Fanghur Rahl

I mean, one thing I will say is that technically Lirin may just be morally opposed to war, not necessarily violence under all circumstances. And considering that traditionally the Alethi (and Roshar in general) tend to wage war entirely for selfish reasons like sport and plunder rather than to protect the innocent, that’s not actually at all opposed to a Windrunner’s values, in fact if anything it would be consistent with them. I don’t think Lirin is like the Tinkers from WoT necessarily.

Yeah, it almost seems like we could interpret it in a "Who are you really trying to convince?" sort of way. It's just such a obviously wrong position to hold from a person who otherwise seems so pragmatic and rational.

So for a while now I’ve been thinking about this subject, and the other day I had made a post in the Stormlight Facebook group addressing it, and it ended up being a pretty big hit there, with reactions ranging from people loving it, to thinking it’s interesting but likely misguided. So I wanted to lay this out here as well and get some more feedback on it. So ever since I listened to Stormlight Archive the second time, with the benefit of hindsight from my first listen-through, I began to wonder whether there might be potentially more to Lirin (Kaladin’s father) than meets the eye. But at first I couldn’t quite place what it was about him that seemed off about him to me, but recently, it hit me. I realized that literally every single one of Kaladin’s ideals thus far, including what his fourth one is most likely to be, namely accepting that you can’t save everyone and to not allow your failures to prevent you from doing what you can, are things that Lirin has explicitly tried to instil in Kaladin and also operates by himself. In short, Lirin almost seems to me to be a Windrunner without a Spren. The first ideal is really too broad to find anything specific, but the second and third are very explicit in that he dedicates his life to helping people whose lives are in danger, he very explicitly was put into a situation in which Roshone, a man he had every reason to despise and allow to die, had his life entirely in Lirin’s hands, and Lirin chose to do what he knew was the right thing and save his life, which is the third ideal of the Windrunners. And he also has told Kaladin on more than one occasion that he no matter how hard he tries, he can’t save everyone, and that he needs to come to terms with that inevitability, which is most likely at the very least related to the fourth Windrunner ideal. So again I say, Lirin seems to be very Windrunner-y in his philosophy, with the only real difference being the way in which he chooses to protect people, namely as a surgeon rather than a soldier. Now I don’t believe for a second that Brandon wrote his character this way accidentally; the parallels are just to explicit for that. But the question is: what does it mean? And could it possibly be hinting at something? Now, before I go any further, I just want to freely admit that I have very little confidence that this theory is correct, as there are many other explanations for this that are much simpler, but I still think it’s at least worth laying out. So, here’s my admittedly unlikely theory: what if Lirin is a former Windrunner? Specifically a Windrunner from the time of the Recreance? Now, like I said, I realize how unlikely this probably is, but I don’t think it’s completely out of the question. After the Recreance, I think it’s entirely possible that some of the disgraced Radiants may have chosen to go into exile and leave Roshar, maybe becoming worldhoppers. And we know that worldhoppers often gain a greatly extended lifespan by as yet unknown means. And the one piece of evidence I have for this is how thickly Lirin lays on the whole ‘violence is always bad; nothing good can ever come of it!’ spiel. The way he speaks of that, and his conviction, seems to me to bespeak some deep familiarity with war and conflict. And the Radiants at the time of the Recreance pretty much got the ultimate example of this by their unwitting lobotomization and subsequent enslavement of the Singer species. With the Windrunners probably being even more deeply disturbed than many other orders by virtue of how much their order was all about protecting people and doing the right thing; I happen to be in the camp of fans who suspect that the horror of realizing what they had done to the Singers probably caused many of them to consider their oaths broken. And if Lirin was one of them, I can easily imagine his guilt driving him to be a hard pacifist, which he clearly is, and changing his method of protecting people from the role of a soldier to the role of a healer. And the other somewhat intriguing thing is that Lirin had a very interesting reaction to seeing Kaladin use his Windrunner powers, namely to look horrified and dismayed, maybe because he knew first hand what those powers could potentially cause and was horrified that his son now possessed them? Again, clearly there are many other possible explanations for this, and I freely admit that even I think that most of them are probably much more likely than this one. But I will say one thing with conviction, and that is that regardless of whether he’s a former Windrunner or not, I do think that Brandon must have written his character like this for some reason. One doesn’t just overtly display pretty much the entire Windrunner philosophy (in stark contrast with 99.9% of the rest of Roshar) for no literary purpose. Like I said, the only question is what that literary purpose is in this case? Could Brandon be hinting at something more important here? What does everyone think?

Okay, that makes sense.

So is it that when a spren bonds someone, that connection in some sense ‘imprints’ the person’s language onto the spren?

Yeah I know, but when in Shadesmar I don’t think they are communicating in quite the same way that they are when outside Shadesmar. In Shadesmar I get the impression that the communication is more ‘physical’ for lack of a better term, whereas between a Radiant and their spren it’s directly mind-to-mind. And then there’s Nightblood, whom different people seemingly hear very differently. So it just makes me wonder what the exact mechanics at work here are. I definitely think that connection is involved, but the question is precisely what form that connection manifests in, so to speak. If Syl wanted to communicate with, say, a Scadrian world hopper who had never been to Roshar before, would he hear her in Scadrian? Or would they just not be able to communicate?

So I had an interesting idea that I hadn't considered before, and it pertains to how spren and spren-like beings like Nightblood seem to be able to communicate with whoever they choose regardless of what language the person speaks. So it made me think, do spren just somehow instinctively know how to speak whatever language the person does, or are the spren in fact not actually speaking in a language at all, but rather in some sense in pure thought, mind to mind, and the language is just the way the person's mind or cognitive aspect or what-have-you interprets the Spren' communication? In other words, is Syl actually objectively speaking in Alethi in the sense that she perceives herself as doing so, or is that just how Kaladin is perceiving her because she's communicating directly with his mind, which communicates in Alethi? I can see it going either way to be honest.

I’m pretty sure Brandon has said that Aona and Skai’s relationship was purely business like, which in no way implies any real affection for one another.

@Void89 Well the thing to remember about Devotion and Dominion is that those two Shards already have somewhat opposing intents; one's about dominating people, the other is about love and compassion. So it's entirely possible that the two of them wouldn't have stood together against Odium when he was there, and probably had a somewhat fractious relationship already. And in fact, if I recall correctly, Brandon hinted at one point that Odium somehow managed to make Aona and Skai turn on each other, which might explain it. But as for Roshar, yeah, that has never made any sense to me whatsoever. Because Honor and Cultivation were very close, at the very least lovers, possibly even husband and wife, and thus Odium would not have been able to do that with them. And I refuse to believe that he is powerful enough to take on two Shards that have united against him at the same time, especially when neither of their intents would seem to preclude them from defending themselves or going on the offensive. So I have no idea how he ever managed to gain any power in Roshar, much less splinter Honor. But I guess we'll find that out eventually. But Odium certainly does seem wary of Cultivation if nothing else. Hell hath no fury and all that, I guess.

At at least one point in Stormlight it has been heavily implied that Odium has been wounded in the past, and he’s referred to as the ‘Broken One’, but what exactly do we think that means? I know that there’s a WOB in which Brandon hints that in his battle with Dominion, Skai manages to put up a really good fight (or at least that’s how I interpreted it), so is it possible that he managed to do some kind of irreparable harm to Odium? Maim him, so to speak, whatever that term would even mean when applied to a post-physical being like a Shard? Maybe the Shardic-equivalent of lopping off a limb? Or am I probably reading more into this than there is?

I actually really like this idea. Because we kind of get the impression that Elsecallers are generally supposed to be the most ‘objective’ and analytical of the orders, and a very common trope in fiction is that the more analytical someone is, the less ‘human’ they become (DeVoe on The Flash is probably the best example), which is always something I disliked as I think it’s a hasty generalization at best. So I think it would be great if the Elsecallers averted this trope. Maybe it would be something like “I will not allow my logic to drive me to abandon my compassion”?

Agreed. I’m not saying it’s inevitable, just that some intents are likely more inherently dangerous than others when all-consuming. I think Devotion without restraint would, if anything, lead to something like a benevolent dictator like VIKI from I Robot. And while that’s certainly less than ideal, is much rather live with that than with Odium. Stalkers don’t actually love the person. Not really. They’re just obsessed with them. There’s a difference. All love can be seen as a type of obsession, but not all obsession can be seen as love.

Maybe, although I have the feeling that would be equivocating on what the Shard’s intent is; those are two very different meanings of the same label. At any rate, Shardic intents typically aren’t self-directed.

Yeah, but some of the Shards ARE more inherently likely to turn their Vessels more good or more evil than others are; I have a hard time imagining how Devotion, which represents love and compassion, could result in a malevolent Vessel. And Ruin and Odium are both vastly more likely to result in malevolent-leaning Vessels I think. Dominion probably has more wiggle room, but probably not that much if the Skaze are any indication.

Yeah, Dominion is a Shard for which I think Odium probably did the Cosmere a service in destroying, because I think that had it survived, it almost certainly would have ended up causing problems eventually.

I just re-listened to Elantris, and I’m still a little confused as to just how the magic system(s) relate to Devotion and Doninion. Because as I understand it, all magic on Sel is related to both, but certain subsystems unambiguously seem more related to one than the other. For example, AonDor is extremely ‘Devotion-ee’ whereas Dakhor and Bloodsealing seem almost entirely what I’d expect something of Dominion to be given that it was presumably a very dark Shard. Do we know whether the various subsystems of Sel are equally related to both Shards? Or are some more skewed toward one than the other? Because the latter certainly seems to be the case at a glance.

Maybe Honor had/has one or more Avatars, one of which was Unity.

The problem with cognitive shadows is that in literally every instance the concept comes up, it is seemingly describing a completely different and arguably only tangentially related concept. Like in Secret History, the first time it comes up, it basically refers to a ghost, or a person's mind immediately following their death that exists entirely in Shadesmar and has no physical connection. And cool, that's a perfectly clear description of the concept. Then Stormlight comes along and claims that Tanavast's cognitive shadow, which apparently does NOT include his mind, has become one with the Stormfather, and then later that the Fused are cognitive shadows and Spren that Odium essentially glues to Singer bodies. So that's two different usages right there. And then after that it says that the Heralds, who are seemingly 100% flesh and blood human beings, are also cognitive shadows. I dunno, I just wish he'd take a leaf out of Stephen R. Donaldson's book and include at the back of each book a glossary that rigorously defines what each term means canonically. I realize that this pet peeve is somewhat personal as a result of my education in taxonomy, and it in no way should be taken to suggest that I don't still adore Brandon's work, since I absolutely do, but even allowing some leeway for future expansion of lore, it does strike me a pretty clumsy from an objective standpoint. I think that's probably Brandon's weakest area.

I admit, this pet peeve largely stems from the fact that I’m a biologist by education and thus am a stickler for rigorously classifying things. But regardless, even allowing some latitude for impish misdirection on his part, I just think that he takes it a bit far sometimes. Just not defining it and leaving it to the readers to intuit it based on context is one thing, but defining it in multiple completely different mutually exclusive ways in different books/sections and then using the same label interchangeably thereafter in WOBs and books is just bad form in my opinion. Cognitive shadows and souls are by far the most egregious examples of this. And Syl and Nightblood and the Fused should not be regarded as belonging to the same specific category; I will be saying that until I die.

Yeah, I really wish Brandon would stop playing hijinx with his terms so much. All it does is confuse the issue. If I had to pick one thing about Brandon’s writing I disliked, it would without a doubt be his tendency to not rigorously or even adequately flesh out the terms he uses and use them consistently. Like how many completely different definitions of ‘soul’ does he use interchangeably? Or ‘spren’? Or ‘ascend’?

This is something I’ve always been confused about. Is the Stormfather literally Tanavast now? That is, is Tanavast’s ghost/mind still alive within the Stormfather similar to how Kelsier briefly ‘lived’ within Preservation’s power before ultimately becoming autonomous again? Or is ‘cognitive shadow’ being used in yet another completely different way in this context? Because honestly, I’ve seen no evidence whatsoever that Tanavast lingers on in any meaningful sense, within the Stormfather or otherwise.

So would a better analogy possibly be that the intent of any given Shard is a bit like the fundamental laws of physics in String Theory? That is, there’s only one fundamental set of physical laws, but depending on the way any given universe’s hidden dimensions are ‘folded’, they manifest themselves is seemingly very different ways? In this case, the true ‘laws’ are analogous to the true Shardic Intent, and the subconscious properties of any given Vessel are analogous to the effective laws resulting from the hyperspatial vacuum structure of various universes? (That really is the best analogy I can think of, I’m not just nerding out).

Well then how could two people, in this case Dalinar and Tanavast, interpret the same Shard to mean two completely different things that are only tangentially related at best? Honor and unity are not synonyms or even near-synonyms. One could argue that one is often the result of the other, but that’s something else. When I think of a Vessel reinterpreting the intent of their Shard, it’s always to some near-synonym of it. Like Honor to ‘Virtue’ or ‘Honesty’, Devotion to ‘Love’ or ‘Compassion’, or Preservation to ‘Stability’ or ‘Persistence’. Because those are all conceptually very similar. But I’ve always been of the opinion that Honor and Unity sound more like two completely separate Shards, and I’m rather partial to the theory that Unity was one of the Sixteen but was immediately destroyed by the rest out of fear that it would want to reform Adonalsium.

@Calderis Let me ask you this. Let’s imagine a hypothetical scenario in which someone had the opportunity to take up a Shard, and they fully believed that the Shard they’d be taking up is the one we know as Ambition, when in reality it was actually the one we know of as Devotion. So they take up the Shard... what happens next? Would they even be aware of their mistake under your model? Setting aside the issue of whether it’s even possible to take up a Shard and mistake it as a completely different one; let’s just assume for the sake of argument that it’s possible. Because it almost seems to me like you’re sometimes saying that the Shards don’t really have innate intents independent of their Vessels’ subconscious interpretations. I’m pretty sure that isn’t what you really think, but it’s kinda confusing.