AubreyWrites

This bothers me too and is one of the reasons I was so aggravated with Shallan this whole book. My Shallan arc has gone this far: WoK Shallan= meh, WoR Shallan = alrighty- girl comin' into her own!, OB Shallan= trying not to reach through the kindle app and give her shaken baby syndrome. and it's not because she's weak or having issues. I can relate to that. And it's not for accepting help (even if she doesn't actually TAKE the good advice from Wit) its because the root of her problems lay in the fact that she refuses to confront them or deal with them in any way. In personal level I am a very upfront 'let's hash it out and get over it' type of person and this type behavior drives me up the wall. I realize that others differ in the way they deal with things and that doesn't necessarily mean my way is right all the time or vice versa. This is just one of those personal pet peeves of mine. And it does drive me nuts that she views Adolin less as a equal and support then as a knight in shining armor come to give her a fairy tale ever after and fix all her problems. It will seriously bug me if this is the resolution ....but distilling this thread down makes me think it's not so... holds breath for next 2 years. Yeah it's easy to bash on him but I don't think anyone (could be wrong) on this thread actually dislikes him. I actually have a feeling that he is getting set up to get absolutely squished. (Whether he breaks enough for a nahel bond or not we will see- I could go either way) But being a side character I think we are going to see his arc develop much slower than our mains. I do think he is full fledged- we just haven't got to see it yet. I'm hoping that all sweeping of stuff under the Sadeas rug plus all the other stuff is actually just creating a pile thats going to explode all over the place later down the line. Otherwise yeah...that would diminish him as a character for me. Yes. To everything in this. Yeah .....such a bad idea.... this would seriously shatter her- I'm not sure she would be able to pull herself together - at least not in time for the end of the world I actually want to see him interact with Gavinor. I think he would be a great dad. It would be funny too to see Kaladin interact with Gavinor...trying to picture 'take your nephew/ ward to work day'... Yes. Having a child in the best of times is extremely stressful. These are not the best of times. Aside from all the normal stressors or pregnancy/birth/postpartum and then actual child rearing, you then have to add in all the ABnormal stressors. Can you imagine the confusion that child would face when her mom can't decide who to be that day? Or that moment? And oh yeah...the end of the world.... He has never been flat to me-I think some people just find him so because his arc is changing at a much slower pace relative to our MC's. (Reference above spoiler) I'm ok with his slower arc though. Everything is changing at such a frantic pace that he does stabilize the story- gives us a chance to breathe but I think his time is coming. Kids are great but Shallan isn't ready- she can't even solidify into one personality right now. And marriage isn't solely about making kids. In Alethi culture with the divided and distinct roles Adolin would very much benefit from having a wife in his role as high prince. In normal Alethi culture with abnormal woman yes....Alethj culture has just been up ended by the fall of the kingdom, the resurgence of the KR (of which his wife is one) and the end of the world as they know it. I can see perhaps the desire for one and maybe a little pressure from Navani. I can also see pressure from Shallan or Adolin as it would be a natural progression for conflict to arise from. But I don't see it actually happening. It would completely and utterly derail Shallan as a character.

I personally don't see her as either of these. I see her as uber focused. And really, until now we haven't really seen any one other than Kaladin challenge her in any meaningful way and come out at least breaking even. Amaram definitely lost his fight. Dalinar doesn't really even challenge her and he's the freaking BlackThorn!! (Obviously he is not in contention as a romantic option -just pointing out that basically NO ONE stands up to her and doesn't get mowed down) Why WOULD she waste her time on inferior quality partners. Especially when we take into her consideration her tendency towards logic. Logically, if no acceptable candidate has presented himself there is no point in messing around with inferior goods. And besides, she's got stuff to do. You know, like save the world. I think her lack of empathy has less to do with a true desire for connection (although not completely because I also think that what ever trauma they were shutting her away in the dark for as a child also plays a big part in her personality) and more a hyper focus to the exclusion of all else on her mission. That mission before WoR being the voidbringers and preventing their rise and in OB mitigating the damage. Like i stated upthread- right now at this point in their lives I don't really see this happening as an end game. Maybe in a couple decades assuming being KR makes them long lived. But man it really is fun to watch them clash and I could totally get behind the flirtation of the idea. Seeing what that flirtation would do to Jasnah as it begins to pull her focus from Very Important Work. could be so much fun. Oooh even better if it was onesided on jasnah's part and seeing that interfere with their interactions... Jasnah: "yes run along little wind runner and guard that terrace over there. While you are at it maybe you can identify with the downtrodden cremlings and start the Grand Cremling Revolution against their human oppressors. The big kids are gonna be saving the world over here." ( Storming man! Always looming over everything! Can't he give a woman space!) Kaladin: (glowers) "If I'm to lead the cremlings, shouldn't you come along. You are a little bigger than normal but I'm sure they won't have any issues identifying with their own." Jasnah: "Are you calling me fat?"(Oh dear, I've got you there. No impressive flying is gonna save you!) Kaladin: " Only for a cremling."(Smirks) "But I'm pretty sure that's a good sign among them. Means you are eating well...then again I doubt cremlings would appreciate your particular brand of privilege; you would probably would just end up squishing them." Jasnah: "Better them than you! If I decided to squish you, no amount of intense stares and fancy flying will save you." (Great I sound like Shallan...intense stare???) Kaladin : " Are you saying you want to squish me? I don't know if I'm comfortable getting close enough for any squishing to occur. It would be inappropriate for the leader of the cremling revolution to fraternize with his subordinates." (Plants feet and crosses arms. Lips twisted in smug smile. Raises an eyebrow in question) Jasnah: "What?! No! I'm not, I mean- " (stop standing like that! I don't care how much you loom, You are not winning this argument! Lower your- stop it! Lower that eyebrow! No I'm not looking at your lips- get that smug smile off your face....why am I even thinking about this??!! This is not logical!) "just go do your job! You have a job right? Mr. All-Floating glowy-pants. " Kaladin: (smirks and bows) "As you wish Your Cremlingness" ......I really should actually do the work I'm supposed to be doing instead giggling over mock arguments that I make up in my head...

I think many of us agree with this sentiment- it's not who she chose but how it came about that doesn't add up. I went back and re read that particular bit that you quoted above Because something struck me- she says that Veil has terrible taste but she has convinced her to fall in line....when was that? In the 30 seconds prior while she was kissing Adolin back into marrying her? So just like that in a blink, despite the fact that she was literally leering at him earlier alll those feelings have been squared away ship shape? I just have a feeling that's gonna come back to bite her in the butt. Also someone mentioned this upthread about momentum. "Momentum could be a powerful thing." shallan thinks this literally seconds before Adolin walks up in this scene. .....gave me the shivers

It's like you read my mind

That's what I meant although you clarified it better than I did.

As much as I read I always hated those classes too both in highschool and college. I think it was both because I dislike being told what to read. They always wanted us to read literature - as if those were the only works that hold any truth or meaning. Nothing against classics, I read and enjoy those too and often had already read the ones we were studying but they aren't a pedestal to be idolized and I have found just as much truth and meaning in works that were far more fun to read. and my teachers were always trying to direct the discussion around to their interpretation instead of allowing free flow and assigning material we had to LOOK for meaning in istead of letting the debate arise organically. Bleugh.

Maybe he has move direct control over the unmade that are considered mindless. He seems to have a pretty direct connection to and control over the Thrill considering the depth of his knowledge of its control/effect over Dalinar

I do think Lift's vote counts for a lot - as evidenced by everything you brought up and yes I can see it carrying weight with Dalinar. But just because Dalinar accepts it (by the way with not even a blip on the radar of 'this guy killed my brother and tried to kill me multiple times ' doesn't mean everyone across the board would. Dalinar may be in charge but everyone else aren't automatons. They are bound to have varying degrees of acceptance on this issue. I just have a vision of Dalinar embodying Jean luc Picard in a 'make it so' moment when ordering everyone to get in line with the idea of Szeth joining the team and Riker in the background ( embodying everyone on team Dalinar) waffling his eyebrows like 'seriously?'

@FuzzyWordsmith I know but it was rather jarring for that conversation to take place off screen. And yeah he told them the sky breakers changed sides....and he's a sky breaker..... After being burned a couple times by people he TRUSTED Dalinar is just going to take his word at face value? Who's to say that he's not a spy now. He has spent the entire series at odds with these people and now because Lift likes him Dalinar & Co are ok too? WE know he's not but we are also privy to his decision making process and character up till now. I get not turning away obvious help in the middle of battle but afterwards Szeth is basically acting bodyguard for Dalinar? Just another important off screen interaction that was frustrating in its lost potential for character dynamics

Yeah but he just shows up in the middle of the battle and they aren't even like ....'dude, aren't you dead?' Instead it's all like "oh no! The assassin in white! The bane of Roshar for the last six and a half years! Wait- you are with us now! Ok that's cool man!" Say whhhat?

@Valand yeah I saw that Typo as soon as it posted! One handed typing on a phone is not the easiest way to participate in discussions! but she goes out of her way to interact with him in a way that she doesn't with any others than Kaladin and now apparently Shallan. It is curious - I thought maybe it was just because of pattern that she was interested in Shallan (leaving out syl's intevestment in shalladin) but if that were the case wouldn't she be super curious about All the others KR too? Hmmm good for thought

She makes herself visible to Rock multiple times - not to discount this observation - I agree with all the statements- just clarfying this particular part

At this point in time it is basically impossible to separate age from how they act- especially on Kaladins side as he has not yet reached full mental maturity. Now in a couple hundred years or even a couple decades if they age differently as KR this will be a moot point but right now they aren't on a level playing field. I do love that Kaladin isn't afraid to challenge her and can keep up with her. Amaram was much nearer her age and she ran circles around him! Im totally looking forward to their future clashes And I agree- this is a fun thread and I having been having fun running with it- I apologize if I came off as taking it too seriously .

The reason why age keeps coming up is precisely because their respective ages are a huge factor in character growth at this point in time. Despite Kaladin having lived through some horrible experiences that DID mature him comparatively to others his age he is still very much prone to the vagaries of youth and navigating the adult world as evidenced by one example- his obliviousness when allowing Lyn to join the windrunners. The human brain doesn't even finish developing until around the age of 25. Jasnah is in her mid 30's. She had traveled the world and made a career for herself. They are on completely different planes of experience when if comes to life experience so yeah at his point in time age is gonna be a huge factor in character. Now this is interesting. And much more acceptable to me as an actual possibility in distant future. This seriously cracked me up It comes down to life experience. In this case even though Susebron was 50 he had only the life experience and understanding of a 10 year old. So Siri was actually the more mature one here. In RL we equate age with life experience more because as you get older, naturally your perspective and physical needs change and so your needs/wants also change and may not be in line with someone further away from your age. In fiction susebron physically doesn't age so all we have to contend is the mental- which Siri tops out on. Jasnah/Kaladin are completely different circumstance. Jasnah is older physically and she was not stuck mentally for the disparity of their ages. She has experience that Kaladin has yet to catch up on. And I don't think Jasnah needs a relationship to make her better. She is already amazing. She knows herself and what she wants. .... All that being said- while I don't ship this as endgame I do think it would be an interesting idea for Jasnah to flirt with the idea (and have trouble coming to terms with desiring a younger man not even a light eyes) I could totally see that doing some interesting things to upset the apple cart so to speak of her plans in life and crack open her character and allow for more growth. ( and it would be so fun to watch their interaction as it's clear Kaladin can go toe to toe with her )

Thanks for that quote - I did miss the emphasis on 'endure' and that does indicate a definite aversion to physical contact. Some of the markers are there to an extent if just very faint to me - which is why I have always attributed his quirks to his personal life experience and natural inclination to be an introvert. Since he doesn't really display all of them and the times he does I have factored Glys in ( who I guess could just be exacerbating those traits instead of being the cause for them) I would put him so low on the spectrum as to not be noticeable by anyone as other than slightly odd (and let's face it between all our MC's and even in RL who hasn't been chalked up for odd behavior at times! Points to self.) ....which is exactly where Brandon put him do I guess good job Brandon. Humans are such wonderfully contradictory creatures!

In regards BS statement - thanks for including that. I will be factoring that into my reread as I'm sure it will change my perception. I have always taken his background into more account for his behaviors and when not meeting people's eyes I have always attributed those times to his discomfort and guilt about/hiding Glys and his abilities. His discomfort with Rock's hug I have chalked up to the fact that he has always been slightly on the outside and is not used to such physical confirmation of his inclusion in the group and it was disconcerting. My exposure has been mostly limited to severe cases of high functioning physical/low functioning mental on the spectrum so to me a case as mild as this reads as just quirky normal. I know many people with these types of behaviors that have evolved from life circumstances and so attributed Renarin's to these as well. I want to make clear I am in no way shape or form trying to disparage or trivialize anyone else's experience or views. Just putting out there my view of Renarin through the lens of my personal experience

Ok I'm gonna have to disagree with the autism assessment. As someone with a very close relative and in close proximity to a family member with diagnosed severe autism I can't say that I felt Renarin raised any flags on The autism spectrum for me. He definitely has a physical disability in the epilepsy and his social skills have suffered from this stigma. Also an early childhood of fatherly neglect and abusive have contributed to his sense of low self esteem. Also factor in his interests lay in the academic which is social suicide for an Alethi prince. And then factor in that he has bonded a corrupted Spren-making him even less inclined for sharing time. He is an introvert. Whether from natural inclination or circumstantial inclination but his ABILITY to communicate is not in question. He communicates when he wants to and shows no sign on not picking up on social cues. ( rather unlike Adolin who can be oblivious to many social cues- as evidenced by the large body of irritated ex girlfriends ) He doesn't mind physical contact- I can't remember the passages - will have to look it up - but he is touch/hugged/patted on the back multiple times throughout the series and shows no outward discomfort at the contact. He shows no hesitancy in direct conversation to meet people's eyes or participate in group conversations ( he may not be super vocal but he doesn't shy away from questions or input either) Further he shows a desire to belong with a group- to fit in somewhere. From my experience, large group settings (like B4) would be completely overwhelming for someone who is autistic. The amount of overstimulation would drive an autistic person to either a) escape to a less crowded atmosphere b ) act out with coping mechanisms- usually repetitive behaviors (for example: flapping hands or repeating partiicular phrases) Renarin does have periods of obsessive repetitive behavior - but all those episodes are linked to his interaction with Glys not to everyday situations. Now the autism spectrum has been expanded to incorporate many behaviors under a large umbrella but the core behaviors of traditional autism include aversion to physical contact, inability to interprete social cues and often particular behaviors to cope with overstimulation. The severity of these behaviors is also on a sliding scale but the markers remain constant.

Agree with everything here- and a great clarification for the thread on the topic of a lot of us seemingly coming down hard in Adolin. Yes Yes. And that's not to say that they both have to bee exactly at the same place on the mental landscape. Shallan obviously likes Adolin and doesn't think he is stupid as she is the one to clarify that he is mentally direct. However her Order wheels and deals in the nuances of the lie and truth. Those being so layered and relative to each person make the mentally direct person to be...unchallenging for someone of Shallan's level. I don't even think she really realizes how condescending she acts towards him. It's an unconscious reaction of her assessment of his personality. I don't think Adolin is boring personally. But I see where Shallan,whose bread and butter are subtext and nuance would find him unchallenging. And what's the fun in challenging someone who can't compete on this particular field @FuzzyWordsmith and @PhineasGage thanks so much for those detailed explanations- it really was facinating to read. I love how you can hope on a fandom thread like this and actually learn something new in RL. I wasn't bored at all. So will I ....I'm gonna pull a Shallan and this point and repress repress repress. I had this same thought. On a random note ...just to stir the pot because I can no one has brought up (that I have seen yet so I could totally be wrong) the fact that Kaladin is a doctor's son and in another life would have been a doctor himself. We see how he handles Renarian's epilepsy. In a culture where Renarin has 'fits' and is considered the inferior son Kaladin doesn't treat him any differently for having an unusual condition that most others look down on. In fact he inquired as to the actual diagnosis And potential treatments for him immediately. Just wanted to throw it out there. So so often we just refer to Kaladin in the context of his role as a protector and leader but he definitely has the potential to be a great help to Shallan on her path to healing regardless of a romantic connection. Whether this comes to pass or not we will have to see. But we already have an example of him showing appropriate help/compassion in giving Shallan what she needs. First by treating her as one whole complete person and then by making a quip "take a stab at things" - not because he is making light of what she's going through right then but because he read the situation correctly and judged what what she needed to cope. So ..just sayin'...

I admit reading this I have never come across this particular localism. Had to go back and reread it- pretty sure I get the gist but was so interesting to note

Don't get me wrong - I do feel like she was being straightforward for the most part with Adolin in WoR- nor do I think she seriously considered Kaladin as a potential choice in WoR since he is darkehed and she is definitely rockin' some classicism from her upbringing. That doesn't mean they didn't have a spark- chemistry all over the place. And most of her banter is just that- banter. She tends to fall back on banter when she's uncomfortable ( jasnah calls her out on it several times) but the time she spends with Adolin is always light and frothy feeling. Surface feels and thoughts. She shows him what he expects to see because she DOES want to keep him. He is safe and fun and she genuinely likes him. But the fact that she doesn't have any inclination to show him anything deeper about herself even before she fragments and doesn't make any effort to know HIM on a deeper level doesn't fill me with hope for their future. and yes the chasms were a bonding moment for Shallan/Kaladin. One moment. But it was a huge moment. Kaladin found out more about her in those hours down there then all the months before and after that she spent with Adolin. And yeah in OB she does treat him like crap and then moons over him seconds later. If this is immature then yeah - she's barely 18 and dealing with Long past trauma and the end of the world and I still think resentment over Heleran's death is now stuffed up there in that mess if a brain of hers.? but it also brings to mind this quote from The Village - referencing M. Night Shamylan "Sometimes we don't do things so others won't know we want to do them." Especially after jasnah calls her out over her wandering eyes the "Shallan" persona gets even meaner to Kaladin while pushing all attraction into the Veil persona. Attempts to assuage feelings she doesn't want to have despite having them much? After crystallizing my feelings from this thread - I'm glad she didn't choose Kaladin right now - not particularly happy about Adolin choice either but that's just because I see lots more pain in that future. But hey- it will make for interesting reading on their journey!

I'm gonna have come down on the middle of this one. Where I am from the term 'dear is both pet name and term of condescension. It's all about tone and subtext. And the time/subtext I got from this statement in WoR in context in the conversation was definitely layered in condescension. That's why I'm falling more in @PhineasGage camp when Interperating interactions between these three. Most of their interactions if taken straight at face value would validate your stance on this imo. HOWEVER, I believe subtext is crucial- especially when reading BS. When taken in context and applying tone and reading the subtext the whole flavor of every interaction radically changes for me - landing me squarely on the other side of this discussion and pretty much in line with @PhineasGage thought. * I don't think the quotes copied right- the top quote isn't from greywatch it's from phineasgage

I think with OB being as stuffed full as it was it would have been difficult to give Adolin a completely fleshed out arc. Personally I don't think he will remain so going into S4. There's just too much that is being set up for his story line for him to remain stationary as a character. We have the possible revival of Maya, his sure to be massively conflicted marriage to Shallan, ( irregardless of Kaladin's presence or non presence) the effect of finding out his mother's death was actually his dad's fault - a man he has idolized and emulated his entire life( if he turns Radient I really think this is going to be part of what breaks him) his shifting responsibilities as High Prince and his adjustment to being a small fish in a very big pond of alligators...etc he has room to grow and the space to do it over the next several books. I DO wish his scenes had less of an emphasis on superficial qualities - even in the small doses we got and more on his reactions to changing dynamics but I still feel we got some growth from him. His growing friendship with Kaladin was really awesome to see. Especially in shadesmar when Kaladin was losing it. It demonstrated all the good thing s we love about Adolin. Im excited about his continuing arc.

Laughed ....a lot ...

Super like this Theory. And because I'm really good on procrastinating on the stuff I'm ACTUALLY supposed to be doing, I played around with letters and came up with a couple but this is my favorite. How about the KASDEN Mirror? Kaladin,Adolin,Shallan,/Dalinar, Evi,Navani. The word kasden mirrors back on itself too if you fold it in half so the letters land on their respective mirroring characters just my suggestion to throw out there! The random things one does to keep the brain active when rocking babies to sleep...

I agree- I really liked her arc in WoR we really saw her start to come into her own,especially after separation from Jasnah. Even though she is still a mess inside she has purpose and direction...OB not so much. I'm gonna hop on that Taylor Swift wagon with you and agree it's a perfect analogy!