I'mAStickFanClub

12 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I'm pretty sure Kaladin outranks him, at least. 

But Kal is in House Kholin now not house Sadeas. They talk about him having lands by some river near the capital in OB (sorry I don't have an exact quote). Basically he is Adolin's banner-man now and wouldn't be eligible to become Highprince of another princedom.

Maybe he'll be the next Highprince Sadeas. With Torol and Amaram both dead, Ialai (and presumably her inner circle) exiled in disgrace, the officer causalities from the battle at the end of OB, and many Brightlords captured by the Parsh in occupied Alethkar it is possible that Roshone is the highest ranking Brightlord in House Sadeas left. Hope its not the case though for Kaladin's sake.

Mr. T and Navani were my bets for the next two bondsmiths (for Cultivation and the Sibling respectively). Never really had much in the way of text evidence, just intuition. That being said, if there were a team of fabrial experts running around trying to unlock the secrets of Urithiru it would make sense for one of them to find and bind the Sibling. So if not Navani then maybe one of her ardents?

Interesting framework. Personally I would put scholar for Jasnah's character instead of Atheist because it seemed to be more important to who she seems to be. Also Shallan's What-in-the- is clearly her "take a memory" ability. Its never explained but it plays a huge role in how effect she is. The split personalities are just her brain trying to cope with extreme trauma (See Dissociative Identity Disorder).

11 hours ago, Cosmé said:

It’s possible that we’ll see the Virgin church try something. The main obstacles to them seeking power are their bad reputation since the Hierocracy, and the fact that Ardents are owned by their lords, and probably have much stronger ties to them than the central church. They also don’t have any military power. The society is very conservative but there is no history of church control over the state since the Hierocracy. Jasnah is and always has been an atheist, but that doesn’t seem to have been a major problem for her politically. A problem yes, but not a serious one. She’s still spoken of, even in Way of Kings, as one of the most powerful women in Roshar.

On the subject of coups, this is basically exactly what Sadeas was attempting. Didn’t turn out well for him though...

One person we know who is trying a coup is our friend Mr T. I wonder if we will see him find religion soon.

Yeah that is frighteningly plausible. I am a little upset I didn't already think of it myself.

4 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

I love conspiracy theories but this one is completely out of the league, as to the protagonist of this theory is Kaladin, who bonded a honorspren. Now as soon as Kal even thinks about doing this the bond will be snapped (This almost happened when he turned against Elhokar), as soon as this happens he cease to be a KR anymore and in that case, dalinar can imprison him easily or Jashnah (who is considered his bride to be by other conspiracy theorists) will have him soulcasted into dirt without any trouble. 

This conspiracy theory really doesn't hold any ground to support it. HOID is the one who invented Bitcoin might be a better theory than this   

The theory isn't about Kaladin taking over. He won't. Its about people's justified paranoia in the aftermath of Sadeas and Amaram combined with their lack of information about this up-jumped darkeyes slave who is becoming quite popular and appears to be VERY well positioned with his men in the tower leading to misunderstandings and conflict.

12 minutes ago, Cosmé said:

The Dictator’s handbook is a good book.  

Under the “rules for rulers” proposed in the book, Kaladin would not be a good candidate to lead the radiants. Currently, the Knights Radiant and Alethkar are one in the same, as the Alethi center of power is also in Urithiru, and most of the Radiants currently gathered are loyal to the Alethi ruling house. To rule, Kaladin, or any other successor, would need to take control of the keys to power, who are the Alethi generals, high princes, high lords, and ardents. Kaladin, while technically a light eyes while using the Syl blade, is still socially a darkeyes. He also has forged no political relationships with the keys to power. He would replace hem, and they know it. The Alethi armies could destroy the bridge men, and as Dalinar reminds us, Shard Bearers can’t hold ground.

Jasnah would be a much better candidate to seize power, because she has legitimacy, connections, and political savvy. The Highprinces probably trust her more than Dalinar. Of course, she’s already number 2 in the Alethi/Urithiru power structure, and I don’t think she wants the power. Remember, while these rules apply very well to real politics, they don’t apply in a fictional world unless the author wants them to.

It is a good book. Thing I have to keep reminding myself is that the Alethkar government's keys to power are not going to perfectly match up with ones in our world. For instance the military serves dual purposes of rules enforcement and force-projection/defense which are usually separate keys. Also instead of having a proper bureaucratic class or tax collectors they have the Ardents which collects fees from the nobility for their use of soulcasters as a revenue base. This is the line of weakness in the current regime that could be most easily exploited. The church has denounced both Jasnah and Dalinar as heretics and one would imagine that they would be happy to see the two of them removed from the picture. Someone like Kaladin, who has an excellent reputation among the military rank and file (obviously you'll need to purge any commanders and highprinces loyal to the old regime), and who could make public shows of Vorin devotion could in theory use the church to attain legitimacy after a takeover. Though Kaladin will never pull something like this I am nearly certain that the church will at some point in the series try to overthrow the Kholins and install a figurehead sympathetic to their interests.

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I disagree with the notion the other orders won't be expanding soon. There's already a bunch of people who have been bonding spren and there will probably be more now that Nalan isn't trying to kill every surgebinder. Shallan has squires already too. I could see the Elsecallers having stalled recruitment due to the lack of charisma Jasnah displays. However, I don't see us having another book with this level of conflict with Odium having only the handful of Radiants we have now and just some extra Windrunners.

They will probably start expanding, but the Windrunners have the advantage of a significant head start. Also they were the most numerous order back when the Knights radiant were originally founded.

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

Of course not, Jasnah's a logical individual.  I'm sure she'd do her due diligence before preemptively assassinating Kaladin.

You know, get a taste for his personality, likes and dislikes, take him out somewhere alone to get some privacy for her examination, try to get as much face-to-face interaction with him as possible to maximize information gathered, and just overall get to know him better.

Wait, what was I talking about again?

The undeniable logic of wanting a hot piece of the brooding bridge captain... I think.

7 minutes ago, mosaab said:

She's the king's sister, the entire kingdom should be grieving (or at least make a show of it). There should be investigation, adolin goes about flirting with shallan like the news mean nothing to him.

 

Maybe the charges of heresy had more impact than we were led to believe. The Ardents, as the religious authority in Alethkar, would have been responsible for leading the country in prayer and mourning following the death of a princess. For Jasnah they probably wouldn't bother.

2 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

The highprinces will not follow Kaladin. The kings and queens will not follow Kaladin. So in point of fact, Kaladin is actually in a terrible position right now to take control of Urithuru. It would be a political blunder on par with the assassination of Julius Caesar.

Kaladin would never even think to take control. And if he did, you are of course correct that it would go south immediately. The highprinces would reject his rule and send their forces to depose him. He might be able to hold the tower for a while with the men loyal to him now if he was clever and ruled like an autocrat, but eventually they would seek outside help from places like Azir, and he would be killed or forced out. Your reference to Julius Caesar is a good one, but at the end of the day he is still stabbed to death in the senate. This would still likely mean the end of the Kholins, so the usurper's position being untenable after the coup would be a cold comfort to the royal family. And that is basically what my theory is about. If the threat is perceived as real by the important political actors and they act on it, it can have real and dire consequences, even if Kaladin is neither ambitious enough or stupid enough to go through with it.

I am mainly talking about Jasnah here. She is a politically savvy person and will likely make a great queen but she doesn't have perfect information. No one does. She doesn't know Kaladin at all really. Only that Dalinar trusts him. But Dalinar trusted Sadeas right up until his betrayal nearly doom their entire house. So she has to act on incomplete information which is always a gamble and it COULD go very badly.

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

A month ago I would have agreed with you. A month ago I would have loved this kind of discussion. But after Oathbringer I feel like that's just wasted effort because the author doesn't care about those kind of plots, you can feel how he avoids those kind of character confrontations, in how much the information between the cast is shared off-screen, in how much these characters don't know about each other and worse don't even try to discover. How is it even possible for jasnah to return and not have one direct and private conversation with kaladin? It is ridiculous to her sensibilities as a political actor.

You can see no more proof of this than in how Seth joins our cast of heroes and nobody has any kind of actual human response, the same thing when jasnah dies and everyone react like a shipment of food was lost, and not that the kings sister has been murdered.

 

Some of the interaction did leave me wanting more. I was one of the people that got annoyed at how much infighting Rand and his allies did in Wheel of Time and even I wanted more conflict here. Almost makes me want the SA novella to be about intrigue in the tower instead of Wandersail, and I LOVE Rysn.

35 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

Dude, you make some good points, but I'm afraid that all you've done is thrown the Jasnadin shippers a giant bone

That is NOT what I meant by "take care" of him. 

So I was reading The Dictator's Handbook and was suddenly struck with a horrible thought. Kaladin is PERFECTLY positioned to take control of Urithiru and Alethkar from Dalinar and Jasnah. We know that he would never do this because we can see his inner thoughts, but the other characters can't and so might assume that the picture of him as the devoted and incorruptible scion of Dalinar is a facade (like Amaram's was) and act accordingly. Here are the facts as I see them:

1) Kaladin is the most potent warrior among the Radiants when it will count.  This is straightforward, not only is he the only one with military training and a shardblade (sorry Dalinar) but he is shown to be a brilliantly gifted fighter in addition. You can (and probably should) make the argument that Jasnah would be more useful on a battlefield with all she can do with soulcasting, but when facing other Radiants who are resistant to soulcasting because of their investiture, the edge goes to Kaladin.

2)The Windrunners are the only order in Urithiru with multiple Radiants. This is not likely to change soon either. Rather, they are likely to expand their lead going forward based on their efforts at recruitment.

3)The Windrunners have dozens of squires to supplement their ranks. Aside from Shallan's three, they are the only order with squires at all and having a bunch of people who can surgebind is the sort of thing that might be useful.

4) There are 1000-ish bridgemen with top notch military training, equipment, and discipline. Moreover, they serve as the only bodyguards for Dalinar, his family, and some of his important commanders and brightlords. We saw how that can be potentially dangerous in the scene between Dalinar and Elhokar near the end of WoK.

5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state.

At least some of these things should be known by the more politically savvy members of the Alethi court. Jasnah specifically has shown a proficiency at the cloak and dagger side of politics during her scene in WoR when she met Ivory for the first time and when the whole Renarin business at the end of OB occurred. It seems at least possible that she considers him a threat to her family dynasty and is contemplating a way to "take care" of him. That is a worst case scenario, but it seems unlikely to me that there won't be some sort of conflict in this area. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

4 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

"Because of its strong affinity for oxygen, aluminium is almost never found in the elemental state; instead it is found in oxides or silicates. Feldspars, the most common group of minerals in the Earth's crust, are aluminosilicates. Native aluminium metal can only be found as a minor phase in low oxygen fugacity environments, such as the interiors of certain volcanoes " Barthelmy, D. "Aluminum Mineral Data". Mineralogy Database. Archived from the original on 4 July 2008. Retrieved 9 July 2008.

I am a chemist myself, I know aluminium is very reactive with oxygen, but finding some of it native in low-oxygen environments makes sense. As we have different texts contradicting each other, we may dig deeper in research, or agree to let it be a maybe. At this point I don't know for sure but it makes at least enough sense that it may happen in theory

Regardless ofwhether it actually works in real life, they had aluminium in the final empire without electricity, and I think I remember (probably mentioned in one of the era 2 books, because I can't find it in arcanum) that they dug aluminium from the ashmounts, so brandon at least believed my same source (which is on wikipedia, so it would be easily found by a writer wondering how a preindustrial society can have aluminium)

It is at this point I should apologize. In retrospect, it is clear that I came across as hostile and that was not my intent. I was a chem major for a while in college and I perhaps take it a bit too seriously. After digging a bit deeper and reading more (http://rruff.info/uploads/AM94_1283.pdf was informative), maybe sounds about right.

As to how the final empire had aluminum I am perplexed as well. The lord ruler could have easily gained knowledge of aluminum while he was invested with ruin's shard, but you can't find aluminum by burning steel or iron so it seems like it would be infeasible to collect aluminum from volcanoes given how rare they are even when the conditions are right. Maybe it was never supposed to be aluminum but silver instead.

"Brandon thought of having Vin burn silver rather than aluminum when captured in Kredik Shaw but decided that aluminum would be less abundant." -  Annotation for The Hero of Ages 60

Or world-hoppers. That explanation works too.

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i toyed  with this idea, it's one of the possibilities. It would however imply there is a second investiture sink element

native aluminium can be found in some volcanoes in low-oxygen environments, so rosharans may have discovered it; it is further backed up by claims  that during the final empire aluminium was mined from the ashmounts. Except there are no volcanoes on roshar, so there can't be that source of native aluminium. Maybe they got it from an asteroid and learned to soulcast it, or maybe it was a worldhopper, or even an herald

"Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth's crust, it is never found free in nature. All of the earth's aluminum has combined with other elements to form compounds. Two of the most common compounds are alum, such as potassium aluminum sulfate (KAl(SO₄)." - https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele013.html

So no, it is not found native in some volcanoes. Aluminum is difficult to smelt exactly because it chemically bonds so easily with other elements (mainly oxygen in the atmosphere or surrounding silicate rock). If you try to smelt alum like Iron ore the aluminum will literally burn away so it must be dissolved in solution and then subjected to electrolysis to get the pure metal.

The process of smelting Alum into Aluminum is very technical and energy intensive (if you're curious just google the Hall-Héroult process). It wasn't even discovered until 1825. There is a 0% chance that pre-industrial civilizations like the ones on Roshar would know about the Aluminum (and thus be able to soulcast it) unless they had help from a world hopper. It seems plausible that such a world hopper would likely not understand the implications of having aluminum with regards to shardblades, although that is just speculation on my part.

2 hours ago, Calyx said:

Currently, Szeth's idea of right and wrong is whatever Dalinar says; he isn't going to be some vigilante lawman in Urithiru. 

However, I think all of Shallan's brothers are huge liabilities for her in different ways, possibly Balat most of all. I do not think it is a good thing they are there, and I am really worried about the trouble they can cause Shallan. She has enough problems already, and I can see a myriad of possibilities from Jushu or Balat embarrassing her, the presence of her brothers pulling her back into the past (not a good place for Shallan), to the Ghostbloods using them as leverage. Hopefully, this will be a personal problem that Adolin can actually help with, because Shallan needs to fix her other problems on her own.

So this brings up an interesting alternative to my theory. It has been stated elsewhere that the Edgedancers are very therapist-y. Maybe Adolin can be the one to heal the brothers, simultaneously getting closer to reviving Maya in the process.

I believe that Szeth will try to execute Balat Davar, Shallan's oldest living brother, for the crime of murder during book four. Balat has a past of troubling behavior; going to blood sports just to watch the pain and violence, torturing animals to death, and even setting fire to the servant's sleeping quarters at the Davar manor. Shallan thinks he is better now that their father is dead and he is married, but we see from the WoK chapter from his viewpoint that he still needs to torture animals to relieve stress. Now he and the rest of the family have just been traveling across a civil war torn country in the custody of the Ghost-Bloods (not exactly stress relieving)  to get to Urithiru. It seems inevitable that he will cross the line at some point and begin murdering in the tower. Whether this is the influence of one of the unmade or mental illness the result doesn't change; Balat is a walking time bomb.

What will Dalinar say? Will he allow Szeth to pursue justice against his son-in-law? Will Kaladin try to stop it? Balat has missed all the changes towards a classless society, and so he will likely try to restrict his victims to Darkeyes. What about Adolin? I would love to know what everybody is thinking. This is my first topic post so hopefully the discussion goes well.

This topic has been fantastic! I can't believe all the great ideas everyone has come up with. It has got me thinking though about what each of the women mentioned have in common with Kaladin. Having things in common with romantic partners is pretty important and we haven't discussed it too much IMO.

The first place to look would be the other Radiants. They all have some sort of mental trauma that gives them problems in common. But to say that two characters are both broken and so they should therefore get together feels incomplete. The guilt that Shallan feels for killing her mother and father is not quite the same as Kaladin's survivor's guilt. The isolation and loneliness that Jasnah feels due to the charges of heresy and Vorin condemnation is not quite the same as Kaladin's isolation and loneliness due to the hero worship of bridge four. There needs to be something more to connect them.

The second place to look might be in a fellow soldier. Someone Kaladin might be able to commiserate with on the trials of the battlefield. Lyn and Azure both would have this type of appeal, and Azure at lest seemed to quickly develop a rapport with Kaladin along these lines. Their relationship felt strictly platonic though, and why wouldn't it? Fraternization is a big transgression and breach of professionalism in the military. Any romantic developments would have to fight against that programming.

Then there are the dark horses. These are super fun to ponder and speculate about but we don't know much about them and some of them haven't even met Captain McBroody-Face yet. Lyft, Rysn, Jennet, Tarah, Laral, and some others I am probably forgetting all fit here. Rysn is probably my favorite of the bunch just because she is just SO different from all the other female leads in Stormlight. With the Radiants being basically gods, having a plucky little merchant around is so fun and refreshing.

Ultimately I have difficulty deciding. My own logic tells me that Lyn, as a soon to be Windrunner and someone from the Alethi military, is the one with the most in common with Kal potentially. Also, I know a lot of people here wanted to see him end up with a major butt kicker, and another Windrunner fits that perfectly. She will probably be the one with the most proximity to him in bridge four and will have more opportunities to start something as well. But the heart wants what the heart wants and mine wants go go gadget flying wheelchair to happen SO BADLY. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks though. This turned out a lot long than I intended so I'd like to say thank you for those who stuck around until the end. I'm sending you your electronic cookie as we speak.

Hi everybody! This is my first real post so here goes nothing.

Kaladin developing a serious romance has one big obstacle to overcome IMO, his complete lack of a work-life balance. We see this in WoR when he has to be dragged kicking and screaming to ONE night out drinking with bridge four. Or later in OB when its Syl who has to push him to consider a romantic engagement with Shallan, where otherwise he would be content to forget about his attraction for her. The whole reason Tarah didn't work out was because he wasn't willing to compromise his work as a squad-leader. Thankfully Kal is surrounded by good friends that are more than willing to help him, but I expect we will see an arc where he learns to set aside time to just live before we get a serious relationship out of him. Hopefully that happens before the mid cycle break because I really want Kal to be happy. He deserves it.

Hello everybody. I have trolled this form since WoR came out and am only just getting around to making an account. Hope to have fun discussing my favorite author and his work with all of you.