when I reread OB

When he dies, a Fused probably kills him and he's surrounded so one of them will get it.

Heralds are simply too good to be beaten unless you have an unknown advantage. Ishar was caught off gaurd with Szeth but its unlike that's going to happen again.

Edit: Thanks for the passage by the way, @mdross81

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No they don't.

How is Taravangian automatically smarter? If we go off when he acsended he would be dumber, if we go off average intelegence they would be about the same the only time Taravangian is smarter is due to Cultivation, and that likely does not stak with the mental boost he recieves as a vessel.

Windrunners get the most squires, and have historically been the largest Order, We saw the size of the Skybreakers and their numbers were unimpressive.

The fact remains that he could break it, and again fused would not last long against NIghtblood

He specifically asked if a Bondsmith had been sworn.

Says who? Ishar isn't massivly faster than Szeth is, and he would have to be to pull that off.

Szeth was also not a Radiant, and Nightblood just needs to nick his oponent, while he can survive most anything.

If Nale could do that why didn't he?

The book talks of it as if most of them has it.

I don't know why Taranvangian is smarter or if Cultivation's boon lasts if he Ascends but the fact remains that he is smarter.

Could you tell me when we saw it? The books are huge so my knowledge of the details are sketchy. And they've been largest historically. The Skybreakers never betrayed their oaths in the first place and it does not seem as if the highspren has issues the honorspren do, though they are coming around. It would have a larger number of willing spren as well as centuries of practice in the training new Radiants.

No matter how powerful he is, he's one person. Unless he has a reserve of Feruchemical speed, he can't keep himself covered at all sides and sheer numbers would eventually overwhelm him.

Ishar is faster and has centuries of practice. Szeth is skilled but I doubt even Kaladin could face a Herald. Unless Szeth can surprise him, there's little chance of beating him. When they faced each other Ishar was confused since Nightblood chipped his blade. But a chip isn't a break or a crack and wouldn't be enough to stop him. These are highly optimistic and best-case scenarios, and unlikely to happen.

Nale wasn't really interested in killing anyone, he just went to talk to Dalinar.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If it drains Stomrlight it's Raysium.

In refrencing the ones Rayse MIssed it only says one.

If you don't think it's immportant why are you so upset Navani doesn't get credit for Anti-light?

I'll answer that, less than the Windrunners

Given that he can break Honorblades given enough hits, I don't think that's a problem.

That's what caused Ishar's Lucidicty

Nightblood chipping his Honorblade

If its Raysium then its pretty common. All of the Heavenly Ones carry them.

Taravangian is still smarter. My point is just because Rayse couldn;'t figure something out doesn't mean Taravangian can't either.

Its mentioned a lot in this thread, read back. And I dont think her getting credit is unimportant, everyone keeps bringing up the Anti-Light thing. To be honest, I'm getting confused- I only mentioned it because someone was saying she shouldn't get much credit for her Anti-Light work since she didn't discover it first.

But how do you know that its less than Windrunners?

He chipped it, he didn't break it. Though maybe that would give him an edge. But even if there wasn't Nale, there'd still be a lot of other Fused. And Nightblood is both very dangerous and very unpredictable.

I thought Ishar's lucidity happened when Oaths were said near him.

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Raysium ones that are so excpencive that Raboniel considered searching a room for a few splinters of?

And that's another thing Radiants lack access to Raysium.

One possibility, one.

Winning a Marathon is bragging rights, winning anything is bragging rights, discovering somehting first is bragging rights, and Navani does not get those rights.

And how many skybreakers?

He's killed a Vessel of a Shard of Adonalsium!

Why would he not be able to kill Heralds?

Szeth attacked Ishar before Navani swore her Ideal.

Dalinar walked over and placed his hand on Nale.

Not the Raysium ones, the ones given to the Heavenly ones.

It said possibilities, multiple.

Why do bragging rights matter?! She never actually bragged about it, anyway.

How would I know how many Skybreakers there are?

Maybe Nightblood can kill Nale but Szeth is still unlikely to score a hit.

What does Navani's Ideal have to do with this? Also, in that scene, no one even scratched Ishar, Ishar fled because of something.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And how effective are normal weapons against a Radiant?

It's Nightblood doing the judging

He wasn't smarter when he acsended

Becasue you did it first, It's bragging right's really.

Lightweavers can use their powers, and they can look like Regals.

There are hundreds of Windrunners right now, and hundreds more squires.

And Nightblood has proven effective against Heralds

Yes, Nightblood destroyes on all three realms, he has killed Fused before.

And Szeth fought of Ishar, and even Dalinar handed a hit.

Those Stormlight sucking ones are pretty useful.

He was smarter. It says so, he saw possibilities even Rayse hadn't.

If its bragging right then it doesn't really count for anything. It doesn't prove he's more deserving than who did it later.

How far do you think they'll go? Did you miss all the other things? I wish I could list all the problems for you but that list would be endless. Its a thousand to one odds they'll make it even halfway through the city.

There are three hundred Windrunners, counting squires.

When has Nightblood last killed a Herald. 

Szeth severed the Connection and Ishar was stunned. Then Dalinar opened a perpendiculartity and that gave him a few moments of lucidity. Or maybe not in that order, it's been a while. Either way, Szeth isn't a match for a herald and Nale is probably even more skilled than Ishar since he spent the whole Era of Solitude fighting. When did Dalinar land a hit?

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How? if it touches them they're dead, and Aluminum is too exspencive to give them.

Anyone that Nightblood judges as good can use him and will then become immune to the nausea.

Rayse obviously couldn't

No, it gives you credit because you did it.

Kholinar still has a large human population and unlike Urithiru there isn't a way for the fused to turn off Lightweavers.

And there are more Windrunners than Skybreakers

Nightblood would perma-kill Nale

They can just stab Szeth in the back. Or shoot an arrow. He's not of the 4th Ideal, the can't avoid openings.

How many people in their right minds would judge Nightblood as good?

The whole point is Taravangian is smarter than Rayse which is why he makes such a good Vessel

Why does doing it give you credit?

There are definitely insane security measures in that city since its their base. A lot of Fused work there full time, its probably filled with regals and they cant use their powers unless they are attacking because of the secretspren. Thunderclasts and Unmade definitely live there and its unlikely that they dont count the humans. And a hundred more little ways to keep intruders out. Last time, there was still a human resistance there and very little Fused. And they cant even use spanreeds without drawing attention. A retrieval mission there would be extremely unlikely to occur or succeed. 

Aren't the highspren willing and the honorspren are just coming around. They haven't even reached Urithiru yet and it'll take time to train. Plus, there's always Nale who is close to unbeatable on the battlefield

Nale is a CS, so its not certain how that might play out. Has a CS ever been scratched by Nightblood before? And that's assuming Szeth can even land a hit. I know it says that he didn't use Nightblood the last time he faced him but Nale is a Herald and definitely better than Szeth.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So what does she get credit for exactly?

Being smart? We already know that

Its nothing. People are just saying that figuring it out isn't a point in her favor since someone else already discovered it.

She doesn't get credit with the discovery, I'm just saying she should get as much credit as the person who made the discovery since she figured it out too.

Just now, Frustration said:

She didn't do it first and thus did not discover it.

It would not be really easy to capture, and getting into Kholinar was not difficult the last time.

And even if they could get it the Fused might try to kill themselves.

And Szeth is not alone, why do Fused get the number advantage, there are hundreds of Windrunners, and Heavenly ones fight 1 v 1. most of the time.

Discovering something only gives you credit because it proves that you're smart! She is as smart as who discovered it so she should get the same amount of credit. Last time, Kholinar wasn't in total Fused control. And if the Skybreakers come as well, they would at least equal the Windrunners leaving the Heavenly one's free. Or maybe the Skybrakers would attack instead while Windrunners and Heavenly One battle. And that's not counting Nale who is unlikely to even get scratched, and he's a Herald so who knows what the sword would do to him anyway.

9 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

And of course it is problematic if she thinks about being free to do scholarship. The tower is under enemy occupation, she has no idea of the welfare of the people within the tower, what she does is collude with the enemy, 

She didn't collude with the enemy! Someone made a post on this above, she tried to hide it but she failed. She wasn't allowed to twlk to her scholars and her one connection with the outside world- the veins of garnet- were being monitored.

7 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I did know that when I wrote it but it doesn’t matter one bit to the actual facts because we know who invented Anti-Light. 

and we’re all that matters 

She did not need the sphere for this. She could have found the Tone and stoped. There was no reason to give Raboniel the means to destroy their greatest strength.

 

They would lose the war in the long run. Like it said, the singer troops were getting more and more experience and the Fused were increasing. Humankind could gain advantages through technology and make progress with the spren, but there are only so many True spren in Shadesmar and Fused regenerate every time you kill them. There is no Oathpact to bind them anymore and Team Radiant would lose eventually. They have to make actual casualties while they are still somewhat evenly matched. I won't say Anti-Stormlight wasn't a huge blow, but a tiny spren is harder to stab then a Fused.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

She still was not the first one, it doesn't matter if the person who did it first cares or not, they did it.

Nightblood exists, and was exclusivly in Radiant hands.

It doesn't matter but it should. Even in our world, we don't care if two equally intelligent people make the same invention, we care who did it first. Doing it later doesn't make her any less creative or smart than who did it first, so she should get the credit.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I’ve only got one question for you. Why did Navani have to make it when Raboniel was right there. She could have waited until she was liberated until she did

And if you tell me that she did because she didn’t know if she would be freed then she shouldn’t make it at all.

Wait for who to liberate her? You talk as if it was inevitable, but Dalinar never could have pulled of a rescue mission for the tower and Kaladin is just one Radiant, even if he's Kaladin. The whole reason she was liberated was because of her research into Anti-Light and tones, and she delivered Anti-Voidlight too, so both sides now have a near equal chance of finishing the other off. But she restored the tower and got it working again and losing the tower made Odium more desperate.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Leave the fused without one either, and any lock can be picked.

They'd probably lock it in Kholinar or somewhere equally inpenetrable. It would be really easy to lose and really hard to get back. And putting it in the sheath again and again would be hampering. Plus, what if all the Heavenly Ones swarm him at once? He'd have to keep it open for a long time and either it would consume him or they would capture him.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not Obvious!

*Deep breath*

Navani has spent her entire life and still does hold to a religion that says Fused are demons, it couldn't get more obvious!

An incredibly lame way to be extraordinary.

It would be weird if it didn't work on Regals.

And he didn't have shards during WoK, and after swearing fourth his Stormlight seems to work normally.

And tight corridors helps the smaller force.

What's not obvious?

And all Fused aren't demons. Raboniel was twisted and evil in a way but she helped Navani in the end even if she created Anti-Stormlight. And Leshwi did a lot of good, as did the four other Heavenly Ones that left the tower with her. Plus, Fused have centuries of experience in manipulation and Navani could either take a risk and get close to Raboniel and her work or she could just back down and let them have the tower. Even the Sibling was fooled by Raboniel. Also, it wouldn't exactly be that strange if the Regals weren't suppressed since they have very little Voidlight and no Surges.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It makes sense if you read the discussion around it.

No larger than Navani finding Anti-light something that even after aparently thousands of years of trying Raboniel still hadn't figured out.

The suppressior had not been fixed yet otherwise all the regals would have dropped. And yes he can drop an entire army, he held back thousands in WoK without any shards.

Did all she could?

If handing Raboniel her notebook was all she could do to keep them from learing about it I'm disapointed.

Dalinar showed control before becoming a Bondsmith.

And again I did not know how broken Bondsmith powers are at that time

She spent the entire book outright ignoring redflags to go along with her enemy all so she could live her dream job.

The fact that Navani managed to discover it when an immortal hadn't is precisely why she's so extraordinary.

In WoK, he wasn't fighting an army of Fused and Regals in tight stone corridors. And dont suppressors only effect Fused? I dont remember it saying in the book that it effects Regals as well.

She did do all she could.

It says so in the book why she did it! Raboniel had already found the Anit-Voidlight plate and suspected that Navani had notes somewhere. And Navani knew that Raboniel would comb the entire room and find it. 

She didn't ignore redflags, she took some risks and did the best she could for her people. And she did enjoy the chance to be a scholar but she had already been isolated from other people and there was literally nothing else to do to help.

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

So Navani get's to somehow know she will discover anti-Voidlight and use it to cure the Sibling but Kal doesn't get 4th? Really?

What are you talking about?

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

4th oath is not a very big leap

Even held prisoner I would not help the people trying to conqure the world.

The 4th is a huge leap. In the book, even before the occupation, we saw Kal sinking lower than he's ever been before (except for the beginning of WoK, but he wasn't exactly a Radiant then yet). Even after all hiss successes, it just got worse and worse and only Dalinar's vision allowed him to move on. And even when he did, he just fought the Regals, he cant destroy an entire army. It was only because the suppressors were reversed that he succeeded helping the rebels near the end. And Navani didn't try to help! She did all she could to keep them from discovering it. She failed, but its the intent that counts and, anyway, she did kill Raboniel and reactivate the tower.

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

One of them can use a Fabrial to fly.

The point of a siege is to cut off supplies and Windrunner can attack Heavenly ones outside the perimeter.

What about the Oathgates? The entire reason Urithiru is so important is that it can easily move soldiers and supplies instantaneously over large distances. And they couldn't fly out since the scouts would spot them. And how are they supposed to cross half of Roshar on that fabrial when each weight only lasts a minute or so? That's also far too much strain on Kal's arm and their Stormlight wouldn't be limitless. The whole point of the enemy taking the tower was because it would be near impossible to lose. Even after Dalinar found out, all of them admitted that the chances of taking Urithiru back was very slim. The tower was only saved because Navani discovered Anit-Light, bonded the Sibling and reversed the suppressors by creating Towerlight while Kal defended the nodes. There was literally no way either of could have done better.

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

Who took inititive in that situation? Who started that? Who actually did anything to make it happen? Dalinar

Her patronage of artifabrians is not evidence for being a good Bondsmith

Yes.

As I've said before I don't know if it's Dalinar or someone near him, but whoever it is they get the credit.

So they would keep people with opposing intrests from fighitng and establish order in times of conflict?

And on top of this it does not say putting themselves in charge.

Kaladin.

But who actually did the job? Dalinar had a support staff but he was the one who did the work.

This says more about the average intelegence of the fused than it does about Navani

How is it wrong? Who does she unify that wasn't already on the same team?

So far the arguments in her favor are: "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge"

That isn't even close to enough.

The Sibling itself on the verge of being killed still almost refused her. That should tell us something. Her responce to being called unworthy is just "No I'm not" It's structured to give a call back to Gavilar but she never actually became worthy of being a bondsmith.

OK, firstly, it says clearly that Bondsmiths oaths take on many different shapes and just because Dalinar is the only example we had doesn't mean all Bondsmiths have to be modeled after him .And Dalinar started the unification but that doesn't mean that Navani didn't have a huge part in it. She was there in all the spanreed conversations helping smooth things over and it was her essay that convinced the Azish. She held the early meetings together and in both that book and the later one, she organized the whole tower and kept it running. Whoever discovered Anti-Light gets the credit for that but Navani had to work, theorize and experiment to rediscover how to do it. All she really had to go on was the fact that it did exist. Plus, Rlain was happy as a Truthwatcher and we never really saw him with any urge or affinity to unite. And she's not just smart and good at being in charge, she likes making order out of chaos and seeing things fit together. The Sibling refusing her doesn't mean as much as you would think since its clear that the Sibling has some biases and is prone to being a bit extreme.

Welcome to the Shard! If you do read White Sand, by the way, try reading the prose version first. The graphic novel version has a slightly better ending but a lot is left out and very little character development. The prose is much better and its easier to understand what's going on.