AubreyWrites

I don't like Game of Thrones. I read the first book as a young teenager and couldn't pin down why I didn't like it- forgot about it and reread the first book again as an adult and still disliked it despite being an avid fantasy fan. It comes down to being bothered that the only way women seem to have or get any power in this series is either through sex or manipulation. As if those are the only 2 valid avenues....we have enough examples in RL of dis-empowered women that I don't need to find it in my entertainment. 

My husband's co workers (note not my husband) watch the show at work ( their occupation allows tv at work) and refer to it as 'Titties and Dragons' ...'nuff said

8 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I belive that when people say "arranged marriage", they mostly think at "forced marriage". Which I don't feel is the case here. I would consider this more along the lines of "suggested marriage" .

I agree. I read this whole causal arrangement as basically 'if the blind date turns out good then we can progress to the possibility of marriage.'

Both had the agency to break the causal. Many people today still go out in dates set up by someone else. Some end in marriage and some don't. The causal was set in place to see if it would work out. 

I think this functions differently from the "arranged marriage" we are used to seeing in a lot of fiction

56 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I suspect that some people here are in fact just upset that their favoured ship did not “win,” which is natural and fairly common judging from other fandoms. I suspect the real angst here is coming from a sudden lack of trust in the author, however, given that his writing up until now on this particular series has been very tight and careful, and it has now gone in strangely undisciplined directions all at once. Readers are now no longer sure that anything in the text has meaning in the way they once assumed that everything did — Sanderson has dropped too many foreshadowing hints now that failed to come to fruition

(Bolded)I think if you will go back and read through the thread (daunting task I know) you will see from multiple posts/people that this is not the issue. 

(Unbolded) this is more in line with the majority of the thread

@Ookla the Feathered you make an interesting and compelling argument. I enjoyed reading it. I don't really have strong feelings on the subject either way and but I could definitely be swayed by your logic

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

As thus I never read Adolin as being the glue, he's just the guy who actually loved Shallan, the very one Shallan the real Shallan has spent 1000 pages hating so much she wanted her to disappear. Choosing him was arguably the hardest path, it was choosing herself, the real Shallan and to stop giving way to the much easier path of forgetting Shallan. The way I read it is Shallan couldn't forget her memories again, because she said the truths, but instead she forged personas whom never had to deal with those truths, personas whom aren't broken, but then Veil broke and Shallan was forced to face the truth once again

If this is the resolution and Shallan chose herself then why didn't  Veil and Radiant reintegrate into her. Instead she's actually talking to both of them as if they are separate people right before her wedding....

This post is a mistake- can't figure it how to delete. Sorry

@Darvys great spot!! Have an upvote! 

42 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I have some sympathy with the idea but I'm not sure its appropriate for fantasy. Why read a book that is designed to show off unusual situations if you have to fill it with every day situations? Doesn't it stop being fantasy then?

Does it ever get old to watch the same old trope 'farm boy does chores before getting powers and spends x amount of pages failing at them before succeeding'? When done by a skilled author - no. We watched with just as much interested as Rand Al'Thor rolled casks of cider into the Inn at the beginning of Eye of the World because his chores - mundane as they are informed us about the world around him. I don't feel those scenes watered down the narrative but rather enriched his world and fleshed it out in a fuller sense. Kids don't have to be boring in the narrative and who says focusing on them would reduce the story to the mundane? If anything the wider perspective of a normal child in the midst of extraordinary events could prove enlightening. 

Paraphrasing BS on what he learned from Robert Jordan. "A cup of water is never just a cup of water in a book. 

That being said I hope we get to see a little of Gavinor in S4.

I don't necessarily need there to start being a ton of children in this series I was taking more kids in general fantasy. 

@maxal of course no one's lives are perfect when they decide to have kids but responsible people who are planning for children at least try to make sure they are stable. Shallan is....not

and i agree with you- it's because we so rarely see it that I would finding it interesting to read. 

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

lol, I will, no doubt say those very words myself when I have to give birth (side note, its a really icky process - and looks exceedingly unappealing to me - why do people do it more than once??.)

More than one woman has asked herself just after giving birth (points to self) .....

The mind is both a kind and tricksy mistress in that the passage of time usually highlights the end result as well as dimming the agonizing path to get there. And also a woman's perception going into birth has a lot to do with how the birth will go and how she will recall it in her mind afterwards. Pain is not necessarily suffering. Someone can experience pain ( example: pushing oneself in a marathon can be painful to the body but you wouldnt categorize yourself as suffering both because you chose to do this, it's not being done to you and you see the goal at the end of the finish line and know that there is purpose to your pain) 

suffering on the other hand is something no woman should have to experience during pregnancy/birth/postpartum.A lot of women experience this unfortunately. Whether lack of proper support from those around her to her perceptions and  fears surrounding the pain she is feeling. 

In this many things can help but I have found this to be one of the most helpful. 

Knowledge takes away fear and lack of fear takes away pain. (Obviously birth is still painful for most but the perception of that pain can be the difference between suffering and not suffering)

i didn't mean to spin off of this tangent. PM if you are interested in discussing more. I teach childbirth classes and am always interested in hearing difference peoples opinions. 

58 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally do not understand the strong resistance against Shallan having kids nor the ingrained idea within the readership the minute a woman has a child she is either: 1) succumbing to society pressure, 2) ingraining the idea women need to have children despite very few fantasy book ever broaching the topic of children, 3) boring and doomed to an uninteresting story arc.

Having children is not the equivalent of a death sentence for women: it by no way means those people stops being interesting because they have a child. It also does not mean their entire life will revolve around their kids, some of it will, but the idea a character such as Shallan would be ruined the second she gets pregnant is equivalent to having a very negative preconception of motherhood. People can both have children, interests and lead an fulfilling life.

It's not the resistance to Shallan having kids. It's the resistance to Shallan having kids RIGHT NOW. She's clearly not in a mental state healthy enough to be able to properly care for both them and herself. 

I was actually thinking this morning that it's true we don't hardly ever see children in their normal role as part of a family has a main plot point. I agree with you that I would love to read something's including that. 

6 minutes ago, straits said:

I am unclear on what this responsibility entails. Does it mean the author must study the real world equivalent of the mental issue, and devote a character's arc to the successful and medically confirmed treatment of the issue?

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Obviously, otherwise it would be unrealistic.

In a perfect world, yes. It isn't wrong to add-in some bad decisions into that, but you shouldn't suggest a closure right after a bad decision was made. Or if you do, then disclaim in the Author's Notes.

This is a difficult one because who draws the line and where it lands would differ according to everyone. However I do come down more on the @SLNC side. Everyone has a measure of responsibility for what they put out into the world. Most of us are small fish with minimal widespread ripples in how we effect the world at large. For those with a platform large enough to reach a more widespread populace  the measure of responsibility increases to a point. This means research and a knowledge of how what you present may be taken. Note I said measure and not sole responsibility. Media in all its forms has a huge impact on culture and morality and the shifts they take. Adults aren't the only ones with exposure to media as well. Books/movies/tv etc. have a definite impact on kids/adolescents in their formative years. This can be for good or bad- it just is. 

This isn't to say that characters should never make bad decisions or decisions that aren't healthy. Otherwise where would your conflict and growth be? But aknowledgement either through interaction or consequence to clearly shows that these decisions may not be the best course of action even if the character continues down that path show that least the creator is aware and that it intentional and gives closure.

I believe Brandon is a responsible thoughtful writer. I think he does his research. That being said, having Shallan make a decision at the end of the book that is clearly not in her best interests (having nothing to do with either Kaladin or Adolin - just simply throwing herself into marriage and calling it good) and then boom the book ends with no resolution on the outcome of that decision does send a message. It will be 3 more years and then we don't even pick up where we left off - it's a one year time skip. ....that bothers me.

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

This is something of a tangent but couldn't let this slide unanswered.

That's what Pattern understood as it was in lign with his expectation that she'd kill him at some point, i don't think she was talking to him, but to the woman who ruined her childhood. Maybe that misconception on his side is what makes him keep his distance, but i'm more inclined to it just being his nature as a Cryptic. Shallan was never seen to behave in a way or say something that would point to her resenting their bond, she found the use of the sword revolting because of the memories it brought, but in her mind there was a distinction between the spren and the weapon. In Shadesmar, we get few povs with them just chilling to be able to have conversations, they're mostly on the run, even Kaladin had only a few exchanges with Syl, beyond that if you've read the thread you'll have passed a few theories that might explain Pattern's aloofness in this book, relating to a supposed fraying of his bond with Shallan (and not because she hates him).

 

Yes I have read and agreed/commented on the theories about Pattern. And the point about Shadesmar still stands. Yes Pattern is being aloof but we don't really see Shallan going out of her way to engage with him either. When Syl's bond with Kaladin frayed we saw her becoming more childlike not Kaladin keeping his distance from her. In fact he tries to engage with her several times and then dismisses her lack of reciprocation as down to her whimsical nature. Shallan doesn't even seem to notice Pattern being less chatty and more aloof. 

In fact I actually said that I think it is self hate she is externalizing into pattern.  She asks why her mother tried to kill her- she loved her mother. And then she understands that her mother tried to kill her because of Pattern. Because of what she could do because of her bond with Pattern. Which is easier to do? Hate the woman she called mother whom she loved or hate 'the Spren that caused it all' (im being sarcastic here becasuse we know Pattern didn't cause any of it) which is why I call it externalized self hate. 

“Why did she try to kill me, Pattern?” Shallan whispered. “Mmm . . .” “It started when she found out what I could do.” She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father. Mother calling Shallan one of them. Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan. And then . . . And then a sword in Shallan’s hands. “He let everyone believe that he’d killed her,” Shallan whispered. “That he’d murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me.” “I know.”

"That secret destroyed him. It destroyed our entire family.” “I know.” “I hate you,” she whispered, staring into her mother’s dead eyes. “I know.” Pattern buzzed softly. “Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge.” “I don’t want revenge. I want my family.”

- Words of  Radiance 

My point being, their bond as vastly different compared to other bonds. They are in Shadesmar- he has an actual body more resembling a human one - giving them more common ground and yet the only real time they talk is when she needs something or wants to discuss something more academic in nature. It's just contrasting the different nature of the bonds between different KR

3 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Offtopic: I don't really know how I ended up thinking today (sure this thread has nothing to do with it.....) Wouldn't it be weird for non-radiants to date/marry a KR? They already have a life companion that follows them everywhere, know their thoughts and secrets. Wouldn't it be like being the second to your first/most important person?

I think it would probably be different for each one considering the wide variance of the natures of  both Spren and KR. Take for example some of the the different types of bonds we have on display now.

Kaladin/Syl:

These two are obviously very close and as Kaladin progresses their bond deepens. Syl's understanding and perception of human behavior has expanded exponentially. She is capable of caring about Kaladin and wants to be involved in his life choices. She is Kaladin's confidante. I could see in the future any non Radient woman coming into his life might have the opportunity to feel intimidated by and playing second fiddle to their relationship.

Shallan/Pattern:

Their relationship is much different. For one thing at one point Shallan actually tells Pattern she hates him. (Now I think a lot of this is self hate at how she has made use of Pattern in killing her mother but the point remains that she has a lot of resentment built up towards him) This is the foundations of their conscious bond. As Pattern grows in awareness their relationship very much stays in the academic. Experientation with lies and truth. They aren't best buddies. Shallan resents being tied to him but still makes use of him as you would a tool. When in Shadesmar we hardly see them interact at all unless Shallan needs something. (As opposed to Kaladin who flips his lid when Syl gets locked up) 

Dalinar/StormFather:

This is the first Relationship we see reversed where the KR seeked to bond the spren instead of the otherway around with the Spren finding the KR. Their relationship is still evolving as well. At the beginning of OB the Stormfather is very resistant to being bound and to considering any form of change and by the end he has more or less accepted the Nahel bond. Their partnership is still very much on a professional level of colleagues working towards a common goal - not drinking buddies out to shoot the breeze and experiment with Dalinar's powers. In fact several times we see the storm father refuse to give information or help because he doesn't trust Dalinar. I don't think Navani is worried that Dalinar is suddenly going to keep all his confidences from her in preference for hashing it out  HighStorm style. 

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

If we are picking ship roles, can I be the captain's Chicken? I feel I have some of the necessary qualifications, and am willing to bring my own feathers.

Oh oh oh then I want to be ships boy!! ( or girl - I can totally rock the Bloody Jack vibe)  I'm pretty sure they get all the great gossip and scraps from the galley. 

* referencing the Bloody Jack series by L.A. Meyers (so awesome on audio) 

33 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All we saw in OB was Shallan making a decision, was it the right one ? We think not, other people think it solved all her problems. Brandon didn't even begin spreading a message, false or otherwise, but we're all jumping to conclusions, you can't hold him responsible for our own precipitation. Beyond that, i'm all for educating the masses, but if it requires authors to limit themselves and reframe their work, then we have a problem. 

Many characters in different stories make bad choices that end up working out, should we discourage authors from writing such stories because they give the wrong idea ? I think not, we have to assume that most readers are wise enough to figure it out, for the rest all you can do is hope they're surrounded by people who'll point them the right direction.

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No, but give the right closure at end of a book and don't leave it hanging in the air for 3 years, because even if it resolved in a realistic manner in a later book, over those 3 years many will have read the 'supposed solution' and yes it is presented as that, because Shallan feels like it is so. Like I said, confirmation bias is a thing and people, who suffer from similar issues are often subject to this bias.

@SLNC you beat me to it. 

Its not the fact that Shallan makes a (open to interpretation here) wrong decision. If that's a decision she makes on her journey as a character then I am strapped in for the ride no matter which way she goes. But she made a decision and then the book ended. ......crickets......

no her arc doesn't need to be tied up In A Bow- there are seven more books to go but it feels like this arc got violently cut in half. 

What I have always appreciated from Brandon's books is that each book even when part of a series feels like a whole book. We have a beginning, middle, end. It's not THE end but is ONE end to each particular book. 

Paraphrasing @PhineasGage Here in that feeling becalmed in the SS Shallan when expected to make landfall. And now waiting another THREE YEARS to see if land is even in sight or if we are about to fall off the edge of the world into the space of forgotten/dismissed plot points 

16 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus.

 

Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first.

Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice.

I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. 

 

I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though.

@PhineasGage So first of all - major props to you for being able to sort through and multi quote and respond to all these posts so quickly. Girl you are a machine and I salute you! 

I see what you mean and yes that would drive me crazy. My husband comments on my apparently increasingly sensitivity issues regarding women ( to be fair to him never in a way that is hurtful) so I can see where the sentiment that Shallan's natural progression from marriage is to start popping out kids would be irritating because that sentiment bugs me too. We are more than walking uteruses! Lol 

i just couldn't resist clarifying where that mentality may come from a bit. 

Commenting on your observation about choice and Jasnah's words: I wish I could find the actual quote of that because this was an incredibly moving and inspiring piece of writing. It really resonates with me and touched me as a person. And it demonstrates a depth of understanding a strong woman that that contrast so crazily with the odd turn at the end of OB that makes me think BS HAS to know what he he's doing right??!! Makes makes the disparity even more jarring! 

My comment on raising kids was mainly directly at the observation that kids aren't interesting until they are old enough to be interesting. I just haven't found that to be true and was comparing how we watch their changes and progression with the same excitement we show these imaginary people we are so hyped up about. 

i do think shallan is going to have to have some sort of 'rock bottom' moment because it wouldnt make sense if she just up and got better after acquiring the 'love of a good strong man' 

i think Pattern is gonna be our canary on this subject and watching him will be a good indication of how close we get to hitting that bottom. 

@Prelude welcome to the club. You are not alone! As the pages upon pages of posts can attest- many of us also needed help processing our reactions to OB 

happy perusing!

3 minutes ago, Starla said:

@FuzzyWordsmith and others... Based on where Oathbringer ended (without you I fade, marriage, etc), what would you consider a satisfying direction for Shallan at this point, so that her mental illness is handled with the care and respect it deserves? I'm curious what our options are here. Looking for hope really.  

I could see this going in several different directions and I could be onboard with any of them as long as it is actually addressed and not swept under the rug. That's what I think many of us are afraid of considering the anticipation of several payouts built in previous 2 books that had little to no payout in OB (Sadeas anyone?) if S4 comes around and things are magically better because of the resolution in OB it will be completely unsatisfying to me. I think this a a large part of why this thread even exists. Promises were made to the reader about certain issues being addressed (which way is irrelevant ) and then they weren't....basically like it almost never even happened. It's making me twitchy 

53 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

F

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Shallan is capable of being a much better person than we often see her be. I think this is partly why people judge her harshly. She has had very few advantages when it comes to behaving well, so I think it is fair to excuse her to an extent, but she also calls people (eg Kaladin) out when their behaviour is equally bad, so she does know it is wrong. I think that because she is young, she doesn't necessarily see the hypocrisy she is occasionally guilty of (well we've all been there) so that makes her situation understandable, but it doesn't mean we have to condone it.

I agree to a certain extent. Shallan was raised in a home situation where inherently knowing right from wrong would be a difficult concept to practice. However, we have plenty of examples of her treating others by of her class/station with respect and dignity. Tyn was dark eyed, the dark eyed street vendor she over paid for food and directions, Sebarial's camp, Yalb the sailor .... my point being she knows how to act...which makes her reductionist and belittling statements to/about Kaladin most certainly intentional.

Which isn't to say she doesn't have reasons for regressing into such behavior as others have brought out. I'm only saying that personality wars aside and reasons for her actions aside she Is aware of the space her comments/actions create. 

 

In keeping with the ship metaphor; in terms of what I get from the general sentiment on this thread is that those of us sailing on the 'good ship Shalladin', most of us rather feel that we were were sailing with a good tail wind into new waters but that we were going to end up at a land of plenty and promise. The end of Oathbringer has actually left us becalmed at sea (a la The Ancient Mariner) miles from shore and we're running out of drinking water. It isn't that we landed at the "Island of Adolin" which, whilst not where we thought we were heading is a rich and plentiful land with fantastic hair, it is that even the ship's lookout hasn't spotted land yet.

At this point, I think many, if not most of us would gladly give up on Shalladin if there was dry land ahead where we could at least re-stock, recuperate and reconnoitre before getting back on board and sailing into oblivion. At least that way we could go down with the ship with good memories. No-one want to die of thirst and sunburn.

So this whole thing just cracked me up - have an upvote!

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree - I really can't see him doing this. Motherhood is something often viewed as inevitable for women - and it is a societal given that all women must like babies. HAve you ever seen a baby? They are pretty gross. Children don;t really get interesting until they are probably about 4 or 5 when they can at least do the basics for themselves and can actually start to think like actual humans rather than slightly clever and talkative dogs. Seriously though, the whole thing of "the best thing I've achieved is having children" idea is ridiculous - having a child may be very rewarding, but it is hardly an achievement. Anyone can have kids - jellyfish have offspring for goodness sake. A Nobel prize is an achievement, a degree is an achievement. Storms, getting an A at school is an achievement. Having kids.... not so much - raising them on the other hand is - which is probably why so many people make a mess of it.

Ok so I'm going to have to play devils advocate on this despite agreeing  whole heartedly with the sentiment that Shallan REALLY doesn't need to be a mom right now. Motherhood is not inevitable for all women. I know several who are perfectly content and complete without ever having kids. It is however a societal norm....the human race literally would not continue for very long if the majority of women up and decided that kids weren't their thing. It is also ingrained biologically to procreate. THAT being said- from my personal experience I can relate to both sides of this equation. I have zero (and I mean ZERO) interest in babies and kids as a kid/adolescent. No babysitting for money for me, no "aww she's so cute can I hold her" moments. I questioned my desire to EVER have kids or if I did I didn't want them until I was in my 30's (ya know like when I'm an old adult-  ) 

i ended up getting married super young at 19 and my Husband and I were very content just the 2 of us for several years. Around 23 my feelings about wanting a family changed. 3 kids later and I can say motherhood is a profound shift in my entire identity. The act of pregnancy and birth itself was in itself an achievement for me. It was the first time I really ever felt empowered as a woman for something really really hard that i did on my own (with my husbands excellent support of course) I'm still me but my interests have now expanded exponentially. 

And many parents do feel their kids are their achievements because we see this crazy tiny new entity that we made and now are responsible for molding into a person worthy of carrying on the human race. And that starts as babies. Much like we analyze and break down characters in these forums and get excited at character growth and development, watching your babies growth and change (at a really incredible rate) and see how differently they react to the same things as markers of their personalities is fascinating. And we get to have a direct hand in it. And when we see them make progress and have success DESPITE our own failings as a parent ...it's hard not to be super proud of that. 

So while motherhood isn't for everyone and that's ok it is definitely normal and the majority of outcomes in a woman's life. 

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Just as a tangential aside, but this thread just reached 666 posts, which I find hilarious, both because of the number and just the sheer size. We have outclassed the OB full book thread.

People will gravitate towards conflict!  and it seems many of us were/are definitely conflicted about this issue and the implications going forward! I haven't actually posted in the forums in about 4 years but I was having so much trouble resolving the root of my discontent at finishing the book that it literally pushed me into digging up my username/password from the depths of email black hole in the hopes if finding a thread on this very topic. I needed to see if I was the only one who was crazy for feeling the way I did! 

Kaladin - the guy just has presence...and can apparently go toe to toe with everyone in the cast (lookin' at you Jasnah) and manages to not get railroaded. 

Jasnah and Dalinar are tied for me. Dalinar became so much more real but his backstory was horrifying. I'm seriously wondering how his kids turned out so normal.   Jasnah is just awesome. I want to be her when I grow up ....at least until we learn what horrors/trauma lay in her past...

Adolin- 2 defining moments for me. Stepping up and being the support to keep Kaladin together after he had a meltdown during the fight in Kohlinar and appreciating Maya. This guy... can't wait to see his arc grow

Nightblood- for the oddly humanizing effect he had on Szeth 

Lift: she's responsible for being in some pretty pivotal moments- it's hard not to respect  influence

honorable mention: Rlain- I really wanted to see more than we got of him. Syl- because syl 

characters that went splat:

shallan...someone get this girl a therapist stat. 

Moash. You know some characters you love to hate?....yeah there's no love here at all. I haven't liked him since WoK. He always rubbed me wrong. I would prefer he go the Amaram route and poof. 

Venli: to be fair in order to go splat you have to be high enough to fall from. Like moash i need a little more convincing to even be interested in her redemption arc. 

@Greywatch then I'm not quite sure what to tell you-thank you? I'm quite sure I did not intentionally post twice. However it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility as my kid had my phone for about 5minutes during sleep time routine and I wouldn't put anything past that one's fingers. I did not see it or I would fixed it so thanks for the catch. 

25 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I get the impression that Shalladin shippers aren't the only ones who want Shadolin to end. I don't really care if Shalladin were to happen at this point, but I still think Shadolin might be better off ending for both their sakes. Shallan is clearly not ready for this, and Adolin could be spared a great deal of suffering.

Bolded- agreed

@Greywatch I'm not quite sure what you mean about the double posting as I have posted 2 completely separate thoughts in the space of 30 minutes and the quotes I included in each post from different people are in there exactly as I wished them to be. But thank you for policing my efforts in this discussion. 

@Calthrop

what an intriguing notion- I could totally run with that down the rabbit hole for a bit and see where it leads! 

11 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

From my perspective, it feels very wink wink nudge nudge, as in, oh this foolish boy, we don't like seeing you with the girl, we definitely want you passed over in favour of the guy we like better, but oh it's okay, we don't dislike him. It may not be what you intend to say, but it's been fairly overt in this thread.

I thought he did have growth, it just wasn't on the same scope as the Radiants. I liked that his story was about stepping back and being extremely self-reflective - I think it's something he's needed to do a lot in the past couple books, and I was glad to see him get it. Reviving Maya was a beautiful moment for me, evidence that Adolin's constant love, affection, and loyalty was meaningful. That it wasn't wasted, that his straightforward constancy is powerful enough to do the impossible. I think he's quite intelligent, but mostly puts effort towards the things that he values. I think he has also been through some terrible things in his life, but has an incredible mental and emotional resilience so much so that it leads people who don't know him to underestimate and think of him as simple and easy to manipulate (Sadeas...) I could really go on, but though I don't like Shadolin that much, I certainly think he's equally worthy of the consideration and respect.

I think if you go back through this whole thread and look you will find multiple posts of these exact same sentiments. 

6 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

agree with most of the post, but I don't think the bolded thing is entirely accurate. The feeling I'm getting is that people don't really want Shallan to end up with Kaladin either. Most fans of Kaladin actually feel he dodged a bullet. People seem to dislike the how more than the who. I'm not sure anyone wanted Shallan as she is in OB to pick Kaladin over Adolin.

Yes - this

12 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I completely agree. I feel bad for people coming into this thread who genuinely like Adolin.

As been stated many many times by many different people on this thread - we like Adolin. Some can be frustrated by his arc and the slow growth of it and weird off-feeling at the end of OB and the "triangle" in its present incarnation.... but I think most of us genuinely like him. We WANT  to see him grow and change as a dynamic character. And I think a lot of us are super worried FOR him in S4 and the conflicts he will be dealing with. 

Surely it's ok to tease about his "everything is awesome!!!' (Insert music here) disposition. It is not mean spirited.