lonola

5 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

A few people earlier were asking about Odium being the shard of Passion. I’m fairly certain that this isn’t true. Rayse’s continuing admonition that he was the shard of passion is what was weakening him, as we see from Sja-Anat’s and Taravangian’s chapters. Rayse didn’t want to admit that he was the Shard of Hate, he wanted to be the shard of Passion. So he kept acting against the Shard’s true will, and this erosion and dichotomy was what was weakening him. 

Yeah, I'm really curious how this worked out, because prior to Roshar it seems like Rayse's main deal was travelling around and attacking other Shards, which sounds extremely consistent with its intent of being God's Divine Fury.

Only after becoming invested in Roshar and developing a whole culture around worshipping himself does it seem like he started rebranding himself as being about Passion and the Void. This seems odd because it's the reverse of the process we've seen elsewhere, with the Vessel (seemingly) straying farther from the Intent of the Shard hundreds if not thousands of years after he took it up, rather than the Intent slowly consuming the Vessel and making their goals one and the same.

On 11/25/2020 at 7:17 AM, Golstar said:

Interesting for me to read this, as I had a somewhat different view of this: Rayse to me, was *too* focused on megalomania and victory. He wants absolute and unquestioning loyalty from his subject. He acts almost like a Dominion/Majesty shard. There is a scene in RoW where he is questioned by a minion, and it is made clear that while Rayse despises this act, the Shard likes it. 

So to me Rayse was too focused on his own ego and being the center of everything. He wanted to be responsible for everything - every victory, every defeat - as seen in his offer to take the pain from Dalinar. That's certainly part of Odium, but it's a just a facet. A shard wants the world to reflect it's intent (we see this very clearly on Scadrial and Nalthis). Rayse seemed to be hostile towards everything and everyone - to the degree where he did not tolerate many of the passions.

Yeah, I totally agree with this, the Sja-Anat interlude where that happens helps confirm it: Rayse cared too much about control and winning and loyalty, and while he talked the talk about passions, he was hypocritical about them and suppressed the passions of his subordinates. 

I don't know if Moash will still be a champion of Taravangian, but we see in him the totality of the passionless void thing that Rayse was pushing, which (to me) seems to be completely at odds with the "God's Divine Fury" intent of the Shard.

There is one still basically-unknown race of people with weird abilities related to Fortune unaccounted for, though.

Though we've only heard about their bad luck so far, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some flipside of that at times. It's just Kaladin never actually sees the shopkeeper to tell us if he has blue skin or other things we'd associate with Siah Aimians.

My hot take is that, to get around the "willing" issue, he could simply do the reverse of the Baby Theory. We know Dalinar plans to stand as his own champion, and so could Taravangian, personally, no tricks, not using his powers as a Shard at all.

He could try to force Dalinar to kill an old man who refused to physically fight him, a no-win situation that goes against Dalinar's oaths and all the principles he's been arguing about with Taravangian for multiple books.