Mage of Lirigon

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well if attempting violence against people regularly and reliably results in your death, the idiots who would do it anyway die off, and the sensible people who can run a cost benefit analysis decide to not assault others. In the long run overall death declines dramatically.

...That's really not how that works.

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They were trying to rape and murder her. This wasn't some mistake from someone who had too much to drink.

No one said it was. That doesn't change the point I'm making. No legal system will allow unlimited use of force in an altercation. Jasnah was in absolutely no danger from the footpads. You could argue that killing the ones who attacked was fine, mostly because Shallan was also in danger but there's no way killing the runners was OK.

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How so?

Because premeditated murder.

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Believing people are superior/inferior based upon whatever particular distinction creates said classes.

That has nothing to do with having the basic risk management needed to say that someone with more power can cause you a whole lot more problems if you aren't careful.

 

And you think the differing ways Jasnah handles people has nothing to do with classism?

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

It objectively doesn't as murder is a legal definition.

You're being pedantic again. Whatever you want to call it, creating a legal loophole to kill people will result in more people being killed.

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I would argue it also results in less death as well, but this is getting too close to politics again.

How on Earth would it result in less people being killed?

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There are more self-defense laws in various locations than I can count. What might be required by law for you might not be required for me and vis versa. And legal doesn't necessarily mean moral. Without access to Kharbranthian legal codes I can't say if what Jasnah did was legal or not.

There is no self defense law IRL that allows for unlimited use of force in any altercation. If someone punches you in the stomach and runs away you can't shoot them in the back and claim self defence.

Even Stand your Ground laws only allow lethal force when proportion to an imminent threat. 

Of course we don't know Kharbranth's legal codes but considering they have a policing system, I'd be willing to err on them having something similar.

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I can say however that I see no moral grounds to condemn Jasnah for what she did.

From a moral perspective we'd have to consider her intent which makes what she did even worse.

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That's not her being classist, that's her victims having different levels of power.

What exactly do you think classism is?

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No, Sadeas accusing Dalinar of losing his stomach to fight. 

He accused him of both.

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

I feel like lethal force is exactly proportional to lethal force. I also don't feel like a criminal can start a deadly confrontation with me on a whim and then retreat back into safety the moment things start going poorly for you. That seems designed to aid the criminal.

 

It's not designed to aid the criminal. It's designed to reduce loss of life in general. A world where you can legally kill anyone that gets into a fight with you is world with a lot of murder

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I'm not sure where you're getting the supposed to here, you're only supposed to use the bare minimum amount of force according to whom?

I'm talking from a legal perspective.

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She felt comfortable playing judge jury and executioner for Aesudan, who socially outranked her. Or Renarin, who might have outranked her, though exactly where he fell in succession compared to her is unclear. Or Fen who was her equal. Social class wasn't really a consideration for her.

She used an intermediary in the case of Aesudan and she spared Renarin and Fen. On the other hand she felt completely free to discuss and complete her plans of premediated murder right in front of Shallan with no fear of censure. Why? Shallan knowing about her murder plot or the killing the footpads would result in anything happening to her at all, because of the class divide.

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The thing is that she's the only one to really act like that. Even her own brother doesn't act like he's better than everyone else just because he is.

Lmao what? Of course Elhokar acts like he's better than everyone. There's multiple chapters of Oathbringer where Kaladin bemoans exactly this.

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Dalinar might be called typically Alethi, but only by foreigners like the Azish. The entirety of WoK is Sadeas accusing him of not acting Alethi, and WoR is Dalinar fighting the Alethi culture. I think that it's more done to show the biases of the people speaking not to use Dalinar as a stand-in for the Alethi.

Jasnah as far as I can tell is never called typically Alethi in the books. Her comparison to Dalinar is with her disposition, picking a stool as her preferred chair and what-not.

 

Sadeas accuses Dalinar of being a hypocrite for trying to be honourable, because Alethi culture values the appearance of honor more than actually being honourable. That's a riff on Sadeas more than Dalinar. Alethi male culture revolves around fighting as a virtue, so yes, Dalinar Kholin, commonly held to be the greatest living soldier in Alethkar is a good example of Alethi masculinity.

The same goes for Jasnah, where Alethi society holds that women be beautiful, intelligent and cultured as their core virtues, Jasnah is a perfect examplar. Shallan brings this up more than once in Way of Kings. her only "flaw" is being an atheist.

On 3/14/2026 at 5:58 PM, Returned said:

I don't think that the suggested classist angle holds water. Jasnah wasn't any more or less callous about the footpads than she was any of the other people she killed or had killed; it's not like she inquires about their nahns/dahns before destroying them, though it's probably a fair bet that strongarm robbers roaming the streets are not wealthy. Every political figure she had assassinated, or was clearly willing to assassinate, was in the uppermost echelons of society. Killing is on the table for her as a tool, and she doesn't exclude anyone from that consideration.

The fact that Jasnah is willing to show mercy to nobility before killing them yet  acts mercilessly towards plebians by itself casts her actions in that lens. 

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I also don't think that her roles as a high noble or princess really affect her in the ways suggested. Her shattering intellect and strong self-possession would lead her to feel equally unconstrained even if she were a tenner or a 10th-nahn woman,

It would be far stranger to me if being born and raised as a princess had no impact on her in those ways. Her callousness to me surely stems from her position at the top of Alethi society. We've certainly seen throughout the series how their society excuses excesses like that. 

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it's more plausible to me that she does not accept that the state has a monopoly on violence (legitimate or otherwise).

I would find that highly implausible considering her behaviour throughout the series. 

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Compare with Moash: whatever you think of him, he didn't justify his extra-legal self-directed activities and choices by feeling like he, himself, was the government in some way.

I mean, he justified himself using the exact opposite logical the comparison doesn't really hold water. 

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I'm also a bit surprised to see so many appeals to her supposedly deep-seated Alethi nature as guiding her actions. She definitely makes a nominal show of those qualities (for convenience and formality more than anything else, in my reading) but she also shows an awful lot of specifically un-Alethi traits in very prominent ways. She, famously, rejects Vorinism in a heavily theocratic society. She wants to be queen regnant despite that upending the masculine/feminine arts divide. She banishes slavery. She wants to end the monarchical and feudal structures of Alethi society and usher in democratic governance.

Jasnah having some un-Alethi traits or rather traits belonging to Alethi men not women doesn't change how many of her behaviours stem from her upbringing in Alethi society, just like Dalinar picking up female Alethi traits like reading and writing don't detract from many of his behaviours being typically Alethi.

The fact that these two similar people who are often described as being so typically Alethi are revealed throughout the stores to have serious faults in their behaviour is Sanderson's way of critiquing Alethi culture as a whole. blockquote widget

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

After they started a confrontation I don't think that they have any natural protections while the situation lasted.

Yes they do. There's a reason things like proportional use of force exist. In civilised societies, we don't kill down to the last man anyone who starts a conflict with us. 

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I'm not sure I understand this one. What does the balance of power have to do with it?

You're only supposed to use enough force as necessary to stop the attack and prevent harm. Jasnah is so much more powerful than the footpads that deadly force is far beyond the pale. 

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I'm not sure how class enters the picture. Neither Jasnah nor Shallan mentioned it, and it had nothing to do with what Jasnah was trying to do.

Subtext is a thing.

Jasnah being so socially above both the footpads and Shallan are a big part of why she feels so comfortable to play judge, jury and executioner with the footpads and allow Shallan to watch. 

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If they had surrendered, or managed to escape and Jasnah found them later I would agree.

However, in that moment, there is little distinction between retreat and repositioning. As of that moment I still consider them combatants.

You're being pedantic. They weren't soldiers repositioning to continue attacking, they're thieves running away because their friend got turned to smoke in front of them. 

The utterly asymmetrical power balance between them makes killing someone who ran away instead of just leaving them alone or capturing them morally repugnant. 

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She didn't force the footpads to attack her. All she did was wear a particular outfit and walk down a particular street, neither of which is wrong.

No one said she forced them to attack her or that walking around in a set of particular clothes in a particular location is wrong. 

It also does not change the fact that she engineered the whole situation simply to demonstrate to Shallan the power she had over people of lesser social classes than her (like Shallan) and dressed it up as a lesson in morality. 

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe she had an obligation to spare them. While she might well have been able to survive anything they did if she planned her actions correctly, they did not know that. They were willing to kill, and having started the confrontation Jasnah has the right to deal with them as she sees fit.

 

 

She did have an obligation not to kill the ones who fled. Pretty much any rules of engagement would agree there. 

I could accept her having the right to kill the one who attacked her, but the ones who ran away? No. 

There's a certain classist perspective to this whole affair. Jasnah is not incapable of offering mercy or clemency to defeated foes, so it sticks out that she offerered none to the footpads.

There's also the point that the whole reason she did the whole thing was as an object lesson to Shallan, no different than when Dalinar attacked Elhokar.

She did it to show Shallan that she could be erased just as easily as the footpads if Jasnah wanted to, just like Dalinar almost killed Elhokar to prove he wouldn't. 

There's a reason why she and Dalinar are noted to be so alike and both are considered to be the pinnacle of what it means to be Alethi. 

The Cosmere was always heading in this direction, you could see it even in say Mistborn, look at how Vin changed how she operated and even commissioned experiments once she learned new truths about Allomancy. 

Once you have a magic system in use by people, they're going to experiment to focus out how things work, that's simply human nature. It's something you rarely see in fantasy novels and something I appreciate with the Cosmere. 

54 minutes ago, Jult said:

2. I doubt this. Mainly because it will result in a ton of factions that would be hard to keep track of. But also, because I personally suspect you need to be on Roshar in order to bond a Spren. I think someone (Syl probably) needs to 'Accept' the Words as Stormfather once did. Otherwise Radiants would be too commonplace in the late stage Cosmere. Sigzil and Aux may possibly contradict this idea. But most rules seem to stop applying once Dawnshards come into play.

Also as of the end of WaT, there's not much incentive for a spren to have a Nahel bond anymore since they can manifest and live normally in the Physical World without it.
 

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3. Elsecallers should be a huge deal during the space age, and I agree that their absence from the few stories we have in this time period is odd. Especially IotE. Who cares about a Perpendicularity? Just send someone to open an Elsegate. Something game changing must happen to the Elsecallers and/or Inkspren in the second Stormlight Era.

Same as above. Inkspren don't like Nahel bonds already. Once they find out they don't really need it anymore, why bother with the risk?

15 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

They also use spores, and I believe Rosharan Gravitation as well. It makes me wonder if the North destroyed their R&D or something.

Seems more like they just borrow and integrate tech from other planets a lot.

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

I agree with you that it was always a theme of the books that the idea of keeping oaths dogmatically was bad.  I think by RoW we all suspected something was not right with the Oathpact.  We also knew that Nale was keeping his Skybreaker oaths while doing bad things.  I think the message of the earlier books was - Oaths are good but they aren't "enough."  Someone who keeps the oaths of the knights radiant isn't automatically a good person and a person who doesn't swear oaths can be just as good as someone who does.  I think it also shows that good people who are trying their best can fail and there can even be morally good reasons (in rare circumstances) to break oaths.

 

As someone else mentioned - early books in the series dealt with the idea of building up personal character and virtues (while still understanding that we need to be kind to ourselves and that society's expectations aren't always a good guide for what is right).  Later books in the series reversed the order - prioritize your own mental well being even (or perhaps especially) if it means discarding your previous moral convictions, but still try to have personal character and virtue as well.  The first message resonates better with me (and the overall culture at least in the US of 2010 when WoK was released) while the second message resonates better with the culture of the US of 2025.  IMO - both have their merits but one fits me better than the other.

This book still has that message, in fact I'd say it handles that message even more than earlier books because it asks these questions in a more systemic manner rather than just a personal one. 

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Where I disagree with you is that I feel WaT breaks from the moral theme of the previous books.  It changes from "taking oaths is good most of the time, but there are exceptions and you have to do it the right way" to "taking oaths probably isn't a good idea at all, but in rare exceptions a few people can do it"  I felt like every major protagonist who interacted with the idea of oaths came to that conclusion.  I get where he's coming from here - people can really mess with their own mental health by holding themselves to impossible standards and we really need to be able to let go of those things when they're unhealthy.  And I think that's Sanderson's intended message with the book.

Nowhere in this book does it say that taking oaths probably isn't a good idea, just that doing so blindly and without thinking isn't, which is an important qualifier. 

The major characters we see renounce oaths did so in line with their own characterization, like Szeth's lifelong inability to make his own decisions, Dalinar's bad habit of authoritarianism, or Sigzil growing into the Knight Radiant he always wanted to be. 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Absolutely my thoughts on the matter. This is a huge problem of this book for me, it looks like filled with a lot of modern messages.

This is a book written in modern times, so yes, it had modern messages. That didn't start with this book. 

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And maybe the overall idea of the cosmere was "something is wrong with the Shards", but then there should be other external standard to follow, if gods are not gods.

Dalinar literally came up with a whole new religion more or less for that same purpose. 

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And this book to me screams something like "no external moral compass is good enough, the only correct moral compass is inside you", which is (in my opinion) absolutely wrong and is actually a very modern (liberal?) idea.

The idea that critical thinking about religion is a modern or liberal idea is quite a take. People have doing this IRL for thousands of years, there's a whole field of study about this, which is practised to some degree by regular believers everyday. 

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, that's what I don't like about this book, because it was not like that in WoK and WoR. In WoK and WoR (and OB) morale was represented like it is - a set of rules driven by some divine / transcendent meanings, that also helps people live together in society. And now all of it is thrown out the window, screw morale and external rules, rules suck, mind your own business and desires, do what you want, only your desires matter, only your feelings matter. You don't want to win a contest by killing someone dear to you? Don't, we will come up with some deus ex machina stupid decision, but then Wit will come and explain why it is brilliant and the only right thing to do. You don't want to keep the oaths you've sworn on the exact same page? Don't, renounce them, you deserve it. Noone will get hurt, your spren will find another Radiant to bond, it's fine. You don't like oaths? No problems, join our Unoathed squad and you will have your superpowers anyway for free.

It was like this in those books too, or did you forget about the Heralds and the original Knights Radiant? The story has simply reached a place where it's focusing on things like this.

If you really thought this was a story about how simply following rules without thinking about them, you've seriously misread the whole story.

Not once did the story say that morality is bad or that you should only do what you want, it's saying you need to really think about your behaviour if you want to be a good and moral behaviour.

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

That is exactly what I said I don't like about this book. Taking something good and subverting it into something bad, pretending that it's good. And also pretending that not following oaths is something hard. Everyone always keeps oaths, you know, it's how it works. Everyone cares about everyone else but not about themselves. But it's not good, you have to think about yourselves and not about the others, you should not follow oaths if they don't suit you, it's hard, I know, it's very hard not to keep an oath or, say, refuse to be a king if you don't want to, or refuse to kill a man you hate, it's very hard, noone ever does it, but here we go, you have to take effort and start thinking about yourselves, guys. Protect yourselves first, don't stick to stupid oaths, follow your own wishes.

You can pull the wool over people's eyes as much as you can, it won't work with me, sorry. I have my own head on my shoulders and I see what this "subversion" really is.

Again, if you think that dogmatically following any rule is good and examining how the rules were created and how they apply to you is bad, you've really missed the plot. We see in the story how blindly following rules only leads to suffering being perpetuated throughout the generations.

On 1/4/2025 at 7:40 PM, Aeshdan said:

Yeah, this has been one of my biggest disappointments with Wind And Truth. One of the things that I really liked about the first few Stormlight books (particularly Words of Radiance and Oathbringer, but also Way of Kings to a lesser degree) was that they were books where morality was a major part of the plot, that characters drew power from their Honor and we got to see moral lessons played out in a practical fashion. Words of Radiance helped me really understand the importance of protecting even those you don't like, Oathbringer showed me what repentance looks like and helped me to understand what I already believed about how it works. But the last two books, it feels like Sanderson has shifted his focus from morality to therapy, lost a lot of the book's original focus on Honor and virtue to instead focus on mental health. If there was supposed to be a moral in Rhythm of War I missed it, and I don't understand what lessons Sanderson was trying to teach in Wind and Truth.

The moral of the story is to think critically about your morals.

Any moral system you use without thinking about the context behind it is like a house with a bad foundation. When a disaster happens it's going to collapse and you might get hurt with it.

Being a moral person isn't about following a set of rules someone gave you, it's about asking questions about how those rules came about in the first place and how they relate to your life. That's the most practical fashion in which morality can impact people. That's what Sanderson was trying to teach in this novel.

On 1/4/2025 at 1:21 AM, Sedside said:

He was a womanizer in the past, now he is away from his wife for who knows how many years, he is surrounded by women who adore him, he doesn't like oaths and don't want to sit on the chair until told he could stand, will he be cheating on Shallan? Of course not, because his wandering eyes had magically disappeared when he found The One, and his dislike of oaths is for any oath but this particular one. And as well, because he is honorable and amazing.

I don't know where you get the idea that Adolin dislikes oaths because he wants a reason to be dishonest. He dislikes oaths because he thinks they're too dogmatic, especially within the context of his personal experience.

1 hour ago, Govir said:

This is what just hit me if this theory is correct, and caused me to search the forums. That will be a *wild* reunion, if it happens at all on screen.

I can't even imagine, Shallan was doing so well (relatively) and now she's gonna crack again. I can imagine Chana will not be kind.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I'm not sure who else it could be since he had the same visions.  I think it more likely that Gavilar deliberately misunderstood the stormfather.  Gavilar was appears to be a sociopathic high functioning narcissist.  While this is a manageable problem in of itself I think he was a victim of his own success.  While he had to use his considerable talents to unite a kingdom he apparently got to used to winning afterwards.  Thadikar even warned him about the danger of what he was doing due to the similarity of their experiences.  The major difference was that Thadikar actually kept confidants and trusted others despite everything.  Gavilar didn't ever trust anyone.

Yeah, you can see even see Gavilar ruminate on how he moved away from trusting people (even if they were snakes like Ialai and Sadeas) to manipulating every soul about him, yet it never occurred to him that his success was due to people helping him, not the other way around.

It's infuriating since Gavilar is such a scumbag, but also sad too, in a way. Gavilar had so many people who were willing to think the absolute best of him and he pissed it all away. I really feel sorry for the people who invested so much emotionally in this black hole of a man.

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i enjoyed the books, but i have to say, FM feels a bit off.

not on the big parts; she still is a pacifist who has to fight against aliens who won't accept diplomacy, and some of her shifting there came from having seen the issue from the military perspective.

but FM always had a distinctive way of speaking. she used big words. like "“Constantly amazed by the toxic aggression omnipresent in Defiant culture”. And she was impeccably dressed. those parts of her are never mentioned in sunreach. she missed a bit of her unique voice.

I kind of took that as part of her having changed since becoming a full pilot. Most of the time we see her use fancy words is when she's talking about Disputer stuff. She didn't really feel the the need to talk like that now for obvious reasons.

1 minute ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Military power is in dalinars hands for now, but it's not like his subordinates won't disobey him to restore the proper, religious government if they think he's a real long term threat to it. 

 

Dalinar has been a threat in that view for a while now, since around the time he was excommunicated, and he's only been going further what with his learning to read and write. It doesn't seem to have caused him much trouble thus far, probably because the inclusion of Radiancy into modern Roshar has shored up his position, since he is the de facto leader of the Radiants.

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I also don't see how they'll go down well with the majority of citizens, especially as Alethkar doesn't have citizens it has subjects of the crown. That might seem pedantic but it reflects what political discourse is like at the moment- in general they don't believe in the equality of all mankind, they don't believe that an atheist can be ruler, they don't believe that slaves should be free. 

Judging from what we saw this chapter, at least some as Jasnah's reforms seem aimed at improving the lot of the common man, not just the slaves. If she can do that, they'll follow her.

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Even if a majority don't disagree in theory, which I can't imagine is the case, the rich and powerful who likely own many slaves along with their land would definitely hate this intrusion into their power and wealth, and as they're the ones with power it's their opinion that matters. 

The rich and powerful in Alethkar are weaker than they've ever been due to the war. The center of Alethkar is now effectively Urithiru, and pretty much all remaining Alethi power is concentrated there. That's not to say they can't cause trouble depending on the situation, but I doubt it would be critical enough to really shake Jasnah's rule, especially since their main rivals like Sadeas and so forth are gone.

6 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

@agrabes

And so the endless debate between reform and revolution continues. What could maybe be interesting is a rebellion that pushes Jasnah off the throne and either banishes her or makes her just give up on trying to fix society and going worldhopping to find a society that agrees with her views. 

I think the chances of a revolution are rather slim, since most of the military power in Alethkar is focused in Dalinar's hand and her reforms are probably going to go over well with the majority of citizens.

A very lovely chapter. It was nice seeing Kaladin with his family (Syl has settled in well) and Kaladin's change in attitude, especially around Lirin was a good change of pace. I'm not so sure about Kaladin deciding to become a surgeon again, since it kind of feels like it was more because he felt he had no other choice, rather than something he really wanted to do. I suppose figuring that out is part of his arc going forward.

I continue to love Navani's scientific discoveries. Can't wait to see them pay off one day.

8 minutes ago, Pattern said:

One more thing I totally forgot:

Jasnah plans to abolish slavery. This would be of utmost importance - first to get Roshar into the modern ages economically, second to make peace with the Singers - the former Parshmen - possible at all.

This was easily my favourite part. I really loved how Jasnah did not let Dalinar and Navani's reticence slow her down. She was perfectly right when she said history has a way of catching up with people, which is why they need to move forward.

31 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

lol, the Shin take aggressive neutrality to a whole new level.

I wonder if they're actually on Odium's side? They could have been for a while. It might also explain what happened to Szeth.

I love, love, love all this Cosmere reveal stuff we're getting now. Logicspren acting kind of like logic gates is a big deal, it could catapult them very far very soon depending on how they use. 

Humans getting closer to the Rhythms is another huge deal. I'm strongly suspecting that this will have something to do with the Sibling.

And Zahel. His picture is probably next to the word 'curmudgeon' is the dictionary.  Glad to see he's sharing some of that ancient wisdom, unlike another fossil some could name...

2 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

I wonder, Mraize says that the Investiture ties people to a planet through Connection, but it seems like it isn’t that simple. 
 

Kelsier as a cognitive shadow couldn’t leave Scadrial, but Felt the misting could. 
 

Not having a physical body is a huge impairment.

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Vasher, a Returned, has been to Roshar, back to Nalthis, and then to Roshar again with varying levels of Breath. Apparently with no big issue. 
The Elantrians don’t seem to have a problem moving around. 

Their Investiture belongs to them, not anyone else.

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So certain powers tie you more strongly to the planet? Radiants have a spren bond which certainly makes a difference, but Mraize says you can’t even take stormlight in a gem very far.. Weird. 

Stormlight being Connected to the Stormfather is probably the issue.

3 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Eh not really . We are just used to such names. I mean Amazon for example , not really all that fluffy a name if u think of it. 

Amazon is the name of a forest, river or mythological warriors. Ghostbloods is a gang name.